John-in-KC

Gotta agree with Scoutldr. At least the Judge seems to get it. I guess I should have titled this "Money talks at the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office..."

So last night we are at Roundtable, and 4 folk get beaded. That's a good thing. Then 25-30 of us all go up and form patrols for Gilwell. We get through the refrain, it's time for the Beavers to lead off, and................ Stone. Quiet. Silence. Not a Beaver in the building. We interrrupted Gilwell for "Here we stand like..." in their honor. So much for the myth of the infallible WB Beaver!!!

http://www.actressarchives.com/news.php?id=6027 What more need be said? If you're rich, blonde, and pouty, you get out of jail free. 40 days house arrest in a Beverly Hills mansion is not doing time. If you're rich, blonde, and pouty, you get out of jail free. What a wonderful way for us to reinforce the Ideals/Values method of Scouting!

From my experience, Being IN the program is a beast of a different color and texture from being SUPPORT TO the program. I've seen and heard leaders say "I'm an Eagle, I don't need training." These are folks I generally stay away from. I've also seen and heard folks say "I'm an Eagle, how can I learn to serve these kids?" Those are the men who take training and WB, and put it to heart. It seems to me that the more you see of servant leaders in Scouting, the better off the unit and the area is going to be.

OGE, I can just hear the whining when that 1st appeal is upheld ... and you know it's coming, sooner rather than later. I'll be interested in hearing what the losing adults say afterwards...

Just a friendly reminder: OA provides not only camping promotion, but youth leadership beyond the Troop. The youth, under 21, ARE THE VOTING MEMBERS. All we old farts (21 years, no hours, no minutes, 1 second and up) are is Advisors. Period. To emb021, thanks: I had not realized that OA was no longer supervised by the National Camping Committee... as it is at Council and District levels.

What Eagle 309 said.

IIRC the technical rule is you can be an Assistant Scoutmaster until you are 21. Period. Even then, you are still under some degree of supervision by an over-21 Scouter. That's why I coined the term "transitional Scouter." You are neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat. I hope you have taken the various trainings (YP, MB Counselor, Fast Start, and New Leader Essentials), along with the position specific training you may need. There is a difference between being "in the program" and "supporting the program." I agree with ScoutNut. If you have superior outdoor skills talk to your District Training Chairman. He may tap you to assist at any number of outdoor leader training courses, from Baloo to OLS. Otherwise, one of the best options for a young adult in Scouting, especially in earning his bona fides, is to serve on camp staff. Good hunting!

Here it is, from the Language of Scouting: http://www.scouting.org/identity/los/los.jsp?typ=los&how=alfa&wat=W weapons "Gun" is an acceptable term for any firearm. Note the following definitions: caliber. A measurement of the diameter of the inside of a gun barrel except for most shotguns. Measurement is in either millimeters or decimal fractions of an inch. The word "caliber" is not used when giving the metric measurement. The forms: "a 9 mm pistol," "a .22-caliber rifle." gauge. This word describes the size of a shotgun. Gauge is expressed in terms of the number per pound of round lead balls with a diameter equal to the size of the barrel. The larger the number, the smaller the shotgun. Some common gauges are 10, 12, 16, 20, and 28. The .410 is actually a caliber, but is called a gauge. muzzleloader. One word, no hyphen. A firearm in which the propellant and projectile are inserted down the barrel instead of through a breech mechanism. The forms: "firing a muzzleloader," "a muzzleloading shotgun," "a muzzleloading pistol." pistol. Any handgun that does not hold its ammunition in a revolving cylinder. It may be "a single shot," "a semiautomatic," or "an automatic." Its measurement is in calibers or millimeters. The forms: "a .45-caliber pistol," "a 9 mm pistol." revolver. A handgun. Its cartridges are held in chambers in a cylinder that revolves. The form: "a .38-caliber revolver." rifle. A firearm designed or made to be fired from the shoulder and having a rifled bore. It uses bullets or cartridges for ammunition. Its size is measured in calibers. The form: "a .22-caliber rifle." shell. The word applies to military ammunition and to shotgun ammunition. shot. Small lead or steel pellets fired by shotguns. A shotgun shell usually contains 1 to 2 ounces of shot. Do not use "shot" interchangeably with "buckshot," which refers only to the largest shot sizes. shotgun. A small-arms gun with a smooth bore, sometimes double-barreled. Its ammunition is shot. Its size is measured in gauges. The form: "a 12-gauge shotgun." As for those of us who were once Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, and Airmen, I think we've all heard shouted this ditty to our Platoons while running the bay at Attention (hopefully we were not the hapless one): THIS IS MY WEAPON!!!! THIS IS MY GUN... ONE IS FOR FIGHTING!!!! One is for fun...

