John-in-KC

Agree with ScoutNut, but... There are advantages and disadvantages to retaking training now and again, or becoming a trainer, or taking the same training from another District: Disadvantage of course is TIME. Advantages include, but aren't limited to: - Different perspective on same subject. - New wrinkles in the program covered. - Reinforcement of primary points.

Lisa, I think your thread is well and truly hijacked...

Mr Palmer, I challenge you to compare QUALITY, FIT and FINISH of the 1922 uniform to todays uniform. I think you'll find, perhaps save the new zip pants, today's uniform comes up rather short, and there'd be a tremendous expense to duplicate Q,F, and F.

I really like OGE's question. I think I'll use that myself on an upcoming EBOR.

Above and beyond family names, as Tribesmen from HOAC know, there are opportunities for young men called to membership to select their own name. My son chose that approach, and it's amazing how aptly his name fits him. OTOH, our Tribal brothers and sisters in the Pony Express Council have a Chieftain name them in ceremony. I've said this before in other places and I say it here: I like the mentorship given by the HOAC branch of the Tribe, and I appreciate the faithfulness to the Plains Native imparted in the PE branch of the tribe. There is more than the occasional time at Osceola that I look at the "Kabuki Theater" and I shake my head.

From the Fact Sheet "What is Boy Scouting?" Bin #02-503F: Ideals. The ideals of Boy Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and as he reaches for them, he has some control over what and who he becomes. From the Scout Law as quoted on the Fact Sheet: REVERENT: A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. I think the major issue is where do we perceive attacks on the values Scouting holds dear in modern American society, and where we can counteract the attacks through using tools of the Scouting Program? For me, I like Lisa's idea, and I think we do need to look at how we approach the non-theist families which are out there, exposing our young men to faith, but being careful not to evangelize or prosletyze. The other challenge is how we can integrate this into the Grand Game. Kudu comments to the "religion of the woods", but the fact of the matter is, if you read Robert SS Baden-Powell's writings, he is expressly and overtly a Christian. He had the wisdom to understand that not all youth in the Empire would be Christian, so he gave substantial latitude. As I read his writings, though, I think he expected young subjects of the Crown to be inside Christendom in one form or another. In other words, "Religion of the Woods" is NOT, imo, a construct to get you almost to an agnostic sorta godhead; it's a tool in the toolbox to get the young man to the Almighty God he already believes in.

Kahits, I think you'll find you're generally allowed one adult member per year. I believe that is OA election policy nationwide. My brothers in service, can you confirm this? That said, there are exceptions, particularly if your unit cannot furnish 2-deep leadership for a Lodge function (and if your Council, as our does, requires specific 2-deep leadership for activities). If the Chapter Chief and Chapter Advisor make activities fun, then Arrowmen will come. I've seen that time and again. Activities need not be camping related; they can be pure fun or even Good Turn for America related.

Kahits, From my vantage point, one of the advantages of a Chapter, and a Lodge, is that those boys who find the troop too confining can find homes: To practice leadership, to demonstrate service, and sometimes, to make friends. The disadvantage, to me, of joining later (15-16) is that informal groups are starting to set up, and arriving boys may find themselves marginalized for a while. The boy joining earlier gets to get his hands dirty and feet wet. In the end, though, the Order is what the youth make of it. I, for one, am really happy all these years later I undertook the Ordeal and then the Brotherhood. ICS

HOPEFULLY, the transition of Cubs to Boy Scouts starts no later than the beginning of Bear year. Den Chiefs help set examples of mature behavior, getting the task accomplished, and having fun. Den Chiefs communicate support requirements back to whichever ASM does program liaison Troop to Pack, so that if more is needed, it may be obtained. CMs and SMs talk to each other to see where needs and fits happen. It's not a marketing campaign; it's an ongoing process. The Troop that provides the best and most cheerful support should garner the young men, if all works right.

