shortridge

Sounds a wee bit silly, IMHO. Unless National is going to change the program "nameplate" (the pocket strips that read "Boy Scouts of America," "Venturing B.S.A.") to one common name, you'd still have to produce and sell two types of shirts ... which would largely eliminate the convenience and cost savings for National.

I second hotdesk. Try showing them photos of your Cubs at camp last year.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

... and his friends will both enjoy teaching him and get a lot out of it themselves.

Judy, Some people do prefer to put soft or leather "grips" on the upper parts of their hiking sticks. Some prefer rope loops or leather thongs that you can loop around your forearm (similar to contemporary trekking poles). Some people say you should wrap it in rope, which can then be used for emergencies. Personally, I'd be skeptical of using it for rescues, because my hands sweat a lot and that damages the rope. They can also decorate them with metal medallions - there are plenty of Scout ones around. But it really depends on the interests and style of the boys. Have them test-drive a couple models first. Kudu has a good page with practical uses for staves that might interest your boys: www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/staff_use.htm(This message has been edited by shortridge)

I'd think that the VOA acronym would be avoided to try to head off confusion among folks who think that it's the Venturing Order of the Arrow. There's already that problem with the Corps of Discovery among some people.

SCUBA would seem to have a fairly big industry behind it, which apparently counts for a lot in developing new merit badges. (See: Materials, Composite.) Going snorkeling or free-diving, by contrast, is fairly cheap.

If it's all right, I'll cross-post this comment that I posted at the badges-that-should-be-eliminated thread. I'd say it largely depends on the counselor and the resources available. Some "camp badges" are excellent. One of my council's camps has a great sailing program - it's located on the Chesapeake Bay. The other usually struggles with sailing, as there's very little wind that comes up the creek. It's great for paddling, though. IMHO, camps should pick a few merit badges that best fit their layout and resources. If you try to offer everything under the sun, you'll just become a mill. But if you specialize and put effort into a few excellent programs, you'll get a really good reputation. I'm not a betting man, but I would wager this: Chances are if your Scouts are getting a sub-par merit badge program experience, the class is being taught by someone aged 15-17, whose experience with the subject could range from master-level to "I skimmed the pamphlet on the walk over from the dining hall." I know that as a 14-year-old summer camp CIT who was "teaching" Basketry and Indian Lore, I didn't do the Scouts in my classes justice. I knew that back then - I was assigned to teach them with 12 hours' notice - and I know it now. But by the time I was an area director at 18, I knew the skills and the program inside and out. There are exceptions to every rule, of course. I knew quite a few "underage" camp counselors whom I would trust with my life, let alone teaching a Wilderness Survival class. But generally speaking, we do both staffers and campers a disservice by putting inexperienced, poorly trained teenagers in charge of merit badge programs that we require an experienced adult to counsel away from summer camp. My best advice is that if your Scouts are complaining about the quality of the program, and you get involved, the camp should take it very seriously. Especially in these times, they can't afford to lose a paying customer. Make your concerns known. (This message has been edited by shortridge) Added: I'd love to see IM_Kathy's camp! My camp offers such "open" programs as well - open swim, open archery, open rifle, open boating, etc. - but they're generally swamped. And there's no limit on the number of badges one can take. (There are four program periods, but you could squeeze in five if you signed up for Astronomy at night.)

"Log boat races in swollen creeks..." I hope you're not planning to put your Cubs on those log boats.

I'd say it largely depends on the counselor and the resources available. Some "camp badges" are excellent. One of my council's camps has a great sailing program - it's located on the Chesapeake Bay. The other usually struggles with sailing, as there's very little wind that comes up the creek. It's great for paddling, though. IMHO, camps should pick a few merit badges that best fit their layout and resources. If you try to offer everything under the sun, you'll just become a mill. But if you specialize and put effort into a few excellent programs, you'll get a really good reputation. I'm not a betting man, but I would wager this: Chances are if your Scouts are getting a sub-par merit badge program experience, the class is being taught by someone aged 15-17, whose experience with the subject could range from master-level to "I skimmed the pamphlet on the walk over from the dining hall." I know that as a 14-year-old summer camp CIT who was "teaching" Basketry and Indian Lore, I didn't do the Scouts in my classes justice. I knew that back then - I was assigned to teach them with 12 hours' notice - and I know it now. But by the time I was an area director at 18, I knew the skills and the program inside and out. There are exceptions to every rule, of course. I knew quite a few "underage" camp counselors whom I would trust with my life, let alone teaching a Wilderness Survival class. But generally speaking, we do both staffers and campers a disservice by putting inexperienced, poorly trained teenagers in charge of merit badge programs that we require an experienced adult to counsel away from summer camp. My best advice is that if your Scouts are complaining about the quality of the program, and you get involved, the camp should take it very seriously. Especially in these times, they can't afford to lose a paying customer. Make your concerns known.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Hal, So a council-run summer camp is going to continue at Goshen in non-Jambo years? I had though the camp would be converted into a true "National Scouting Center," open year-round for HA-type programs.

