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Patrol wants to find out about activity X. Asks SM about it. He/she says "I don't know, but someone from the crew just came back from there." PL talks to venturer. He/she says "Yep, it was cool. Hears what we needed to do to get there." PL gets idea in his little head. Gets his buddies to build skills and raise funds. Other scenario: new leaders cross over who are Wevelos IiI types. Venturer devotes his/her time and talents to explaining youth leadership ... perhaps by holding special "parents only" discussions 300 feet away from little Johnny. Parents get it into their head that they want the same for little Johnny. SM drops by for coffee. Boys lead. Other scenario: venturer masters a skill better than anyone in the community. Troop would like the best possible person to present on that topic. Venturer provides demonstration/counsels. Boys learn. Some other less skilled adult signs MB.paperwork. Yep, I can see why an SM wouldn't want that for his/her troop. It just gets ideas in boys heads ...

Oh, fer the love of commerce, ppl! Have you never looked at the back pages of Boy's Life? I used to spend as much time reading ads as I did memorizing the jokes and riddles! Never once did I misconstrue the levitating car plan advertisement for advice in one of Green Bar Bill's sidebars!

Boil some frogs and you'll understand. The idea is to get a volume of youth passing through from which a percentage will get comfortable with the notion of shelling out $700-plus-transport for a HA week in the following year(s). Much of this seems like the downstream effect of lackluster jamboree attendance relative to completely unrealistic goals -- assuming that 7% of membership would participate when never in history has more that 4.8% attended.

I know boys who don't like it but still go along to be with their friends. A couple of weekends a year, or twelve weekends in one year ... And yes Eagle is still available to them. There's one such boy in every bunch. If he mends gear, keeps the scout house clean, fundraises, lines up presenters for meetings, or masters first aid, I'm fine with it. For some scouts, camping is the side show to an otherwise full life. When that scout drags his buddies down to the lowest common denominator, (e.g., schlepping at momma''s house while she serves them up pizza and cannoli, and picks up after them ...) That's when I have a problem.

@@Stosh, you are 100 percent correct. BSA doesn't need to generate adult-oriented courses on this stuff. You point out the opportunities out there. There are probably some deserving young adults or youth who would, for a generous tip and free meals, walk a newbie through all of this stuff. And for challenge activities, professional guides are worth emptying the wallet (consider it making up for all those years not scouting ). What I'm saying: if anyone wants a generic program under BSA auspices, it already exists. It's called the trail to first class. Let adults walk it. Let the units they serve guide them through it. (Maybe give those JASMs some real jobs. ) Then, let earning that rank make a scouter eligible for Star/Life/Eagle, Powderhorn, Woodbadge, or whatever. Now, if you think T2FC, as delivered in a scouter's unit (maybe with a little outside help for new units) is not good enough to get adults on par with those basic outdoor skills, ask yourself one question: why are we wasting our boys' time asking them to go through it?

The OP was not asking about developmental psychology, and we're not talking about single-handed knot gimmicks (which I still only get about 30% of the time on the first try). He was asking about outdoor adventure training ... for which we seem to have a delusion that some three hour gear-and-lecture plus training weekend will get an adult from 0 to 60 (60 being where some CO would trust that the trainee has something to offer his kid). We all definitely need that basic class on developmental stuff ... if only to get whatever management-speak we've been burdened with over the years out of our heads. But even then, much of that can be gained by watching an alumnus of a green bar patrol keep everyone on task and enjoying themselves over a weekend. Heck, I still needed basic parenting lessons when my kids were entering scouting. (According to my kids, I could stand to take a refresher ) But ... earfuls of that stuff will still still leave you unprepared for what the wilderness has to offer. Why? Because none of that makes you a 1st class scout (the concept, not the patch). Read a handbook. Practice the handbook. Take your time. As needed, get help from someone who mastered a chapter. Get evaluated and accept feedback. When the time is right have someone you trust review your plan. Implement it. That is how DiL, with no prior experience in her youth because such doors were locked unto her, after five years was able to leave me and Son #1 to our vices and rest easy with two girlfriends in a wilderness recreation area for three days straight. We talk boy-led, but we often ignore that boys could also lead earnest adults. My SM in my youth had been "trained" in outdoor skills by some senior scouts from another troop. That, plus roundtables that spent minimal time on paper-pushing made him a pretty sharp cookie.