Summertime is an easy time for 10 year olds. Bicycling... Give them a five mile ride, and they'll be pooped. BB-guns... granted under Council auspices, but they will give anything to shoot a weapon. Swimming!!! Like Beavah said, a hike with a pack, leading them to strengthen for the day they do their 2d Class hike. Most important thing about all these: Keep them hydrated. I've seen at least one kid a year go to the First Aid area of our District Daycamp because they thought they only needed a cup of water in the morning. At my areas, the kids all did a variation of the Philmont Toast!

Lisa, I guess first I'd like to know what it would take to strengthen that one little troop, then start a-building... A friend of mine has shown me, more than once, a Commissioner's College thesis on the optimum size for a Troop, based on the Scouting literature. It's around 48 youth, providing for several patrols and a robust set of Troop PORs. Of course, as Beavah has said more than once, if I understood him correctly, a Troop is going to size itself to the comfort level of the adult leaders over time. Questions I'd want to ask: - Is the current "big troop" willing to surrender some of its Scouts, and some of its size? - For that matter, are there Scouts who are willing to transfer to be a nucleus for the start-up? - Is there a potential Chartered Partner who wants to use Scouting, and is willing to do its side of the Charter Agreement? - What can be done, collaboratively, between the Troops to encourage both Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. A friend of mine, who sits on our Council Executive Board, keeps reminding me "Cub Scouting is the seed corn, and we have to make sure we're giving it all we can!" - How do the area middle school principals and admired teachers feel about Scouting? - How do the area churches feel about Scouting? - Are there activities the town Troops can do together to help make Scouting more "Cool" to youth... attend the HS football game en masse, or have a hayride this fall? What about a "evening at the pool"? I know several Eagles, great campers all ... but they're HS kids, and they still like PS3 tournaments! In short, find the barriers ... and then find ways to eliminate or bypass them. This is a tale to keep telling us about

Mr Maynard, you said, in part... "but when you have someone going around the back way with help from another leader (His Buddy) I need to make sure that door is shut." What Beavah said. I had not heard of Council being told to make a scout inactive on charter before, but Beavah used to be a Council Commissioner. He knows many more ways of the trade than I. In the meantime, before or while you are arranging to refund the money, bring your COR, Unit Commissioner, and DE into the loop. If the Dad has a history of end runs, you want to make sure these key players are backing you up! (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I believe what Fotoscout says here is pretty darn accurate, especially in regard to mixing of programs. Although I'm not NCS trained and am not a Council visitor, I suspect seeing someone outside the age range would be a red flag to a BSA Camp Accreditation team. As to T158sm, I'd say "count your lucky stars." Someone in your Council's professional and seasonal staff was feeling very lenient in letting that Webelo camp. At the same time, as mentioned by Lisa'Bob, you've opened your unit to a long-term precedent: "Why can't I take Susie with me to camp? You let Jack take Robby two years ago???" The potential of internal bad blood... and the potential of unintended 2d/3d order consequences...

Sigh. Apparently we are not teaching WB Order anymore, or even my own fellow brainy owls have forgotten it... Beaver Bobwhite Eagle Fox Owl Bear Buffalo Antelope Staff (we let them play too). Sigh.

Ok, Mr Maynard... "The reason they are on the charter is that his buddy was the one doing the recharter and just put him on. Neither the Scout nor the leader paid for recharter his buddy just turned it in with out him paying for it. So without knowing about it the Troop ended up paying for it. " I will hope you were not the Committee Chairman at the time of at least one of these recharters. I've been a CC, and the recharter guy. Internet rechartering now appears to be a National standard. With it, I was able to give a draft copy to my SM/Adv (who does have a signature on the form, as well as the Executive Officer of the Chartered Partner (IH), who also has a signature. We went through the list carefully before finalizing. Recharter is a PROGRAM and a SUPPORT task, and the Committee has responsibility to ensure it's done right. With Internet rechartering, even if you have hit the send key, you can call your DE and tell him "we goofed." They are supposed to dump the old file, give you a new passcode, and allow you to restart the process. As both ScoutNut and scotteng have posted, what is done is done. National has clearly stated the UNIT is responsible for contact with the Scout. How you implement that hopefully is PLC primary, with some form of adult-adult backup. You're on the hook. Period. The only thing I can offer is if this young man has been a discipline issue before, you might consider registering and training one or both parents and expecting them to be part of your adults at the LT camp. If they cannot play, then he cannot come. It's a drastic measure, but it often works; the parents are wanting you as babysitters, and any form of "commitment" from them sends them away. Beyond that, at next recharter, talk with your COR, get his/her concurrence (they do own the unit) and tell this parent: "We will not recharter you or your son. When you've found a new unit, we will gladly transfer his and your records." If this Scout is not the only one who is "camp only", then you may need to sit down with your SM, your COR, and your UC, and re-evaluate program delivery. Let us know how this turns out.

