John-in-KC

Packsaddle, Lisa asked a question in this thread: "Which personal values, and what are "religious concepts" anyway?" My post, and its thesis sentence, was a direct response to the question: "To me, which "norms and mores" is a family decision to make. The parents of a family join a community of believers... be it a synagogue, church, temple or ???. When they join that body, there are expectations." I am a Christian, so I used its history and developed belief system to demonstrate the "norms and mores" as well as expectations: "Much of Christendom distills its beliefs from the whole of the Bible to the Ten Commandments, the Apostle's/Nicene Creed, and the Lord's Prayer." Now I did goof: I meant to use "churches," not "units:" "Even there, some protestant units substitute NT scripture verses for the creeds." In other words, as a Scout leaders I cannot define faith for a family. That is done in direct context of their own faith and worship lives. To sum up: My argument is the family affiliation in faith defines the specific belief set I would hope a Scout is learning and practicing as he grows through youth, adolesences, and young adulthood. Did I get to your question? Does my explanation give you the information you needed? Feedback is a gift YIS

gwd, I hear a lot of hype about 60-80 boy "really big" troops. Guess what: They may well be shortchanging the boys. Someone did a study for their Commissioner College doctoral thesis, and iirc the optimum size is a bit under 50: 4-5 patrols of 8, plus: SPL ASPL QM Scribe Bugler TG OATR That means 32 + 7 or 39 boys, or 40 + 7 or 47 boys is about right! The blunt question to be asked is: How much independent responsibility do you want your son to have right now? That is the important thing our Troop emphasizes: Independent responsibility. Not all parents want to give their children independent responsibility. They will want the Webelos III type troops. Oh, well.

I think Mr Fred Goodwin (my classmate a few years back) would agree: If you want direct access to the National Religious Relationships folks, a great way to do it is attend the "Scouting in the Churchs' Ministry" Conference at Philmont Training Center. I took this particular conference in 2003. I commend it to all who are interested in matters related to how youth work through developing their personal faiths. YIS

Hunt, We do not know this man, nor do we know his son. We should not push Dad to "fall on his sword" with his son. Only Dad knows the full circumstances. We don't.

Lisa, To me, which "norms and mores" is a family decision to make. The parents of a family join a community of believers... be it a synagogue, church, temple or ???. When they join that body, there are expectations. Much of Christendom distills its beliefs from the whole of the Bible to the Ten Commandments, the Apostle's/Nicene Creed, and the Lord's Prayer. Even there, some protestant units substitute NT scripture verses for the creeds. If you believe, as I do, that faith in a God above is the bedrock of human society, then the essentiality of that faith in your life is part of what holds the fabric together. As you reduce the importance of faith, its role in the fabric of life changes. That's why I enjoyed the thread about a mandate in the Boy Scout program to earn the age-appropriate religious award. My looking around my friends and community lead me to think faith is not the bedrock for too many. So, Trev, yes, your response to me: "I interpret your final logic statement to mean that Scouts need a sense of awe and reverence for the numinous. I agree." ... is spot on, for me. YIS

My opinion: The day after we drop the DRP is the day The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (as a corporate church body) drops Scouting as its male youth program. LDS church will direct its units to de-charter so fast it will make National's head swim. If: - you cannot ascribe any of the glory and majesty of this earth, the skies and creation to any god (small g), - you cannot ascribe any of the mystery of this life to any god (small g), - you as an adult hold a family value that no god or gods (again small g) exist. Then: The Boy Scouts of America is not for you or your child. It really is that simple.

So son is planning his menu for his First Class requirment of cooking. He likes one of my recipes, Briar Patch bake (browned beef, onions, and bbq sauce layered with Mac and Cheese. He tries it at home... not bad! He also tries doing it as a variant of chili mac, mixing the whole kit and kaboodle together. Still not bad. It's going to be a relatively small camp, Scout camp is 10 days away. PLC decides to do it as one patrol. Son takes his menu to SPL for approval... and shows costs. SPL changes the briar patch mac to Mac and Cheese from the box. Son prepares it... and gets ripped by an ASM for not going farther. SM takes ASM and I aside, and explains to said ASM: SPL changed it. ASM storms off and leaves the camp. BTW, the SPL didn't go on the camp. Next day was a good time to teach son: Get mad, get over it!

