John-in-KC

Always remember... Be careful of what you ask for. You just may get it...and all the unintended consequences that came with it!

Beavah, I really like your last sentence. We, as leaders, owe these young people a top-notch product. To my opinion, that means using all our resources (gee, didn't I hear that in WB???) . Almost every Council has resources far beyond the ken of the local Troop... if the Scoutmaster is willing to get a young man to where he needs to be for the best of his growth and development. I think that's a problem we Scouters have. We're locked into "Troop XXX is the best for all boys." Well, it may not be. The young man may need structured co-ed more... and a Venturing Crew. He may be ready to come out of Scouting proper, and be in a LFL Medical or Police Explorer Post. Perhaps he's ready to commit to acting, and belongs on the Lodge C-Team of OA. My point? We who are leaders have to avoid myopia to our own units, and instead look to the interests of the young man. YIS.

I'm glad this thread is where it belongs! Now, I'm pro-life and a conservative Christian. Here's my question: Why isn't the unit promoting and rewarding positive values by teens to begin with? They want to press boundaries and experiment. Our job as Scouters is to support parents in their raising of their children. They are the ones accountable to God for morals, values, and ethics. Mrs Reagan said it, 20+ years ago: "Just say no." We have to help these young people develop the moral and ethical courage to say no. If you're from the Judeo-Christian tradition, you understand that sin began back in the Garden, and that failure in this life is a consequence of sin. To me, the issues involved when a young man is suddenly a father include: - Has he accepted biological, parental, economic, and moral responsibility for his actions? Those imo are legitimate questions to ask on an EBOR. - What are the familial decisions made? --If the mother's family rejects him out and out, and the young man cannot fulfill his responsibilities, then how does he work that through? --OTOH, if both families agree the young people should work together to finish their basic education, and join in marriage as adults, then a flat out policy denial of Eagle does not reinforce the ethics demonstrated by the family. uz2bnowl, you claim you started this thread because the situation had happened that a young Scout Dad had come to his EBOR. Had I been a member of that EBOR in any capacity, I would have asked for an immediate adjournment of the Board. The situation at hand calls for the best advice available. The DAC (and/or Council Advancement Chairman), the UC, and the District Commissioner should have been brought into the loop to give advice and support. In my understanding of parliamentary procedure, an adjournment is not a denial of action, it is a pause in the meeting (however long) for any number of reasons, including to to gather and weigh needed information.

Dluders, Thanks for the update. A couple of comments. 1) I think Troop Committee Challenge, conducting by a member of your District Training operating committee, would be a great thing for your committee to undertake. That prior CC was definitely crossing into your area of responsibility. 2) When I was a CC, I insisted the Treasurer be bonded. There are any number of incidents, including things involved with their youth, which cause Treasurers to make the books un-auditable. From several different youth-serving organizations experience, I'm sorta coming to a conclusion that Treasurers should not have their kids in the program anymore. 3) A Scoutmaster Conference is in order, but it needs to have solid open-ended questions. Look at the Scout, delve into his interests, find out if the basic outdoor program of Boy Scouting is the right vehcle for him. - Is there a Venturing Crew founded on theatrics in your area? It might be a better fit. - Have you thought of linking the young man up with your OA Lodge Ceremonial Team? Lots of acting opportunity there. - Maybe he's ready to serve on a Scout Camp staff? There's lots of room for thespians and hams there, and he gets a 24/7 Scouting environment. There's room for a big win/win, if we apply some thought and imagination.

From my mind, token depends in part on how we the Scouters encourage the PLC to treat PORs. If we allow a minimalist standard from the PLC, they will allow a minimalist standard for the warranted offices (gee, who else remembers that term?). If SMs and CCs demand high standards of the PLC, it should in turn set and keep high standards for the youth. My thoughts. YIS.

And if the young man marries the young lady in question? What do you do about SCOUTERS who have children out of wedlock? Give them "The Letter?" The one that bans them from lifetime participation in BSA? PM Sent to OGE and Eamonn...

