shortridge

From a council's perspective, I don't know that much money would be saved, actually. You might be able to get away with paying your staff less (though current salary levels are a travesty, IMHO), but you'd have to hire more of them to accomodate the crush of Scouts trying to finish merit badges in four days instead of five. You wouldn't have to pay as much for food, power and utilities - though it's just 24 hours and three meals less than before. But you'd have to lower your camp fees, unless the SE has some incredible chutzpah, and so wouldn't be bringing in as much money on the front end. The only benefit I can see in such a change would be making it more convenient for parents and leaders who attend. It seems to me it would actually shortchange the Scouts by trying to compress the program into four days. That cuts out a whole day that a shooter has to bring up his score on the rifle range, that a nonswimmer has to learn the sidestroke, that a BSA Lifeguard candidate has to master rescue techniques, that a sailing student has to figure out how to untangle those blasted lines... ad infinitum. Perhaps if the council had an agreement to rent out the camp from Friday PM to Sunday AM to a private group, and thus get some income without having to pay staff, it would be gung-ho. But other than that, I don't see such a change being either necessary or desirable.

One method to get some Big Ideas flowing... - Pick up a copy of Backpacker magazine and fill out the "request information" card in the back (or request the info online). Get gear catalogs - tents, packs, climbing gear, clothing. Get tourism and adventure guide information - to Alaska, New Mexico, the Yukon, Africa, wherever. - Contact tourism agencies of neighboring states and ask for their basic travel guide, plus anything specifically on ecotourism or outdoor activities. - Get a copy of your local OA lodge's "Where To Go Camping" guide. (If they don't have one, ask them why the heck not?) - Make a list of every place and activity your troop has done in the last few years. - Gather all this stuff up and dump it on the table at your next PLC. Do a free-range brainstorming session, with the Scouts looking at the materials and tossing out ideas. Don't self-censor - any idea gets written down on the board for everyone to see, no matter how expensive or off-the-wall it may seem. (Do have a copy of the G2SS on hand to quash those ideas that aren't kosher by BSA regs - paintball, skydiving, etc.) - Once the list is complete and your ideas are exhausted, have someone type them up and make copies. Bring it back to the PLC and discuss, making a top 10 list. Have your SPL assign Scouts to research details about each of those top trips - basic costs, best time of year to go, skills needed, etc. - and report back. High adventure doesn't necessarily mean going to a HA base. For a young troop, it's best to start relatively small and closer to home, and work your way up. Some of the best trips will be the ones that your troop will design on its own - the prepackaged national HA base trips will be relatively dull in comparison.

Do you know what the theme is, yet?

"I do agree there are other things that need attention besides uniforms---but this is the UNIFORM area of the website. The subject was uniforms. In fact 33% of your posts have said don't worry about uniforms on the unform area." So everyone who posts in the uniforms forum has to be of one mind? No dissenting opinions allowed? I was speaking of your extreme sarcasm in your reply. There's no need to resort to those kinds of verbal jujitsu.

John-in-KC makes some good arguments for having a chaplain on summer camp staff or very close by. I've never had an experience, as camper or staff, with a camp chaplain. All services were run by the regular staff. Sometimes it was a case of "Hey, are you doing anything tonight?" but in some years, there were some enthusiastic staffers who took it upon themselves to organize services. Does your local camp have a chaplain? Is he or she on permanent staff or a local religious leader who volunteers? What are your experiences? And (to provide some context) how large is your camp?

Are harsh replies really necessary? If you don't like what someone else says, just say so, politely, and move on. This place is the virtual equivalent of inviting a hundred people over for a cup of coffee or piece of pie. Let's be as respectful online as we would in person.

- American Labor looks like two Andorians shaking hands. - Crime Prevention: It's a sign of a poorly designed badge that you have to have the name of the badge emblazoned on it. And how many police officers really wear whistles these days, except those at big-city traffic intersections? - Dentistry. Uhhm... okay... I don't get it. Wouldn't a tooth be simpler? - Entrepreneurship reminds me of a "Dora the Explorer" episode.

