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@@Chisos, is it find-able via the index? If so, then at least the boys get an exercise in referencing.

They didn't have the patches, but in their minds their SPL was a senior who had been PL, and a buddy of his would routinely assist him, so that was that. Then among the rest they picked their PL. Can't remember if the older two stayed out of it or not. So, when you get down to one patrol, it's kinda like quantum mechanics ... weird things happen. The BSA "small" troop chart has an SPL with 3 PLs. (Although one may debate the probability of you actually having a full-blown NSP if you only have two other patrols, one of which is a venture patrol. With good retention and steady-state recruitment, that would imply maybe two cross-overs per year?) I tried to discourage our troop from having an SPL when they got back down to just 3 patrols. They would have none of it.

If there's no reference in the new scout's handbook (not even in the index), have the boy read about the patrol method, pick four things from there, move on. BSA's lack of clarity is not your problem.

@@jpstodwftexas, my first reply included: Depending on the terrain, foot can be more damaging than motor traffic. A well-fueled vehicle can encourage boys to take the long way around and avoid ripping up sensitive areas. Regarding the "If you're questioning yourself ..." argument, I generally agree that you might be asking for one more person to say "No" in your place. But sometimes questioning yourself is a way of increasing the activities level of safety and benefit. For example, in advance of foul weather, we have a shake-down to review our next move. A "no go" decision is always on the table, but I'm not asking someone to make that for me. I'm asking what's our plans B, C, and (sometimes) D? Are we prepared to implement them? And, will they mitigate risk? I would also think of it this way: if you were doing an activity, who are the boys whom you would trust to safely execute that activity? I might not want my scouts pulling out a football or Frisbee (the source of most camping-related fractures in my experience), but might want them tying down gear and equipment for a back-country conservation project.

I'm wondering if this is a question for Bryan on Scouting or Scouting Wire. It sounds like someone once voluntarily purchased the license, but lacking positive reinforcement from the few scouts who used the frequency, decided to let it lapse without fanfare.

Red herring. No organizational chart exists for one patrol. Well,the closest we come is the last page of ILST, which has a "small troop chart" with one patrol leader, a new scout patrol leader, and venture patrol leader. It doesn't specify the minimum numbers for that organization, but we know that BSA allows as few as five boys. If those boys were all 1st class rank and, say 13 through 14 maybe a 16 and 17 year old, the logical inference would be that there is no new scout and venture patrol ... So trim those branches, but the SPL still remains with the ONE TRADITIONAL PATROL. And that's how boys who haven't even taken ILST generally conceptualize it! It takes a lot of adult intervention to get them to believe they don't have an SPL. I'm our case, we just stopped buying the patches.

As in, what happens in every patrol I've ever known.

A can't speak to O/A numbers. Our district's advisor seems to have a good number of boys at roundtable every month. Spring camporees in our district are hit-and-miss. Musical, track, and baseball season are the prime distractions. Come to think of it, I don't think they were done all that often when I was a kid. My patch collection backs that up (more from fall camporees and Klondike). Do you have crews in your district? I know many venturers are arrowmen, and many area summits are also in the spring. There are some young arrowmen across the nation who are put out that their no access is granted female colleagues who are first class scouts (the concept, not the patch). I can't imagine this having a big impact, but when your talking about that one rare talent for a ceremony team, who knows? Your best bet is for your son to call around and see if there are three more guys who can just come out for the evening.

In one sense I agree. It's already for a "select few", so why call it a troop thing? On the other hand, we're talking older boys who can probably get a hold of a vehicle and (like more than one scout I know) go off-roading with his buddies/girlfriends and break its axle in a ravine or get it buried in mud above the wheel wells ... then, to avoid getting the 'rents angry, radio his other buddy to grab the tow truck from the fire hall ... thus getting his buddy in trouble when the chief sees that one spot of mud that was missed ... but no entry on the requisition log. I'm just saying sometimes sheltering the boys can cause the harm you're trying to avoid.

Nobody's tying your hands, but I would strongly suggest you get everyone in the same room and decide what's best for the community. Just because most of the boys are not Roman Catholic, scouting still may be better served by that CO (e.g., space for meeting/storage, your families might rather not have the boys near a bar, etc ...). On the other hand, splitting might divide your scouters into two packs. That's not always bad. Right now the Catholic boys aren't among your membership, but maybe church parishioners might step up and do more to get such boys involved in scouting if one pack was more secular and the other had a more religious bent. Whatever you all decide, try to do it while maintaining the best of terms.

Of you're asking, there may be a little voice that is nagging you. But in case you give it a go ... Jeep with a purpose. Have the boys ... Talk top the ranger/property owner. Identify some potential conservation project. Plan an overnight. Learn about maintenance. Check the fluids Rules for safe conduct. Helmets etc ...