@@Hedgehog, I like your sense ... I think you may know what's coming from me next ... Here's how I would run it: Devise a reference book that would give a general outline of the basic elements of such an activity ... including things like citizenship and knowing your rights and responsibilities ... maybe in chapters for each element, and check-lists at the back to keep track of when a reader's mastered each. Offer chapter-length detailed literature for each element. Nothing fancy, just black-and-white, maybe a few drawings/photos, available online in basic text format to keep costs down. Some of the booklets would have essential skills like camping, first-aid, environment, fitness, citizenship. Others could be about elective things that depend on what's available in your area in terms of activity or industry. Arrange 1 or 1.5 hour weekly meetings for a month or two to practice the basic elements. This would include ordering maps/descriptions of nearby points of interest, and contacting land-owners who might be generous with their property. It might involve calling someone between the age of 11 and 111 who's done this sort of thing on a regular basis to come and coach for the duration. Assign one in every 8 people to double check mastery of skills in their small group. Task that one person with qualifying to take his/her patrol hiking and camping. You may want to segregate patrols by age, or not ... if grandpa and granddaughter are both novices and want to learn together, put them in a group who will likely welcome them without bias. After a it seems that a few of these patrol leaders have mastered some skills, task them with arranging a weekend and procuring a minimum of gear. Maybe the organization who is loaning you meeting space can help you with this. Shake-down the meeting before departure to make sure everyone has equipped sufficiently for a safe and enjoyable time. Enjoy that weekend. Reflect on what went well, what went not so well, what to do differently next time. Repeat monthly. Invite different "experts" on a will-work-for-food basis to teach a slightly different activity (backpacking, fishing, canoeing, wilderness survival, wilderness first aid). Have some of those experts available for personal instruction to any youth or adult who would like to explore the pamphlets on specific elements and master them in detail. (Maybe on a will-work-for-coffee basis.) Publicly recognize each person who masters those skills, youth or adults, possibly with a material reward like: Oval pieces of cloth embroidered with noble emblems. Require everyone to earn at least a few of these to the end that they officially qualify to take their patrol hiking and camping. Or, maybe round pieces of cloth for mastering specific elements in those little booklets. Maybe after so many little cloth medallions (say 21, or 24 if you think booklets involving marketing, pedagogy, and project management are necessary) you can give out a medal, Have a big party every now and than to recognize everyone who mastered a skill, maybe have the papers come in and take a photo when grandpa and his granddaughter get that medal. When will we stop trying to re-invent the wheel?

@@ianwilkins, thanks for pointing out how much the BSA micromanages the simplest decisions a leader can make! We would do well to understand that some of our Youth Protection stipulations are based purely on image and not substance. But ... To clarify the adventure ... "Temps approaching zero" that would be centigrade, right? Zero Fahrenheit, I tend not to worry about youth sleeping because things are as dry as they are cold.

@@Hedgehog, I like the plan. Enjoy it. There is something to be said for having spent a weekend or two with a young woman before she decides to date your son! Yes, PDA is discussed in Venturing. It's fairly amusing. If you've got a crew of freshmen, they'll draft a bunch of regulations that they'll later come to regret. It does depend on the group. Growing up, ours spent a lot of time together ... as much as scouting. Most of us went to the same school, so we looked forward to weekend retreats. Mostly it was cabin camping. When it was tents, they borrowed the troop's gear. We built a lot of trust, just like a well-oiled troop does when the boys finally figure out leadership and integrity. So, we did a lot of stuff (mission trips, visit jails, etc ...). I could see us being trusted in large numbers on our own for a day (check-in at breakfast, dinner, and lights out). My kids' youth group .. not so much. Different schools, lots of newbies, etc ... So my kids use what they learned in scouting to make outings run smoothly. Anyway, I couldn't imagine our church tolerating much more than a 10:2 adult:youth ratio. However, I've seen other groups pull it off. But I think I steered us away from the point. What we are asking kids to do (e.g. the pic's from National with adults never too far away), is something that in the due course of time many will no longer see the point in doing. One of the images that needs to be part of the national promotion is the SM and ASM making for the nearest coffee shop while the boys plan an overland excursion to procure forgotten pierogies.

First, welcome! There is more "follow-your-heart" stuff to this than the program would lead you to believe. First, there is no harm in not getting a belt loop. Second absolutely encourage the parent and child to pursue this on their own. Finally, no, you don't have to bring the whole den again, but keep an open mind. If that family is into some sport that would be really fun for the boys to see, and few of you could make the time to join him, go for it!

Just from my experience ... There is a vast difference between a march in bear country and some paper-pushing homework assignment. Think about it this way: your sons friends friends have been denied the opportunity to practice outdoor learning and leadership, so they haven't been in a position of "overwhelming tasks" where they needed to trust someone else with details. They are denied the opportunity to practice servant leadership, so they become good managers ... maybe too good. The goofball doesn't go away when the girls are there around the clock. Just trust me on this. "Popular" young women also join venturing (I've fielded several on the homecoming court). Sometimes, they just a place where they can be goofballs without trying to impress anyone. I suspect the same would apply to middle-school women if we gave them a chance. As for toughness, how many young female settlers walked from one side of this country to the other? Don't doubt their ability, just regret their lack of training and conditioning. Make the girls' dads an offer. Pick a nice 15-miler for starters. See what comes of it. Enjoy your journey to the "dark side" we have cookies.