BTW, remember what Bob White used to tell us: If the Scout has made it to the BOR, there are serious problems in a Troop if he does not advance. One of the truisms of the Advancement Method is "No Surprises!" A Scout should know he is at risk of not advancing well ahead of the SM Conference, let alone the BOR. The BOR is there as the Committee's check on the quality of program delivery! As for me, I have interactions with kids in my sons' unit not just at Troop Meetings. I see them at all manner of curricular and extra-curricular activities. It's pretty obvious, pretty fast if a young man is living the Scout Oath and Law

I think we've hit on a key point. The SM or Crew Advisor is the gatekeeper on many items associated with the Advancement Method. He or she has to get to know every young man rather well. He has to know and understand the program. He or she has to know his peers in the District... maybe Crew X is a better fit for the young man than Troop Y. At the same time, we need to remember we're trying to help Dluders deal with a concrete problem... not an abstract one. So, to Dluders: Have we heard your problems accurately? Have we answered your questions? Are we inspiring new questions?

Like Scoutldr, I want to see Cooking returned to the Eagle Required list. I'd be willing to see the standard bounce to 22 MB, or have an elective MB go away (total of 9 vice 10 now.) Like OGE, mandatory Scouter training and retraining, along with designing and implementing a new basic uniform. I'd like to see more active mentorship in the "Advancement Method." For Star and Life, instead of 1 SM conference at the end of the process, it's one at the midpoint for Star and Life. If the Scout takes his own time, he has to undertake a SM conference every 2-4 months. I'd like to see National dial back the G2SS... which in turn means they underwrite some things... paintball, contact sports for units chartered as Varsity teams, explicit clearance for road rallies for Venturing.

Dluders, As SM, you are the PROGRAM OFFICER of your unit. You have the inherent authority to invite folks to Troop Committee to discuss PROGRAM issues. May I recommend to you two meetings? First, have a private sitdown: The CC, you, the COR, your Unit Commissioner, and the District Advancement Chairman. Get this policy to the light of day. If your Chartered Partner and COR is at all caring, he can simply "wave the wand of Scouting ownership" and make this policy disappear instantly! If, however, your COR is less active and caring, in your role as SM invite the UC and DAC to an early Troop Committee meeting? They can then lay out why the Troop policy will risk this young man (if not others) in their implementation of the Advancement Method. PS: The Scouts' Dad would have every right to be irate if you tried to lay your current policy down. He would have every right to complain "of the record" to your COR, UC, and DE. The object is to make this a win/win. PPS: The Scout in question has not "technically" met the standard on his POR. If you or another signed off on it after his six months tenure, he has met the standard. IMO, any attempt to claim otherwise would be the kind of error which results in unit EBORs being overturned in favor of the Scout. Boards being overturned make unit Scouters look like fools. That is most certainly not a good thing.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Dluders, Let me see if I can summarize our feedback to you (it's a gift!) thus far: - Most of the Scouters here think this young Scout has met his six month "serve actively" requirement. - We have not discussed if he has met the standard of serving in a POR yet, and leave that for another discussion. We don't have information from you on this matter. - Most of the Scouters here want to know your Troop policy on "serve actively." Collectively, we think your Troop is at risk of losing any debates about the Scouts' advancement to Eagle. - Several Scouters here want to know why this young mans' Eagle Leadership Service Project passed muster with the SM and the CC, if internal policies are driving him toward a unit level rejection of his Eagle app for "serving actively." - Several Scouters believe a Scoutmaster's Conference between you and this young man is in order, the sooner the better. I'll add myself into this group. - The Scout in question BLAZED his way from TF-Life, and has slown down a bit to explore life. What does the "whole man" picture of this young man look like? What is wrong with that? YIS

Can you imagine the depth and breadth of activities that could be available? Music Theater Faith sharing Backpacking Camping Fishing Hunting Of course, could you imagine the 4 housing areas in both the dorm city and the tent city? It IS a shame the the Boy Scout Division is monopolizing the 2010 Jambo to itself. DUMB.

