John-in-KC

Here's my take: This is a lose/lose/lose situation. The SCHOOL and the COMMUNITY lose the most. They, however the charter is/was/will be, lost young adults and their leaders. Those folk helped when their peers were illegally drunk/stoned, and unsafe to drive themselves. The school lost access to secondary insurance while these young folk were doing their missions of mercy. The young people in the Crew lose an opportunity to serve their peers while having their actions backed up with additional insurance. The young people who were illegally drinking and doing drugs lose a safety net. Anyone care to bet there will be a funeral as the consequence of all this, because access to a stone sober driver isn't available any longer? The local Council lost a unit. Of all the above, that is the least important of all. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The objecting parents, imo, should have been told "If you can underwrite the insurance at the same level BSA is, we'll be glad to make you the new sponsors of this program. If not, well, I guess you have a problem." As the principal, I think I'd have next called a local church and ask if they were willing to pick up the charter. Merlyn, do you even care about the service rendered by these young people that is now gone?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OK, let's play parse the stuff... 1. A boy must be present 80% of the time or he will be considered in active unless he has good reason. It doesn't say if 80% is a month or 2 months a year or what! Go show your Committee this one: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=158762&p=1#id_158779 http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html'>http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html 2. A boy may not wear a bolo tie unless he is at least a star rank...is that a by-law???? I thought anything the BSA put out whenever is considered appropriate uniforming...nothing retires ever. See the Uniform and Insignia Guide, BSA Supply No. 33066. SFAIK, neckwear in a Troop is supposed to be "all or nothing:" Either Scouts and Scouters all wear neckwear, or none do. 3. The scoutmaster is appointed by the COR AND approved by the committee chairman!?????? I thought this was the other way. Yep, this is 180 out. See this: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf 4. Merit badge counselor cannot be a family member if others are available, unless it is being taught in a group setting. If a family meber must be a merit badge counselor all work must be verified by a second adult working as a co-counselor????? Here's some info on MB Counselors http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/ Believe it or not, I have less of a problem with this. I helped our Troop do Citizenship in the Nation a few years back. I sent my son to another Counselor. Although there is literature from National saying I didn't have to, A Scouter is Trustworthy: I wanted to set an example of avoiding a conflict of interest (there are parents who WILL lower the bar). Anybody have any words of wisdom for me????? Is there a way, without typing all 9 pages out, to link to the by-laws or can I copy and paste it to here for anybody wanting to see the whole darn thing??? Ang HTH EDIT: You may have to fiddle with a couple of the hyperlinks. Sorry (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Beavah said, in an advancement related thread: "Compliance with program materials is really not part of the BSA business model, and no resources are allocated to it." In the context of the thread, the only compliance fora I know about are the appeal procedures to Eagle Scout (and I assume the Venturing Silver award, since both of those are national in scope). While I can see a District appeal of a Star or Life rank, I can't see it wandering all the way to National. In the broader context, are there not some program compliance requirements National levies on the Councils: - The first one coming to my mind is the Camp Inspection program, where the Regional Offices send out teams to ensure our Reservations comply with National Camp Standards. - The second is a membership audit, when the integrity of the movement comes into question. Two summers ago, there seemed to be some questions about the membership numbers in the Atlanta Area Council. Mr Williams had just promoted Jim Terry from SE for the Heart of America Council to the home office in Irving. Mr Terry was sent from National to Atlanta a 90 day "get things turned around" assignment and get the youth and adult enrollment straight. He's long since returned to Irving and is the Assistant Chief Are there other forms of compliance which Forum members know about? YIS, John

Boris, Beavah beat me to much of what I was going to say. Now, one of your comments was: BSA National would be well-served to create an Ombudsman and policy answer desk designed to unite the volunteers. As Beavah stated, I think some training (New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, Troop Committee Challenge) might be in order. There are both professionals and volunteers, in your local area, whose job is to provide answers to questions: They are your District Executive (a member of the BSA professional service) and your Commissioner's Service (all volunteers). The Commissioner's Service is charged with providing expertise, support, and answers to unit serving Scouters, as an extension of the work of the Professional Service. Of course, training helps unit serving Scouters understand the resources available to them. May I commend to you training for your position in Scouting? Now, as to your comments about whether or not youth may ask for members on their Eagle Boards, well, it seems to me you're hiding part of the issue from us. From my experience, an EBOR is a coming of age and a defining moment for many of the young men honored to receive it. The majority of these young men have worked very hard to get to the threshold of Eagle. IMNSHO, they deserve our support in making their Eagle Board of Review a lifelong special night. Our job as Scouters is to support the youth. Many of the Scouters here and in the field have a simple mantra: "Whatever it takes." YIS

Email sent.