Sue, First, keep going Beaver Staffer Girl!!! We're listening, and we have your back. When does son end term of POR? I've seen parent/boy SM/SPL combos before, it's hard for both to step out of the role. Have you considered designating mentorship of him as SPL to your lead ASM?If he chooses to step aside, there are good lessons to be taught to the Troop in doing so (witness what we are discussing vis a vis your CC). On the Scout you mentioned: Any issue which risks denying, or even delaying an Eagle is something worth talking about with the volunteers who support you: UC, Dictrict Advancement, and COR. My DAC has told me stories over the campfire of when he has removed away advancement authority for a Scout from a Troop, had someone else do the SM conference, someone else do the EBOR, and voila, a new Eagle. The more you can do to clearly show the situation and its challenges, the better things will be should anyone go beyond you and make an issue. It's one of those WB basics yet again: Use all your resources. We don't know the volunteers in your District or Council. We know you report your perceptions pretty clearly. We've seen your joys and your struggles. Keep the faith and draw on the tools we got at Gilwell Field. John

I agree with Beavah's post. I add a specific element to the advancement program: Strengthen cooking to the level it was in the 1965 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, including Cooking MB being on the Eagle list.

us3packrats, Welcome to the campfire CONGRATULATIONS TO YOUR SON!!!! I've seen Eagle COHs run from elaborate, in-church kinds of things to a cookout where someone special to the Scout rings the bell, publicly acknowledges what the young man has done, and all get back to friends and fellowship. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Sue, What Beavah said. I would also consult, before the sun sets, with: - the District Advancement Chairman - the Unit Commissioner - the COR - the Committee Chair. If the intent is to deny this Scout Eagle for cause, then your ducks have to be in a row. The reasonable SM and CC would expect: - An appeal at least to the Council Advancement Committee, if not National. - A complaint "of the record" to the Chartered Partner.

First, an amendment to my post, since the time for me to change it has expired: It should read: Scout should visit with his teacher, and just as important, principal, if opening a vent hole to fit in the recovered closetry, and placing it where it should have been, will optimize the storage. As to twocubdad's comments, this is why we can be friends and give our input here, but only the District Advancement Chair, on the ground, can give final comment on what will or will not pass muster. I strongly recommend you (I re-read who you are ) contact the DAC and bring this up offline. The issue of the school backpedaling on an approved project concept should be part of the question. Please, let us know how this turns out.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Prairie, I've read the 4th edition. It isn't nearly as good as the first, in terms of telling the story!

When I was troop advancement coordinator, I printed one copy of the Advancement Report for Council, and kept a file copy in digits. Periodically (~3 times a year), I updated the SM with a copy of the Scouts' individual advancement and activity histories. If the Scout has turned in his card, the information is available. Until he turns in his card, the matter is between him, the SM, and the Counselor.

OK, so the plan has to change a bit. Life happens. Scout should teacher, and just as important, principal, if opening a vent hole to fit in the recovered closetry, and placing it where it should have been, will optimize the storage. For this meeting, Scout should - make a business appointment after school, - be in full and correct uniform. - get some photos of what was, what is, and what he thinks he can do - Approach teacher and principal not just as a student, but as someone in the community supervising the donation of time, labor and materials. - Pitch his concept, and get feedback. If the feedback is "We're happy," get a signoff on school district letterhead!!! Lessons I'd hope Scout extracts: - Change happens - Leadership sometimes means stepping beyond your years to run a meeting. - Leadership sometimes means supporting the intent, not the letter, of a project.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

E, To be honest, I've quit visiting other Scouting boards. Why? I don't have time to sift through incivility. I've found reliable info, horse sense, and civility here. That matters. PM me when you get a moment. It'd be nice to update my prayer list a tad

Lisa, Email sent to a friend, who is one of our District Cub specialists. You're cc'd on it. John

I think we're all guilty at times. WE includes ME!!! - We post without re-reading our messages, to make sure we say what we want to say. - We consign some folks to the dustbin, for any number of reasons. - We don't use this forum (issues and poltics) to blow off steam. - We let the other guy rile us, and an ad hominem attack comes out of our mouth. There's a rule set I use at a different forum, where I'm a mod: - Remember and apply the Golden Rule. - Debate the position, don't attack the poster. - If you don't want to see your post on the editorial page of the New York Times, then don't hit the "send" button. The BFO rules for the forums (except Issues and Politics) should be: - Think a moment about the Scout Law before hitting "submit your message." - Remember why you're on this board. My thoughts. YIS.