Generally speaking, kids like to fit in as part of a group. It's social conditioning and conformity. The young man who takes of his uniform as soon as he's with his girlfriend doesn't want to stand out. I'll wager that if he were a member of Lisabob's full uniform troop, he wouldn't wear jeans because he'd stand out there. That said, there are some folks who want to stand out, via extreme clothing, slogans, piercings, tattoos, etc. However, that's becoming so commonplace nowadays, it's almost become the standard... so kids are displaying those things to fit in rather than stand out. The uniform isn't the goal. It's a byproduct of having a program that's so exciting and interesting that Scouts are eager to wear it, and it's a method of group cohesion to help make the program exciting and interesting - a circular system. To put the uniform up on a pedestal and ignore other factors involved is to fail. And uz2bnowl - if you find anyone outside of Scouting who is criticizing the uniform, please post it here. I'd love to hear about it.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Thanks - that's very interesting. I just completed the Trainer course last month, and really enjoyed it. However, it wasn't easy - I bugged the heck out of my state's advocate for a year and a half about courses before finding something through my local council. The courses simply aren't available in a whole lot of areas - at least not here in the east. I heard all councils are supposed to have their own LNT coordinators/advocates very soon to help facilitate the process, but that's going to be slow going. I'd love to get the Master Educator training and teach some Trainer courses, but there's no way right now that I can commit the time and money to that. However, it does seem like something that a really gung-ho OA lodge could take up as a special project and do some work with... pay for a couple of folks (youth members and advisers alike) to go to NOLS with the promise that they return and run a minimum number of weekend Trainer courses over the next two years. It would pay for itself pretty quickly.

John, That's Standard 39 (not a mandatory standard, however). It reads as follows: A full-time or part-time chaplaincy service is provided by (1) A person who is recognized as a qualified clergyman or seminarian by his or her own church body and is 21 years of age or older. OR (2) An individual who is at least 21 years of age, possesses mature judgment, has a certificate of training from the Chaplain section of National Camping School, and is approved by the local council relationships committee/council executive. Their responsibilities would not include specific ordained responsibilities or tasks such as the sacraments. The 2009 camp standards and other such info can be found here, thanks to the Northeast Region: http://nerbsa.org/program/campschool/residentcamps.aspx

To answer the question: My local camp starts at noon on Sundays. Everyone's required to be there on the dot for a staff meeting. Uniforms required if you're a guide or running a program area orientation; aquatics staff can usually get by in t-shirts and swim trunks, but they have to have their uniforms on hand for a quick change before retreat and dinner. Everyone knows this schedule when they're hired, and I've never heard of a problem with it. Some staff members I used to work with did go to Sunday morning services on occasion. But most of us just went back home (if we lived close enough) and crashed on Saturday night, waking up barely in time on Sunday to get back to camp. Even if we were religious, we were generally too exhausted to even think of getting up early to sit in a pew. Let's look at a hypothetical example of a Jewish staff member who wants to attend Friday evening services at the local synagogue. Fridays are generally the big special program and closing campfire nights, where everyone's needed. I would hope that if the staff member approached the PD or CD and explained his situation, there would be some sort of accomodation made. Perhaps the staff member could take Friday night off instead of a night earlier in the week. Perhaps he could pull some extra duty somewhere to help make up for his absence - like volunteering to build the campfire during the day. On the other hand, the weekly start-of-camp meetings are very important for making sure everyone's on the same page, and I can understand why the CD might be reluctant to let people come in late. There's information that needs to be shared (broken showers, weather reports, trail closings, unit counts, special visitors, etc.). But if a Scout plans it out in advance and discusses his worship situation with the director ahead of time - not a week ahead, not the day before - I would really hope that things could be worked out.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

ASM, Depends on how your lodge handles things. If conversions are Lodge functions, then the Lodge Chief should handle it; if they're run by the chapters, then the chapter chief. I think that would be a reasonable approach. BadenP, Forgive me, but I'm confused. Are you in favor of having the Scout turn in his sash, even though it would embarass him and other Scouts would find out anyway? If that's your position, how is that result any different from writing up a brief item for the newsletter, without names?