I understand. But, I can find ten times as many kids on our city streets unchaperoned for more cumulative hours a week than that. On a vacation week in Europe there are trains full of em gawking at the American kids being herded by their adult minders. You're presuming that the level of discipline among youth is always inadequate for them to travel in large numbers relative to the adults present. That's not the case. Now some infamous church gatherings in history have had a reputation for "more souls being conceived than saved", but that risk is hardly mitigated by excess adults. It just encourages our at-risk youth to avoid the influence of abstinent youth. If we cannot accept that our youth should arrive at a level of maturity to function independently overnight well before their 18th birthday, we will lose them as they go and exercise that developmentally appropriate function elsewhere.

Really @@NJCubScouter? Have you even counted the kids on a busy street corner unescorted?

Those boys deserved to be beaten with a stick. Or at least instructed that weekends like this are precious to trade in on anything but scouting. Son #1 and I have been fuming because our jobs tied us down while DiL was able to free up her extended weekend to go backpacking with here friends in in Dolly Sods.

The other thing is planning for storage. You want to plan for how much will be available, who you may have to share it with, etc ...

Welcome! By the way things get heated up, there's fire round here somewhere!

@@meyerc13, The problem with retaining Cubs is the same as the problem with recruiting Boys scouts. Boys don't know the "end game". They have no picture of what they'll be like at the end of the process. A t-ball player has a vision of being a baseball star like those guys on TV. He might never get there, but knocking one out of the park is always in the back of his mind. What does a cub have a vision of? It's often more meetings, more getting yelled at by even more adults, more pressure to bark for badges and medals, etc ... @@NJCubScouter mentioned the HA bases and others mentioned the various tech-outdoor opportunities ... Guess what every other youth organization worth their salt has? (BTW, check out the YMCA of the Rockies if you ever get a chance.) Your council has cope? My high school has a climbing wall and sends their freshmen to our council cope course for a day, so why should students bother bother with jumping through the BSA red tape for that bit of adventure? Our sportman's club is free to any interested kid on Wednesday nights. Every big ticket whiz-bang that BSA can offer, someone else can give to your kid with fewer meetings. Truth: most boys (and many girls, I figure) when they put a stick in a fire at age six are not imagining Seabase or Northern Tier or Philmont or the Jambo main stage. They are imaging they day when they and their buddies can put that stick in the fire without some adult badgering them ... that glorious day when they can walk off into the woods and laugh and play and build their own fort/sanctuary, swim in their favorite hole, and catch their own dinner and maybe be a hero to somebody, and then come home to a proud, trusting family and hang their pack at the end of the bed ready for their next outing. THAT'S WHAT WE OFFER. WHY AREN'T WE MARKETING THE TAR OUT OF IT?

I think you've found where you draw the line. The physical fitness follow-up can be done at home, if they missed. One of the other parents could plan a hike and cook-out for the boys who missed both days ... if they cared. Them not caring is not your problem. Getting back to the point where you're happy that a few boys nail down the program for advancement and the rest just tag along for fun, that's the only problem you have.

Asked, answered, but maybe not heard? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/VOS_Spring_2014_Exec_Summary.pdf

Well, most hiking and camping -- independently or not -- tends to happen outside. The "independently" and "with your mates" are essential to what I think is the pinnacle scouting experience. Putting that vision in every division of the BSA is a way of giving youth a benchmark so that they know when they've arrived. It's hard to say you've arrived when all you're doing is exploring careers, or supplementing your school's feeble curriculum, pitching in on a service project, or even hopping on that train to Philmont when some adult is holding your ticket. But when you've stepped out your door, having made a good plan, vetted by a caring adult who wished you well and asked to stop by for after-action review when you get back ... that's when you know you've started really scouting.

@@NJCubScouter, thanks for identifying the author. When he was here, he always went by "Mike", but usually got his last name or E-mail in the memo somewhere. Would have been nice to see a surname ... at least in a byline.

So much for promoting a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience as hiking and camping independently with your mates.

Regarding Taps ... when sung I prefer it without an instrument. Regarding respectfulness, my uncle regularly visits the village his platoon liberated in France. He tells me when he goes there, he and his buddies feel like they are "one of their own" to the villagers. So, I'd say if you teach your scouts to treat our fallen as if they are their own ... whatever customs they'd reserve for theirs, they also give to ours ... that would be the greatest respect.

Nobody speaking here: I have a camp-box specifically for family camping trips! Technically, my wife's uncle built it, so he's the nobody.

MIB, thanks for the update, and my sympathies. I lost Momma at about your age and it's been a bit of a lonely road. I guess it's that way for most folks, but introducing the kids (one of whom is following in her footsteps in so many ways) to her from this side of Eternity is bittersweet. I would suggest that you have family and friends bring something for a scrapbook ... a quote, a story, a picture, or a patch/award she gave them. Something that helped them be a better person for having known her. Try to assemble it on a table at camp. The scouts can help with the collecting and glueing. Make a copy or two for different family to keep on their respective shelves. If there's a visitation evening, the boys are probably gonna want to all come together to pay their respects. Some of them might have never done anything like this before, so make sure that there's a committee member to explain whatever is customary for you all.