Mollie, Call Bemidji...1-888-751-5166 http://www.bemidjiwoolenmills.com Mr Bill Batchelder will give you the help you need and take care of you!!! I promise! John A VERY satisfied customer

Jeffrey, I don't see you mentioning one should be certain ally, and one hopefully an ally: The should be certain ally is your Chartered Partner, in the persons of the Executive Officer and the COR. THEY can tell the SE that they endorse and support your efforts, and will the Professional Service in the person of the DE please do its part of living up to the Charter Agreement! The hopefully an ally is your Unit Commissioner, and the Commissioner's Service as a whole. If they are active and in place across the units of the District, they should be sensing any problems. Further, they should be offering help to get other Packs healthy. Of course, this all could be wishful thinking ... not all Districts have DCs like Eamonn and Beavah (or even former DCs in Eamonn's case). Not all units have involved and caring CORs.

I know a District nearby where a Troop provides JLT support to several area Troops. It was a ticket item for at least one Woodbadger. The principal adult of the project is a PhD level child pyschologist. He's known and respected in our area. He runs a great weekend program for unit JLT. Note, I keep saying unit JLT. He's studied the curriculum of the new stuff. Done the backgrounders. Rejected it out of hand. His honest evaluation is youth will extract more learning and have a more rewarding experience from unit JLT than they will from the new stuff.

I bought one of these for my son, because Bemidji has better FIT than Supply Corporation (He's an Extra Long, and we know that Supply Corporation doesn't do long). I was pleased to find out how much better then FINISH was over the stuff furnished by Woolrich and Supply Corporation. The red jacket of BSA is now 85-15 wool/nylon woolrich standard formula. The Bemidji jacket is 100%, and heavier!!, wool. I unconditionally recommend Bemidji!

Lisa, I've not seen you that riled up in a while There are times when I look at the IDEALS method of Scouting and wonder if we don't make it subservient to the Advancement or Personal Growth Methods. I like the ideas several have advanced here of earning the appropriate religious award to advance, particularly either to 1st Class or Star. There is a conundrum, though; we need to consider those families who are NON-theistic. Not atheistic, NON-theistic. God just isn't a part of the families life, and thus is not part of the Scouts' life. I counsel PRAY's God and Church award. Although I profess Christianity, I also accept Scoutings non-sectarian "Family Choice" touchstone for faith. Maybe what LH suggested, but with more time on the clock (age appropriate to older youth) is part of the answer. I could see making faith part of the advancement trail to Star, with the requirements he mentioned (all of them, not do two!) being part of the tenure clause. Thoughts of others?

Since my Bronze Eagle is a HS bandsman, I know about those fees too. The only truly obnoxious uniform item in terms of cost is the Venturing pants and shorts. Gee, do I want a silly tab on the right side that is the Venturing V? ... OR, am I willing to put up with plain Cabelas' shorts or trousers, with just as good a fabric, for less than half the price? Sorry, Supply Corporation, you lose. Venturing pants and shorts from Cabela's and REI for me, please.

Fourth of July parade and picnic, or maybe Pack picnic at the local fireworks celebrarion site. DISTRICT DAY CAMP!!!

In addition to Randy's generous offer, I would visit with your DE and see what he's been given in his files. EVEN MORE THAN THAT, I would find last years Director and PD and get anything they have. If you are at the same site as last year, much of what you need to do should already be documented. Really only annual certifications and new program elements should be the hard work.

Wow, Kahits... where to begin. First, maturity of your son for Candidacy is not your call as a Father. If I understand things correctly, it may be your call as his SM. If so, then you must evaluate him strictly in light of OA standards ... unless you want to lose him forever from Scouting. The Election Team will announce those standards to the Troop, so don't even think of hiding them. If they are doing their jobs correctly, they want to be sure all who think themselves eligible have an opportunity to visit with you as SM officially! Don't worry about the American Indian stuff. Period. End of sentence. The Order is not about Sharing Native American Ways. The Order is about Cheerful Service. The delivery vehicle uses dance, thespianism (to include costuming and stage menagement), labor, Native American Ways, and FUN. After a Scout is in the Order he can decide how, or even if, he will express himself in service to the Lodge. As far as the Ordeal goes, I was 13 years 6 months old when I took mine. My son was just over 14 when he took his, but we held him back a year a long time ago. Knowing my Lodge, its officers and Advisors, I see no problem with a 13 year old taking his Ordeal. As SM, you can talk to the Staff Advisor for the Lodge at your Council and get input. OA is not a secret organization; it uses mystery to enhance program delivery. As far as getting a Chapter to be doing things, finding fun and service is the way to get boys to come to Chapter functions. There's nothing wrong with a bowling evening for the Chapter. There's nothing wrong with a pool party (just conform to G2SS and Safe Swim Defense ). Does your community have a Christmas or Thanksgiving support network? Helping prepare T-day or Xmas baskets ... going caroling... For the older youth, packaging a group trip to do an OA Trail Crew trek at Philmont. (Want to see a DEEP discount on the Philmont cost? Arrowmen Trail Crew is the way! Yeah they labor, and labor hard for several days in service of Scouting, but then, they have the freedom of the Ranch. I've heard of some radical tours: Phillips to Baldy to the Tooth) ICS.

