John-in-KC

Real simple: Two deep leadership means at least FOUR DEEP LEADERSHIP. If one Scout must be taken out of pocket, there are still two to cover the balance of the activity. You resource sufficient adults to the size of the activity. It's called (drum roll please): The Buddy system. Do we really want an injured Scout being taken to hospital in a 1/1 situation, and having the LEADER get injured? Double trouble. YIS.

In my youth, Hillcourt's advancement requirements had more rigor, imo. I have to wonder if the current suite of requirements for the outdoor program (TF-Eagle) has enough rigor??? I'll spin off a thread from this. As to FCFY, we were a new troop, one year old. The SM had not recruited any older Scouts to assist him. It was boy run from the trenches. Frankly, 12 year old Scouts, no matter how much they think they know, don't have fundamental mastery of the topographic map, compasswork, and finding their way. They do First Aid teaching by rote, not with an understanding of WHY they do WHAT they do. I'm perfectly OK with a young man taking his own time to grow and develop. FCFY to me seems to be a member retention tool, not a skills training and retention tool. YIS.

De, I've seen professionals who see the young men behind the dollars, the units, and the adults. They keep remembering those young men, and wanting to make a difference. Certainly, sales on salary for a non-profit is not the fast path to riches. Many of us know and understand you're overworked and underpaid. As for me, I simply ask you to keep looking back to the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer as a touchstone to your vision. If you keep remembering why we're all in this, you'll be one of the great ones! YIS

First, for our mods, there's a parallel thread running in Open Discussion-Program: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=153697 I've reviewed both. While we don't know all the facts, and never will, there's enough here that I wonder about the adult and youth leader training of this Troop. In priority, my wonderings are: - Lack of the buddy system. Scouts' buddy (tentmate) should have made sure he was out of the rack! - What's good for the many is good for the one (an old Star Trek line)... Where were the PL, SPL, and SM when the tentmate couldn't/wouldn't/didn't roust the Scout? - The answer this Troop looks to have taken was One-on-One adult and youth contact. Why? Where's the basic discipline amongst the youth? This Scout got homesick. It sounds like he wasn't kept so busy he couldn't think about home. I'm not going to bash FCFY in this case, since we think the Scout now is a Tenderfoot. I remember being a Tenderfeet; I got lost on my first stalking exercise (anyone else remember when we had to stalk as part of 2d Class requirements)? Should Dad have been along? I do not have experience with medicated attention deficit children. I think this question depends on how knowledgable the leaders were to supporting special needs. My two cents.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I like what Beavah said. The NSP, asking they troop QM and TG what they need, starts reinforcing boy-led and starts breaking away from parent-led. I like the US Scouts list Scotteng pointed to. Always have a "Plan B." I like Gonzo's list; it has some things for activities besides operations in the kitchen. Cooking is a vital life skill, but BSA has demoted it in the program to marginally more than a nuisance, imnsho. If you want to give your son a leg up, teaching him to master some really simple things at home: ... Biscuits from bisquik and dry milk, browning hamburger, making spaghetti and meat sauce... those will set him up for success in the field kitchen.

Christy, WOW. Where to begin? I'm going to offer some options for yourself. All of Scouting depends on adult support in some degree or another. There are lots of good people in your district, your Council, and indeed nationwide ready to help, but it begins with you First, please, for the sake of the boys, step up to the plate, and become a Den Leader. I promise it'll be fun. Yes, it's a bit of work, but there are tons of activity books, support books, friends to call... lots of support. If there is already a Tiger DL, volunteer to take over or to form a Wolf Den (8 year old group, where your son will be next fall). Second, there is one ground rule of Cub Scouting: Keep It Simple, Make It Fun (KISMIF). Applying that one rule to all your planning will almost assure success! Third, there's training available. Some you can get online, others you have to attend: - Youth Protection. This is policy stuff. There's a lot of meat, but the very short version is: Never be one on one with a youth in a Scouting setting, excepting your own child. - Cub Scout Fast Start. This is an orientation into the Cub program. You'll be introduced to the Aims of Scouting, the Methods of the Cub program, and the relationship between the Chartered Partner, the Committee, and the front-line folks (DLs and CM). - New Leader Essentials. This is the common core of Scouting training. It's groundwork for all other Scouting position training. - Cub Scout Leader Specific Training (Den, Webelos, Pack, and Committee). The right one for you is Den Leader. - Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO). If you want to (and you should) take your Pack outdoors, at least one leader needs to have this. - Safe Swim Defense. Want to take you Cubs to a pool party? This is part of the deal. I've just scratched the tip of training. Every bit of it will help you work better with the young men in a den. There's lots more training to be had. Fourth, through your Cubmaster, ask the supporting area Troops for a DEN CHIEF. This is a Boy Scout who is willing to reach back and work with Cubs. He (and perhaps she; young lady Venturers can be Den Chiefs too), can be an invaluable assistant in helping your young charges burn off energy come meeting day. The old adage applies: If you take it one bite at a time... you can eat the elephant. Good hunting. Come back often and let us know how you're doing