The committee chair and the charter organization representative need to get together and decide if the cubmaster should be replaced. Missed events and sales awards, however, can't possibly be all of his fault. Somebody besides the CM should have been responsible for the popcorn drive. Somebody else should have been in charge of the the B&G banquet. Yet someone else in charge of PWD. You all get together, set the date, and he shows up with a song and a cheer and appreciation for his den leaders. Den leaders ensure opportunities for boys to do what they need to do, Not sure how that's his responsibility. Basically, he's only dropping the ball on awards which the boys did earn. Solve that problem. If he's not ordering them. Appoint someone else to do it, and just get his signature on the paperwork.

Nobody's gonna judge your project, so anything goes. But, it is about time for spring planting, and I think boys still like dirt, so something along the lines of filling a spring planter or window box might be welcome. Ask the super if the boys can do something like that for your community. Another fun thing since Easter is on its way could be hosting an egg decorating evening with some shut-ins.

Thanks 'skip. You may or may not know that BSA has incorporated a Cyber Chip program http://www.scouting.org/cyberchip.aspxinto it's advancement.

Yes, I have bigger issues. But you're not the folks to fix those. I'm hoping that, however this plays out in my crew, others might be better prepared to handle it as their dual-registered youth turn 18.

You know the interesting things about YP trainers? They resulted in the course taking triple the time, but for that nominal fee of $5 ... They brought cookies and coffee. You got out of the house and away from that screen. They looked to see how many packs, troops, and crews were represented and tailored their presentation accordingly. They inserted little facts about known incidents (the former camp director had some great ones)! They did not ask you to take the course again just because you were in two different positions.

I know how long it takes me to do it. And it takes me twice as long to coach someone else to do it, which I usually have to do for a couple of adults. All of a sudden, I'm missing a playoff game. So, now let's pretend I have venturers willing to do this AFTER THEY'VE ALREADY MISSED THE FIRST HALF OF THE GAME DOING BOY SCOUT YPT TRAINING. It's a non-starter. In reality, there's no trading between YPT-redux and a b-ball game. The trade is between taking redundant training or making a few phone calls to grab some tarps, pull some steaks out of the freezer and meet in the woods, or on the shooting range, or lining up a climbing or whitewater guide.

As NJ, points out, this is a new rule for venturing participants as of last year. As a result 3/4 of my young adults in the crew concluded it was not worth the trouble. They can just hike and camp with young adults and whatever high school friends they choose without price of registration and be as many miles down the trail in the time they've taken the online training. The lawyering world is so out of touch with our youth that it's decimating us. E94, while I was ASM and Advisor I took either training every two years and let the other one lapse. I told the DE that's what I did and said "Make it work or I'm out." I actually didn't transfer myself or Son #2 to our new troop's roster to save them this hassle (among others). Likewise I employ SMs/ASMs on crew activities without requiring them to be venturing trained because I want their heads in the game with material that might actually forestall death. If they took boy scout YPT, they'll do just fine in my crew. Son #2 took the time for BSA YPT to ASM for me last year, took time out of his schedule for our church's YPT the week before last. ... What do you think he'll say to venturing YPT when he extracts from the spring break wilderness trip with his college fellowship? I'm asking the DE for a waiver.

Not Just any YPT. It's gotta be Venturing YPT! They also have to complete BSA adult application. But I've skated by with one app if the boy is also serving in a troop.

So, finally got my DE to find out why my crew's roster got pulled ... Turns out my 18 year-old's only had Boy Scout YP (since they were serving as ASMs) and they needed Venturing YP. And even more drop from the charter ....

Well if it were the Izod patrol. There was no love lost between me (grunge before they called it that) and yuppie wannabes back in the day ... So, like I concluded in my previous post: If your son thinks this will be emblematic of how the patrol operates, then he'll start a new patrol soon enough. This is where an SM guides a boy through to the heart of the matter. If it's a patch name, but his buddies are stand-up guys, get over it. If they have rough edges, help him point that out to the boys in ways that helps them do better next time. If these guys are keeping him on the outside, help him find guys who will want him in their circle. Sometimes an SPL is mature enough to guide a boy. Sometimes not. So, you may give the SM a "heads up" and make it clear that you don't intend to bring up every little thing, but since this simmered for more than a week, you thought he ought to know.

Importantly, you can collect receipts at the end of the campout, and -- if you choose -- tally the balance and write the checks then and there.

Unless someone comes forward with another printing attached to at least a few more pages (or even the lowly binding), we may not ever know.

Plus, BSA guard, COPE/climbing, etc ... some ASMs/Advisors are very busy getting trained in what might forestall death. They have precious little patience for "fluff" training. A training coordinator needs to get to know his/her audience and accept that some guys are gonna have to be brought in by stealth, others are gonna have to be rubber-stamped to make up for some IT snafu, others are on the way out the door -- so don't bother. Deal with those (or write them off) and a quick phone call to the rest once a year is the best you can do, and probably more than anyone else has ever done.

You all are beginning to make me think that a few rounds of British bulldog has more leadership training potential than most of what we pawn off as such ...