BadenP, If the Scout is told to turn in his sash and wait until the next ceremony, as you advise, then word will get around as well - perhaps even more quickly, as rumors spread faster than most lodge newsletters I've read. :-) I think the youth leadership is perfectly capable of handling such a situation, if they deem it necessary to be "handled" at all. Frankly, the only "Brotherhood problem" my lodge ever faced was the opposite of what ASM915 described - in increasing the number of brothers and sisters who sealed their membership. I also think the acronym that John posted is universal in its application. It's good advice all around. No need to criticize, IMHO.

BadenP, John suggested writing up the incident, sans - without - a name.

What, nobody "accidentally" slipped one of the new handbooks into their backpack? ;-) The position of Leave No Trace trainer is going to cause some massive confusion between certified LNT Trainers (capital T), who have gone through a two-day course, and unit trainers (lowercase T). Surely they could have picked another word - coordinator, organizer, chief, leader, consultant, instructor...

Are we approaching (or past) a spinoff point? BrentAllen wrote: "Shortridge's post made it sound like ALL staff at Summer Camp teaching MB classes had to be 18 and had to be approved MB Counselors, which isn't the case." Actually, that's exactly the case. All counselors have to be 18+ and approved. That's as clear as day. There are counselors and there are assistants. Assistants are not counselors. They should not be independently teaching a merit badge, nor reviewing completion of the requirements. That's the purview of the counselor, who must be 18+. Assistants can teach a particular skill, or help coach Scouts, or even run part of a class. But they are not counselors. Yes, the reality at many camps is in direct conflict with ACP&P. I first signed off on blue cards at age 13, as a CIT teaching Basketry and Indian Lore. It broke almost every rule in the book, and it was never challenged by anyone - leader, Scout or camp inspector. But that doesn't mean the rules are wrong.

Northbell, Interesting question. What rank is your Scout at, and how old is he? He may simply figure he has plenty of time to do the "un-fun" stuff later. Are there certain badges he's not interested in earning (the Citizenship cluster, Personal Management, Family Life, etc.)? You could have been describing me at one point in my Scouting life. The OA and summer camp staff became far more interesting than my troop around the time I turned 15, and that's where I poured my energy into. I just wasn't all that hot on what I saw as the dull routine of advancement and unit leadership when I could lead and teach on a much, much larger scale that was both more exciting and innovative - I'd already been there and done that, countless times. Earning Eagle didn't even rank in my top five priorities once I hit 16. I did get some pressure from my unit leaders and other Scouting mentors to go for Eagle when it was clear I wasn't interested. (I even got an offer for the troop to do an Eagle project for me when I was away working at camp - I would barely have had to do a thing.) But truth be told, the more I was pushed, the less interested I became. Be gentle when you talk with this fellow (as I'm sure you will).

BrentAllen, That's new to me - sounds like a council-specific policy. So the Scoutmaster is supposed to be a counselor for every merit badge taught at camp? Or else refer the Scouts to a registered counselor to re-do the requirements? Per Scouting.org: "The same qualifications and rules for merit badge counselors apply to council summer camp merit badge programs. All merit badge counselors must be at least 18 years of age. Camp staff members under age 18 may assist with instruction but cannot serve in the role of the merit badge counselor."

You're right in that you don't have a say before the fact. But you can certainly make your voice heard.