Two comments: First, LH asked how we were taught. What I stated is how my District YP trainer taught me. She's had the job for years, stays current, and continues to preach the party line. Second, I tend to agree with Beavah... but I'm going to use what's left of "mentally awake" mind to make good calls. Truth be told, there are a lot of times I use the stall so I have a moment of privacy from youth. That way well, anything else is TMI Frankly, we need to resource activities with enough adults to get the job done. Now that said, that's also a running problem. I don't care if the organization is Scouting, HS band, or pop warner FB, getting enough adult support is always a challenge.

Mr Blake, You missed my point: HOW MANY hikes to qualify for 2d Class, then and now? HOW MANY NIGHTS in the field? HOW MUCH COOKING? HOW COMPREHENSIVE a knowledge of first aid? "Neither add nor subtract" to the advancement plan. Yes, we can add skills to the skillset, but is the ADVANCEMENT PLAN ITSELF rigorous enough?

In these days where youth are blasted by the numbers, it's really nice to see newspapers and school websites celebrate such victories as earning Eagle

I've been there, and done this. First, I agree with Gonzo to a certain extent. Help the Troop Scribe have duties to go with his POR; use the advancement wall chart. Keeps the unit advancement committeeman/woman from having to confiscate books on a monthly/quarterly basis. Second, I also agree with Lisa and Ed. Troopmaster has a broad array of data collection functions. Particularly useful is the driver info data which my council requires when we submit a tour permit app. Pick the drivers going, BAM! I have a printout which my council accepts! Troopmaster is a GODSEND after LT camps and hikes. Tell it there is a COH coming up, and it dumps every badge the Scouts have earned... and a few more. How many of us actually track the World Conservation Award? Troopmaster feeds it into the equation the instant the Scout picks up the badge. Finally, I don't know about the data entry clerks in YOUR council... but in my council, accuracy sometimes leaves something to be desired. On at least two Eagle apps, I've had to resubmit every bloody advancement and MB the Scout earned... because the ScoutNet record was AFU (and that is the most civil way to describe it!)! (For the acromynically impaired, AFU means All Fouled Up, I am sure, OldGreyEagle) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Here are two much older books, but still each has a wealth of information: Whelen, Colonel Townsend and Angier, Bradford. On your Own in the Wilderness. Publication City unknown: Galahad Books, 1958. Colonel Whelen was an Army Ordnance officer of many years experience. He and Brad Angier have hunted all over the world, and give thought to all manner of light and heavy camping, from the lightest of rucks to full up expedition outfitters in the backcountry. Fletcher, Colin. The Compleat Walker. New York: Alfred A Knopf, 1968. The equipment is utterly obsolete, but the concepts Fletcher presents are timeless. Shave ounces off the weight on your back. Plan your menu with high carbs/proteins and even some fats. Where most of us want to be in some form of group (or are working with Scouts who should live in patrols), Fletcher advocates the opportunity of doing it alone. He also demonstrates the needed checks for doing an expedition alone.

Scoutldr, I tend to agree on swimming. My son did both swimming and cycling on his trail. Now he marches with a sousaphone, so habits of fitness did work to take hold. I absolutely agree on Cooking. I'd be willing to go to 22 MBs to get it back on the Eagle required list. To me it's a basic essential skill of the male. It's all the more so in this era of broken marriages.

I'm going to ask here for opinions from fellow late 40-somethings and 50-somethings. We were the ones who used the 1959 and 1965 (6th and 7th) editions of the Boy Scout Handbook. Now, I understand there is need for change: - The Internet has replaced signal flags. WHAT ABOUT SURVIVAL MIRRORS? - Suntans are no longer encouraged. - Browse beds are discouraged. - First aid techniques have improved. Even so, if we look at the requirements: - Camping - Hiking - Cooking Does the program, in your evaluation, have sufficient rigor, or has it been watered down? We've had this discussion with several of the requirements for Merit Badges, what about the basic program? It'll be interesting to see what our considered thoughts are I put this in Issues/Politics so we can go to town and give ourselves some room for "heartier" debate.