One comment: If a Scout wants to be Eagle, there is a "metaphysically impossible cut-off date." Beyond that date, the Scout cannot make the time in rank needed to advance. Since the SM conference cut-off for Eagle is the day before the 18th birthday, a Scout must have his: - Life BOR no later than 17 1/2. - Star BOR no later than the day before the 17th birthday. - First Class BOR no later than 16yrs 8 months. The dates above assume a healthy young man with no special needs.

And none of us old farts weren't the same way when WE were in the program? I remember the OA chapter meeting I forgot my sash. Caught Hell from everyone. Paid a fine to the chapter fund... I was 15, that was 35 years ago... (is there a smiley for wince)?

The Venturing Crew got a Phimont slot for the 2005 season. Between the youth and the Advisor, they set some standards about what was "ready to go"... Defining standards in clear, commonsense terms, including the why, usually gets better buy-in than the SM or the CC declaring an edict, from my observation.

You and your husband both have right to be proud of them Room, board, and a modicum of independence for the summer. Life is good Mine did his interview for 2d season position last weekend. It's sorta neat when the camp director and the prospective employee hug, and then put their heads together about what will make the program even more fun for the paying guests this year. The staff calls their Camp Director "Mama T."

gwd: DH can be either "Dear Husband" or "Darling Hubby" Terms for the fairer side of the relationship I've seen and liked: My Good Girl LSW (longsuffering wife) John

Mr Blake.... Tom Peters has made a career of saying the below. Having seen it in grad school and in the workplace, I believe it: TRAIN AND RE-TRAIN CONSTANTLY. There is always something to be learned. "John, a credential means you were the most brilliant guy in the world on the day you defended your dissertation." That comes to me from my dear late uncle, a distinguished professor emeritus of anatomy in the UC system. Why do you think WB wants some many new members in each course staff? Retraining is part of staff development. It helps reinforce skills. Assimilating lessons learned from being hands-on is good too. Why do you think the volunteer program invests so much energy in delivering tools to the line user of Scouting? Train and re-train constantly. Revisit old ground, break new ground. If you're standing still, you are falling behind.

If we set a standard of Adonis for men and Diana for women to be our Scoutmasters, most are going to be sadly short. gwd, someone needs to be thanking you for stepping up to the plate and serving. THANK YOU. You are making a difference in the lives of young men. I see nothing wrong with an "ASM for fieldcraft." What I see are a ton of Scoutmaster minutes about making lemonade when life gives you lemons. I would recommend you do what you can in the field, but don't let your special needs inhibit where the Scouts choose to camp. Be there when they assemble, be there when they get home. Lots of troops use a "Camp SM" for the annual LT camp. He does the program work while the SM concentrates a bit more on serving with the Scouts. Is you DH in position to support being the "camp SM"?

I'm in a Council where we have the Tribe of Mic-o-Say. The Chief (SE) and the Chieftains of the Tribe have defined standards of attendance. These standards apply not only for youth program members, they also apply to transitional (18-21yo) Scouters. Don't meet the standard, ineligible to advance. There are waivers, they pretty much have to be for darn good reasons (the youth who spent 9 months in hospital and hospice fighting leukemia (and fighting it OFF) comes to mind).