While I doubt it's ever happened, anywhere, a Scoutmaster could certainly find out who the counselors were going to be at summer camp simply by asking. By the end of "staff week," the program director should know who's going to be teaching which merit badges during which weeks. (If they don't, that's a red flag of gigantic problems ahead!) You can then check those names against your council's registered merit badge counselor list. I can guarantee you they won't match up 100 percent. You can also ask for details about the counselor's experience and background. If you have concerns about a badge being taught by a sub-par counselor at camp, a SM certainly does have the ability to stop a Scout from from proceeding. Make your concerns known to the camp leadership as soon as possible. If you get no recourse and have legitimate, serious concerns that a Scout did not meet the requirements or that a counselor was not registered, refuse to sign the blue card (or equivalent) at completion. A unit's standards should not be lower simply because it's at camp. # # # Psst, psst: Want to throw your camp and council into a tizzy? - On your first day of camp, when you're walking around on the typical tour, ask each area director you meet how many of their counselors are under 18. Keep a list. - At the leaders' meeting that night, inquire just how these underage counselors - 14, 15, 16, 17 - got council approval. - Ask just how the camp met national standard M-73 ("Staff members are trained as merit badge counselors ... A letter from the council advancement committee is provided approving merit badge counselors."). - Demand that the camp provide 18+ MBCs to meet its obligations to the chartered organization.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the ACLU generally represents people who have been affected by a given situation. A person suing has to have legal standing to do so. Someone in Kentucky can't sue a local government in Wyoming just because they don't like a law.

Running a summer camp is like running a small city, from top to bottom. So you're going to have some problems, especially in the first week ... supply shortages, burnt food, scheduling snafus. That just comes with the territory. The real question is how the staff handles those problems. - Short-staffed at the waterfront? The camp commissioner, program director or camp director comes down and helps out until they've found another staffer to fill in. That's a safety issue. - Lost Scouts? Yeah, Scouts are going to get lost at camp - nothing new about that. But the fact that the staff didn't file a trip plan and didn't follow proper procedures for a lost camper is very troubling. That should be drilled in during staff week so it's second nature. - Ammo shortage? The shooting sports staff should be well aware of this in advance. You can tell how much you're running through in a given day and then add it up. And .22 ammunition is easy to get - a staff member could have been dispatched to the local Wal-Mart on Thursday night or Friday morning, solving the problem. - I've never seen families turned away because all meals were sold. That's incredibly poor customer service. If 30 extra people show up without notice, yes, it might be a problem, particularly in seating. But if a family shows up that pre-registered, the camp director should have been all over that situation making sure they were fed. - The only paperwork that most staff should have to deal with are attendance sheets and blue cards or their equivalent. It takes perhaps 10-15 minutes a day if you stay on top of it during the week. They may be stressed, but paperwork shouldn't be the cause.

When you say this happened again, was it with the same "counselor" or the same Scouts? If the SM explicitly outlines the MB process and points the Scouts to the website, and they're deliberately finding someone not on the list, it sounds like they're trying to pull a fast one by finding an "easy" counselor. That may not be the case, but there's really no other reason to do something like that. If it happened again with the same counselor or Scouts, the SM should not in any way allow that person to sign off on the requirements. The Scouts should have to re-do the work, as necessary, with an approved counselor. The Scouts should know better. You don't get credit when you don't follow the rules. If a foot is put down, THAT lesson will be learned, trust me. That's one of the reasons why the SM has control over that process and is supposed to provide a name or several, to maintain quality control. If there's an approved counselor who's dodgy or sketchy, the SM can simply not refer the Scouts to that person. Simple and easy.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Hope this was a typo or misunderstanding: "... for 10 years he has also been the acting health and safety chairman for the council." You'd think after 10 years they'd take away the "acting" part, and give him the full job!

The AHG isn't just Christian-centric - it's wholly Christian: While AHGs mission statement is to Build women of integrity through service to God, family, community and country, we recognize that our overall mission as part of Gods family is the Great Commission, as commanded by our Lord, Jesus Christ. Can't get much more plain-spoken. That's in stark contrast to the BSA. The DRP explicitly spells out that religion is the province of the home and family's religious affiliation, if any. The plethora of non-Christian religious awards alone makes that evident, even if you missed the DRP. It makes me wonder why the AHG would enter into an agreement with a group that does not share its goals, unless there's some sort of tacit "understanding" at work there from the BSA.