Let's go back to BSA Requirements #33215 and the BSA Eagle Application (Bin Item #58-728A-2006 Edition). What do they say? BSA Requirement 1: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Life Scout. BSA Eagle App Requirement 1: Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout. I don't see anything on the app about WHEN the six months of activity is completed. If early in his tenure as a Life Scout, a former SM of the troop signed off on the requirement, then it's done. My District Advancement Chairman has told me this story, more than once: There was a Life Scout who complained of prejuidice in advancement against him. The DE asked the COR if the District could investigate. The COR said yes. The DAC investigated, and determined there was a prejuidice in the unit against the Scout. The DAC withdrew the authority of the unit to advance the Scout. A SM conference was held for the boy by another unit. An EBOR was convened totally of District EBOR guests. The Scout earned his Eagle. Neither add to, nor subtract from. My thoughts. Others will have different thoughts. YIS

Hoot Hoot, fellow Owl... Roundtable is always a good place for a Beading. My WB was also out of Council, but not 120 miles downrange! SM, SPL, and TG made it. Eagle son was invited to take off my learners necker and help put on my taupe necker. Just remember, it's that NEXT ticket that's the spirit of WB YIS John

My brothers... We should be pointing this parent to his Chapter or Lodge Advisor, and to his unit OATR (especially for the son to ask the right question, per ScoutNut). We are supposed to keep what happens in the Ordeal away from Candidates, and we're getting awfully close to spilling beans here!!! ICS, John

In the Army, a FLAG is the basic red, white and blue we know so well. A COLOR is a Flag which has a gold fringe on all four borders. BTW, the bugle call is "To the Color." REVEILLE is the official beginning of the duty day. FIRST CALL is wake-up.

If a young person has a genuine and serious interest in any endeavor, a caring parent is going to commit time, energy and money to helping the child develop. Raising a child is not cheap. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Right now I am checking production on the annual HS band DVD. I also have to get the physical arrangements plan for roundtable done today. As far as equipment goes, I challenge anyone here to compare a full suite of backpacking gear to a higher end musical instrument... even used. I'm about to drop $4K on a tuba, because his skill has progressed to the point where the upgrade is worth the investment. One thing I've noticed, though: The HS band uniform (granted it's property of the school) has far better construction, material, fit and finish than the piece of excrement produced by Supply Corporation. We need BSA to drop back 40+ years and look at construction, fit and finish on the classic green uniform!

Fred, Normally I enjoy most of what you glean and post, but I believe some "truth in publishing" is needed for this piece: 1) bpnews.net is the Baptist Press News, a subsidiary of the Southern Baptist Convention. 2) This is an op-ed article, not hard news. 3) American Heritage Girls has an overtly Christian message in its Statement of Faith. This inherently will limit its penetration into schools. It also limits its penetration beyond the Christian church. Is the critique of GSUSA valid? IMO, yes. Is the alternative as presented viable? I'm not sure.

Lisa, Our Troop had an internal rule: We would not let a Scout earn all his MBs in house. With malice aforethought, we deliberately refused to accept MBC credentials for a couple of Eagle Required MBs. If the SM doesn't sign the blue card at the beginning of the process, the process doesn't go forward. As I look at my own sons' record, he did Family Life, Personal Fitness, and First Aid completely out of the Troop. Indian Lore, while done at Scout Camp, was essentially a 1:1 time with that particular Counselor at a special lodge. Space Exploration came as a consequence of attending a non-Scouting summer camp focused on space. Several of the adult staff were Scouters and certified within their Council. Sons' SM called and asked the right questions, then sent him West with a Blue Card. As my son approaches college, his ability to inter-relate with new adults is a skill I'm delighted he has. In my opinion, any Troop which keeps the merit badges in-house is absolutely short-changing their Scouts. BTW, your last comment, Lisa: Because that's the other thing I've seen - SMs tell the kid, sorry, there's no MBC for that, you'll have to pick another MB instead. Too bad, that MB could have been the start of something great for that boy. ... is absolute anathema to me. The words that come to my mind about that SM are neither friendly, courteous, nor kind.