Mr Maynard, The operative sentence is "The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis." Source: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html The obligation is to the adults, hopefully through the youth leadership, to present the opportunities. Yes, the boy has to work them, but let's be frank. 6 hours of community service isn't a lot. Most youth Scouting engages, through their schools and churches these days, are getting way beyond 6 hours of service per school year. (Granted, the SM has the decisionmaking authority on what is/isn't acceptable as service). The fulfillment of the POR is where the youth is directly accountable. Now, if your Troop QM isn't attending meetings, but the Troop trailer is always ready to go, and he's getting the job done, is he active? Yes, imo. If the Scout is not around, drop him at the next recharter. Until then, your Troop is on the hook. As Beavah said in an earlier post: "Then you thank the two of 'em for their participation several years ago, and refund their money for summer camp."

The BSA bin number for this is: 58-709. My council has both MS-word and Pdf files of it.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/34281.pdf ... female http://www.scouting.org/forms/34284.pdf ... male These are the inspection sheets, straight off the National Council website. WOMEN are authorized Den Numbers on their uniform, by picture and narrative. Anyone care to bet this is a holdover from "Den Mother" days (who else here had their Mom as their Den Mother ... and Mom had the complete Den Mother's uniform!!! ) MEN do not show Den Numbers on their uniform, but the narrative is "Den numeral, if applicable, is worn 2 inches below seam."

My brothers (and sisters) in Cheerful Service, Let us be careful not to disclose that which Candidates should learn through mystery and discovery!!! ICS, John

YIPPPEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy Dance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! National finally did it. BSA Requirments is now online as part of the Scouting.org website: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/32215/index.html I'm gonna call Jim Terry and Chris Wolfe at the National Office and thank them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am dead set against adult patrol patches. Patrol patches are articles of the youth uniform. Paraphrasing, I believe the Uniform Guide says "Adults shall not wear youth specific articles of uniform." My reasons for this are personal in nature. In my WB course, we affixed our Patrol patches to the reverse of our leather name tags.

Hunt, Gotta agree the CP is not beneath question or criticism, and needs to be willing to deal with it. That said, we also do not have a dog in this fight, so to me it pushes the envelope towards wasting my breath. There are bigger issues to worry about.

gwd... Old fashioned Scout handshake for Scouts and Scouters in uniform, conventional RH handshake for parents doing the driving gig: Shake your hand "Hi, glad to see you, welcome to Scout Camp. We hope you (your child/your troops Scouts) have a GRRREAT week." OGE: I don't see anyone from the National or Regional offices revoking Council charters... remember, Camp Inspections are coming in a few days. Regional folk will see these staff uniforms, and frankly, I think it'll be below the "so what/who cares" line.

Fred, To me it's simple. If we say the Chartered Partner indeed owns the unit, then we have to accept they will issue "guidance" from time to time. The priest in question appears to be applying the standards of his denomination to the folks he allows in contact with his Scouts. I see nothing wrong with that. Can anyone show me where what's being done is illegal, immoral, or fattening? Besides, we're talking the State of Maryland here. Geographically, it fits inside of any number of Congressional DISTRICTS out here in Flyover Country. The last time I checked, neither the 2d Class Citizenship requirement nor the Citizenship in the Nation requirements demanded you see only ONE particular legislator (yes CIN requires you to express YOUR views to one of your Senators OR your Congresscritter). OGE: I first saw NUNSENSE in the West End in 1987, as my then bride and I were DEROSing home from US Army, Europe. We stopped in London for a week of goodbye to our favorite European city. Honor Blackmun was "Mother Superior." Now, I am a believing Christian of a conservative persuasion, and I'd unconditionally recommend anyone see NUNSENSE!!!