Brent, The Professional Service dedicates significant resources (time, talent, and treasure) to upon youth protection and abuse compliance unto the Several States. Additionally, substantial resources go into training the volunteers of Scouting. There are plenty of resources (time, talent, and treasure) placed upon training and ensuring compliance for the staffs and facilties of the camps and reservations of the BSA. This includes members of the Professional Staff, to include the Ranger Service, as well as the Seasonal staff. There are plenty of resources (time, talent, and treasure) placed upon training and maintaining the Advancement program for the 4 Scouting programs. This includes significant resources of the volunteer staff and participation from the Professional Staff. Now, what resources are placed against compliance to uniform policy? Voluntary participation of youth and adults (both professional and volunteer). Not "volunteers in Scouting": VOLUNTARY compliance by individual members. I stand upon my comment "A rule which does not have enforcement resources behind it is a paper tiger. It's CYA, IMNSHO."

Its Me, FWIW, the time for a Web DL to be looking at troops (sans the kids) and talking with Scoutmasters begins after bridging the year before, by way of discussions with SMs at District RT. Visits to summer camp, visits to troop meetings, without the pressure of the kids behind you help the DL discover what's out there. The more you sample, the better the validity of the assessment

Ahhh... Uniforming is NOT A METHOD OF VENTURING! http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=va Leadership. Group Activities. Adult Association. Recognition. The Ideals. High Adventure. Teaching Others Nothing about uniforms in there. I also see where Beavah is coming from. A rule which does not have enforcement resources behind it is a paper tiger. It's CYA, IMNSHO. Fact of the matter is that BSA relies on voluntary compliance from the professional service and us volunteers. As I've said, even Councils take liberty with the uniform. Read my posting history and you'll see what I mean.

Eamonn also has a Sea Scout Ship and that pesky watercraft of his are a bottomless pit for $$$. I will tell you my sons HS symphonic band is taking a 4 day trip to a music festival in the Rockies (yeah, go ahead and read into it, you're right). $500 a pop includes transport, condo, some food, fees etc. Gross price for 70-odd kids is $35K. Been a lot of fundraising this year.

As can be seen here, dropping a Scouter is a two-edged sword. It's worth the time and energy of the CC to check in with them, annually. There should also be a point (my opinion) where a Scouter no longer draws on the resources of the Troop. We shouldn't be putting the economic burden of the unit on the backs of the current Scouts and parents. To me, fair and equitable says "if you're an economic Scouter of Troop NNN, we ask you fund your registration and $20 for support of the current program." Again, my thoughts only.

I've worn nylon and polypro shirts. I've worn woolen trou and shirts as well. Give me natural fibers, please. Environmentally friendly. Lots less shocking. I'm not even sure all polypro is recycled anymore!

Counterpoint: What are we trying to do in Boy Scouts? PREPARE THEM FOR ADULTHOOD. We're supposed to be teaching, through the Methods, that there is a time for play and a time for work. BTW, if CPR is being taught as a skill to be "oriented upon" as in TF-1C 1st aid, I've no problems seeing it taught by boys. If it's being taught for certification, I want the boy (probably 16 or 17 years) to have a CPR trainer card, else I want a true CPR trainer without regard to age doing it. I don't condone the "sit around and listen" troop meeting. Pre-opening and activity segments should keep them busy, and send them home tired. Skill development and business portions of the meeting, Scouts need to learn the sadly essential skill of adulthood: Shut up, be still, and listen. In fact, see Beavah's post up there? It really is kinda sorta ground truth. See how the Troop operates in camp. That's the better place (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)