We need to look at the culture in 1932. Many young men didn't go to college. The HS Diploma was "the essential paper" to a good working life. Many young men didn't complete High School. 8th Grade completion was seen as a waypoint for a laborer's life. Counseling young men about vocational options EARLY... and seriously ... was essential. Stosh is right, though: These days, introducing young people to vocations is part of the merit badge process, which in turn crosses the Advancement and Adult Association methods.

Our Council "OA Reservation" has 3 Boy Scout sessions. At each of these, we offer the Ordeal and the Brotherhood. Activities begin Wednesday night at campfire, with a tap-out. Activities continue through Friday morning with OA 101 for new members. Our youth do Brotherhood ceremony Thursday after supper, followed by Ordeal ceremony. Very intimate opportunities compared to the production lines of spring and fall inductions.

Gee. Size 32. Perhaps the most common waist size for a young man 16-20 years old. Supply Corporation strikes again. As emb021 says, there are plenty of excellent gray outdoor pants and shorts available outside of Scouting.

Have to agree with both OGE and Beavah here. I will say a couple of things, though: BTW, to Beavah... we have to remember that older youth (17-20) are the core of the leadership for Lodges. They aren't little boys anymore. Most have earned Eagle, many are young adult ASMs. Some have transitioned to Venturing as their primary youth program membership. To ASM915: There has not been a "National Lodge" of the Order of the Arrow since 1947 or so, when the Order was officially brought into the program of Boy Scouting. There is a National Committee of OA, which has young adult leadership (elected through the various Sections and Regions), and Advisors who have great experience with the Order both in their youth and in their adulthood.

Welcome to the Forums. As Crew 21 Advisor said, there can be some concurrent earning between Boy Scouts and Venturing. First Aid comes to mind. If your young man takes the more vigorous approach (the Standard First Aid course requirement of Venturing) to concurrently fulfill First Aid Merit Badge, he should be able to do once for both. I guess that's the first comment: Look at the requirements in both programs, and select the more rigorous of the two. Next: CAUTION: This may burn bridges with you, your son, and the Scoutmaster. Do your homework and figure out if you believe the SM is out of line with his dual credit prohibitions. If you believe he is, and can back it up, you can complain "of the record" at Troop Committee, OR to the Chartered Partner through the Chartered Organization Representative, or through the Unit Commissioner and/or the District Advancement Chairman. These may put heat on the SM to come back to program standards. OTOH, the SM may turn on your son and be non-supportive to him, or he may quit, and you find yourself in a bad position with other Committee folk and parents. Your son has the option of withdrawing from the Troop, and doing it all inside the Venturing Program. Since he's First Class, he can continue to Eagle inside Venturing, as well as work the Venturing recognition system. The downside to this is if he's not yet a member of the Order of the Arrow, he may never become one. OA youth election is reserved to Boy Scouting. I wish you well. YIS.

WOW!!! What an opportunity to put a long-term stamp of influence on your District. You have the opportunity to set a vision as well as establish processes and procedures that will enshrine your vision. You have a chance to impact all 3 Scouting programs and strengthen your adult volunteer pool! I would suggest two activities: - Just as Venturing folks are supposed to do an interest inventory of teens, may I suggest an interest inventory amongst Scouters. I'd tap into 3 separate pools: Chartered Partners (IH and COR), committed volunteers (Commissioners and District Committee folk) and Program Officers (CM, SM, Adv). Give them a chance to be open-ended. Use their feedback (it's a gift ) to validate or modify your vision. I'd also sit down with the other two of your Key 3. See how your proposed vision checks with theirs. Welcome to the forums, may we see you regularly in the coming months and years. YIS John A Good Old Owl Too...