Not true. Our Crew started 100% co-chartered; at next re-charter, the young people re-oriented primary registration to Venturing. At least... not true as my DE set up OUR crew. Whether technically correct to the hidden policy manuals in Irving, I neither know nor care.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Uzz, If you are implying that BSA and the NRA have broken their long-standing relationship, that would indeed be a sadness. If that is true, I'd like to know why. It seems to me our national liability insurance would be enhanced by using the best and most comprehensive national civilian marksmanship program, rather than trying to build an in-house program. If the relationship and the training is there, and this is a mandated supplement by the National Council because of a liability issue, then we don't get a vote, we suck it up. BTW, thank you for your service. I'm having a senior moment this morning; I cannot remember than name of my FATASOC instructor over at I-See-O hall. Do you know John Todd?

No whining on the firing line. My credentials include 20+ years of shooting, most of it in the Army's greatest combat arm, the Field Artillery. I've been the range officer, safety officer, pit officer, and battalion range safety officer for weapons from 5.56mm M16A1s through and including 155mm M109A2 SP howitzers and 203mm M110A2 SP howitzers on direct fire. I've coached ROTC cadets, experienced NCOs, and supervised battery commanders. Go back and take the training. I do not care if you just transferred from the US Army Marksmanship Training Unit at Fort Benning. There is always a detail which needs jogging, or a chance for you to share a war story which will keep some young 11 year old Tenderfoot alive. TAKE THE TRAINING.

Best thing is to talk to your Unit Commissioner. YP is offered live in multiple locations, at multiple times, throughout most Councils in the US. If not done using the online forum (which truth be told I recommend as annual follow-up, not start-up training), then as I understand the rules it needs to be done by a certified YP trainer. Then again, our District YP trainer has made a minor career out of YP training!

LEADER SELECTION IS A CHARTER AGREEMENT RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHARTERED PARTNER!!! I cannot state that in strong enough terms. Any candidate for SM must pass muster with the Chartered Partner. The COR, the IH, and the CC at the end of the day have the responsiiblity of hiring the Program Officer. Now, that said, I'm delighted the PLC wants input. It's amazing what you hear from babes, if you listen. If all candidates are established ASMs, I'll bet hard cash the young men have a good idea of who listens, who is a martinet, and who not only listens but mentors. I would suspect if there are any older teen Scouts (Lifes and Eagles, 16-17)around, they have an even better idea of how the candidates interact with the youth. I would seek out their input as well. Somebody (the Committee Chair by name) needs to tell the young men that selection of a SM is NEVER an election. In a perfect world, it's probably most akin to a "calling" process: After candidates identify themselves, the Committee, COR, and IH work to identify the best candidate. Having found the best candidate, the Chartered Partner invites the best one to enter Service. IMO, tell the young men: "We welcome your specific input; it will help our Chartered Partner identify the best candidate for the post." YIS

Coming back to the original premise... First, due diligence. I am a conservative Christian. My beliefs on faith, salvation, and evangelism are fairly well set at this point in my life. When I put on a Scouter or Venturing Scouter uniform, I agree to let the family, and later, the young man/woman decide how to act out their faith. Now, I don't fully agree with National, in that I believe a young man who can age-appropriately discuss an issue of polytheism should be allowed to go there. I KNOW FOR A FACT Scouting supports: - Judaism - Islam - Buddhism - Hinduism - Christianity - Ba'hai As above, if a Scout has formed a polytheistic approach to life (certain native American tribes), and he can talk to it intelligently for his age, I can live with it. As Lisa premised way back 100+ posts ago, should earning the emblem, or other active act of faith, be a direct program element? I SAY YES. As we listen and read the news, there is active intolerance in American society towards: - Islam - Judaism - Christianity in an array of forms. We need, imo, to equip our young charges to understand and act on issues of faith as they approach adulthood. Yes, that places a challenge on the table for the family that is non-theistic (any god just isn't part of the matrix of their lives) and for the family that is a-theistic (there is no god). So be it. FWIW, I do my part. Our Council Relationships Committee sponsors opportunities for young men and women to earn Protestant and Catholic religious awards. I've counseled in that program for several years now. As a certain professor of theology in Wittenberg once said "Here I stand." YIS

Lisa, I beat you to it Ed, Merlyn, the floor is yours. . .