Kudu, I don't do cable TV, nor cell phone. My budget allows a decent ISP, so that's what I have at home It's a very long story, and not worth recounting here.

I also agree with OGE and Beavah. If the Scout is invisible, why did your Troop recharter him, and do so more than once? As far as what the SM said, if the parent's folks make an issue of things with the DE or the DC, your unit may well end up on the short end of the stick.

I really do hope pmarius comes back, both to give us additional backstory as we've commented, and to receive our feedback.

Beavah, That's why we have to train unit serving Scouters to plan safely. A couple of years ago my Troop went to Packerd for a HA week. It's a bit over 800 miles. The SM didn't understand why the convoy couldn't drive it with one driver/vehicle in one driving day. He and his wife "do 1400 mile driving days all the time." Sad but true.

Oak Tree, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I have, however, retained lawyers in litigation. I've also spent close to 30 years in our Nations uniform, and sat a fair number of administrative law boards and conducted more than a few lost/damaged property investigations. In my circumstance, I see a situation where the plaintiff's attorneys will open a line of attack against BSA, the Council, the CP, and the Scouters: The attorneys will say a contributing cause was the units' failure to use even the slightest amount of care in a way that shows recklessness or willful disregard for the safety of others. The legal/insurance/accounting industry and military definition of gross negligence is: Negligence beyond the ordinary; a reckless or wanton disregard of the duty of care toward others. In the situation I described in my post, we are talking about not planning the trip. It'll be hard to defend against that. Who here doesn't do a map recon of the route for a trip to new territory? Who here doesn't check? I guess my key points are: - It's ours, the Scouters, jobs, to get the youth to their program, and to plan it right! - Most of the time, even if we get it wrong, nothing is going to happen. - When something does happen, though, we've opened our armor with not just chinks, but huge gaping holes. Moral of the story: Train Scouters to plan to support their youth.

OK, so I confused Ideals and Values. From Roget's Thesaurus online: 5 results for: ideals 1-5 of 5 results View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus - Cite This Source Main Entry: ideals Part of Speech: noun Definition: beliefs Synonyms: ethics, goals, morals, principles, standards, values Source: Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1) Copyright 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. Emphasis added

The Boy Scout RT Guide is now a bin item. Why it's a bin item, and the CS guide is a paid item, is beyond me. I've not looked for a venturing RT guide before. Fred Goodwin, a stalwart fellow and fellow member here, compared several years of Cub RT Guides. He states the guides, and the schedule of themes, rotate on a 3 year program. Here is the link he pointed me to: http://www.bacarrowhead.org/roundtable.htm The 04-05 guide is what you would use for 07-08. If btps can PM me with his email, I have the 07-08 Boy Scout RT guide on both my home and work desktops, and will gladly send it to him in digits. YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I agree with Beavah and Lisa on the process. I especially agree with Lisa that we don't know the backstory, including: - Is disruptive parent a Scouter? - Is disruptive parent trained? - Does disruptive parent have a health and safety background of any sort? - Why disruptive parent chooses "reply all" emails to spead the ill cheer? - Is program execution in this unit up to par? ScoutNut's points are also well taken. As Beavah said, if the poster is not the SM, CC, COR or UC, then the right person to approach is the Committee Chairman.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

It's one problem with the written word. Not all literary devices work easily. Thanks for the clarity.

Mark, Learning from our own mistakes is good. Learning form someone elses' mistakes is even better... much less pain. That's one of the reasons I post here. I get to learn, I get to share. Please, do let us know when the NTP comes back, and let us know how things went afterward. Have fun on this May the youth have fun and learn something too