"Using Leave No Trace principles, participate in at least three backpacking treks of at least three days each and at least 15 miles each, and using at least two different campsites on each trek. Carry everything you will need throughout the trek." To accomplish this, a Scout Troop needs to leave early enough on a Friday to get in an average of 5 miles before dark, then another 5 on Saturday, concluding with 5 on Sunday. That assumes you are trying to make the badge possible without leaving school or without two adults having to take extra time off of work. Nothing says you have to split the mileage up that way. It's entirely possible to do 10+ miles on a Saturday (five hours of hiking at an average two miles an hour, which is a decent pace for experienced backpackers), giving you plenty of flexibility. That leaves you with five miles to split between Friday and Sunday. Very doable.

SSScout, Do you mean Cape Henlopen in Delaware? (We Delawareans don't have much territory to begin with - we don't want to cede any to Jersey!) Small world. I live about 15 minutes away from there. And the family campout is a great idea.

Age and guile...

As you've experienced, it's a slippery slope! If the troop needs the parent to come along to achieve the two-deep leadership role, then some accomodations should probably be made. They could come in the form of other parents volunteering to babysit the younger sibling, or in the form of the sibling coming as a "tagalong." But if you have enough adult leaders, and you don't need the father's presence, the answer should be a polite-but-firm "No." That seems to be the situation you describe. The problem is with the father running roughshod, not with the sibling. As with all things, there should be some leeway. If the sibling is a Webelos, for example, due to join the troop in a year or two, I wouldn't have a major problem with it.

Beavah - As a point of clarification, I don't believe NancyB specified whether the other commissioner she wrote about was male or female. The fact that someone is on a child abuse or child protection registry would be enough of a red flag for me to say "Woah." The other stuff wouldn't even come into play. As Eamonn said, you could always try another neighboring council. I know mine is having issues filling its Jambo contingents (though we're on the East Coast, a ways away from y'all).

I know this is from a year ago, but I just came across Stosh's statement and really read it the wrong way: "I have gone one plenty of outings where the adults mess up as needed ..." At first (and second and third) glance, I thought you were proposing that the adults screw things up so the Scouts can correct them. Come to think of it, that might be an interesting teaching technique - kind of like a "worst aid" demonstration.

If you're starting out that small, there's no need for an SPL. The lone PL will do everything an SPL would do.

This is a tragedy. But I agree with Stosh. It was completely avoidable. I hope the two-adults-present-in-ever-situation statement was a misunderstanding on the part of the reporter. Even so, the young man involved was 18 - an adult by BSA rules. Would the presence of another 18-year-old have changed what happened? My prayers go out to the families of all those involved.

From this Columbus Dispatch article, it appears that the Ohio Historical Society is trimming hours and may temporarily close some of its sites, including Fort Ancient, because of cutbacks in state funding. http://tinyurl.com/cpqfpv I think we can safely expect lots more such sites and parks, Scout-friendly and not, to be on the chopping block in the months to come as states hammer out their budgets.s

How would you envision Avionics as being different from Aviation?

Sounds totally logical to me!

I'm not quite sure why this is an issue since, as mn_scout said, they're removed anyway.

emb, I lack a background in risk management, so perhaps I'm off-base here. But count me as being just a wee bit skeptical about that assertion. If there's no such thing as an "unofficial event," then what's the point of having "official events," and going through all the rigmarole of charters, tour permits, medical checks, etc.? That can't possibly apply in reverse, can it? If a group of Scouts in the same troop were to get together and vandalize something or rob someone, could the victim sue the unit or council because its an "unofficial activity"? That just stretches the limits of my imagination a bit. Any clarification would be most welcome. ===== On topic, I just can't see National changing those rules. They've been part of Scouting from Day One. And think of all the overflow effects... no 16-year-old summer camp nature instructors taking students on a hike independently... no 17-year-old OA elangomats without adults on the spot... that's just rubbish.

AHHH. A roach headdress. That's much better. Sorry, my mind was tuned in another direction entirely. Thanks...

Eagle92 - it sounds like there's a really good story that goes along with your second quote.