Let's start with some activity inventories: 1) What do the young men like and want to do? Venturing supports more than just hiking and camping. http://www.scouting.org/venturing/about/venturing.html Specifically, note the Outdoors method is missing, but there is a "High Adventure" method. I know of a HS band based crew where a trip to a competition 1000 miles away was the HA! Additionally, look at the awards system of Venturing. While you don't have to use it, Recognition is a Method! The 5 Bronze awards show the major areas of Venturing: Sports Religious Life Arts and Hobbies Outdoor Sea Scout ... remember that Sea Scouting has unique elements from the rest of Venturing. Eamonn in particular here can give you great detail. Venturing can provide excellent program support for HS youth who have become interested in varsity athletics, the band, and the drama programs in their schools. 2) Are the young men contemplating a co-ed environment? Venturing permits that! Again, an inventory of what directions the young men want to take applies. Going co-ed includes the MANDATE to recruit sufficient women to be leaders as well. Overnight activities require 4 specific bed-down spaces: Youth/adult men, youth/adult women. 3) Are you expecting the young men to wear uniforms? Take a step back. Uniforming is NOT a method of Venturing. There is a Class A uniform developed by Supply Corporation, but it may not support what your Crew will need. Commonly agreed to dress clothes and uniform activity gear may work far better than a "de la Renta" cut shirt. 4) Young adults age 18-20 years 364 days can still be youth program members! So again I ask: Have you done an activity inventory of the older youth in your Troop, as well as HS youth in your area?

"We got SPIRIT, yes we do! We got SPIRIT, HOW ABOUT YOU?" That, to me, is the thrust of Mr Nevius's comment: Is the Scout rah-rah to the program? It's semantics, but important semantics. Scout Spirit is all about the Values Method and the Adult Assocaition Method of Scouting, imo. It's how these young men comport themselves when we don't have our eyes on them. It's about have we given them tools in the box to be the young men of America's Next Generation? Mr Nevius, who says: "so a scout who does not attend campouts, summer camp, eagle project and most troop meetings shows no less scout spirit then those that attend nearly everything activly?" ...to me, is discussing the Scouts activity in the PROGRAM of Scouting, which pertains to the Patrol and the Outdoor Methods. To my way of thinking, if there is more than ZERO young men in a Troop with the issue Mr Nevius describes, then: 1) There need to be two SM conferences per Scout: One with the Scout himself, where the questions need to be open-ended, and the leader needs to listen to the Feedback (remember, Feedback is a Gift!!). There is a reason the Scout is not engaging, but it's not going to come to the surface on its own. 2) There also needs to be a cup of coffee shared between the SM and the Scouts parents. We aren't the be-all and end-all answer for all boys; if the interests lie elsewhere, and critically so, then all parties need to say "This isn't a fit" and move on in peace. Now, if there are more than a few boys in the Troop for whom this is happening, then there needs to be some deeper checking. It's time for the COR to invite the UC in and see where the weak spot is in the adult leadership. A Scoutmaster can see a lot if he takes the occasional time to see an assembly or a school evening where his young men are doing something. Eyes and ears open will yield a tremendous amount of input and feedback on his program.

That answer at least is fairly simple: If a Scouter is not active enough to be well-known by the SM/CC/COR and have a current set of tasks... or if a Scouter is not well known enough to be "ASM without portfolio", THEN... shift their registrations to the Committee side. That way, the SM can simply tell them "Please sir, leave my program area."

I'd really like to have some input by a NCS trained camp Program Director about what he expects from Scoutcraft/Nature lodge youth and adult staff in running Wilderness Survival MB. I'd really like to understand the National Camp Standards for a program area such as Scoutcraft during a "burn ban" period. I'd really like to understand why some Scoutmasters, ASMs, Committee Members and senior youth did not inculcate the VALUES ideal of Scouting into the boys that built these fires.