Resqman, I'm not so sure all of it has to go on the pile. I wasn't an Eagle. Even so, the Scout Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan, not to mention the Admonition and Obligation of the Order (for that matter, the Brotherhood Oath)... they all are part of who I became and how I've carried myself since. Beavah, Yes, I can be pedantic. That's why I pride myself now on being a "Uniform Licensee." BSA isn't Mother Army That said, learning what is discretionary and what is mandated is not the easiest thing inside the Boy Scouts of America!! You've shared, time and again, the quality of some of BSAs authors, and the inability to consistently parse words and phrases.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

gwd, Very, very cool. It's a good cutting of an apron string

gwd, Call your DE or DC; ask for contact infor for either the District or the Council special needs coordinator. There are procedures ... just as there are procedures in Boy Scouting. All you have to do is follow them. Perhaps someone here also has those procedures near to hand.

Dropped the Eagle off at Scout Camp today. He needs to earn BSA Lifeguard before he reports to his own Scout Camp as a staffer! Gotta love the staff uniform: Hiking boots or field shoes Scout Socks Green Scout Shorts Custom leather belt with custom camp staff big brass buckle Venturing Shirt ... staff patch on a plastic hanger to the left pocket. Council patch and Council honor society patches Silver epaulets with embroidered STAFF on them. Neckerchief and 1/8" kernmantle rope woggle. The Council President, SE, and Council Commissioner all approve of the uniform; they were doing "glad handing" to kids, Scouters and parents alike in the parking lot ... in the staff uniform!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I just went and revisited the Eagle app, Beavah. Yes, if the SE doesn't sign it after all is said and done, that could hold up the works!! I appreciate the feedback on this.

Lucy, Woohoo!!!! Sometimes we don't get to hear the good news come back! THANK YOU!!! Getting a good camping program going will be a great thing, for both the youth and you. I'm very glad that the PLC will be setting the program. With gas a $3 a gallon, it's also an opportunity for you to teach them some conservation and stewardship If you get a chance, go to your State Parks and Rec website, as well as your State Historical Society website. The PLC can have tremendous opportunities to leverage in merit badge requirements even while it is setting basic advancement opportunities be being out and camping.

Like Scoutldr, I sit several EBORs each year. We tell the young men: "As of this moment, you are an Eagle Scout. The paperwork has to go to Texas and come back, and then we will give you your Eagle patch. When you are ready, we will work with you to support your Eagle Court of Honor." Units in our District tend to publish results of Eagle Boards on the district list-serv that very night! Has anyone seen Irving reject an approved Eagle app recently? From all I've seen, National is a clearinghouse to make sure the Eagle roster is straight. The major work is done by the local Council and the EBOR.

In my District, the NESA representative to the District Committee maintains the roster of Eagle Board of Review guest members. The CC calls in and gets one, and makes arrangements as needed for date, time and place. The District Advancment Chairman trains these folk and together with the NESA rep watches over what they do and how they do it. Many of our dsitrict units give substantial input to the Eagle Candidate for the EBOR: If there's a special Scouting place for the young man, they'll move Heaven and Earth to get him there. If there are special Scouting people in his life, they tend to be invited to sit the EBOR. Other Districts in my Council have standing EBORS at District Roundtable: The only unit member allowed to sit the EBOR is the CC. I'm very glad I live where I do.

Here is the 1999 definition used by the United States Army: Leadership is influencing peopleby providing purpose, direction, and motivationwhile operating to accomplish the mission and improving the organization. The 1999 doctrinal basis of leadership was a framework of 3 categories: BE ... posess values and attributes which inspire others to follow: The Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity and Personal Courage. The Army Attributes: Mental, Physical Emotional. KNOW... the skills of leadership: Interpersonal, Conceptual, Technical, and (unique to military) Tactical. DO... Influence, Operate, Improve https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/9502-1/fm/22-100/toc.htm Scouting provides tremendous opportunity and resources to develop leadership knowledge. Unit JLT, Brownsea, National JLT Trainer at Philmont ... all these provide opportunity for young men. Yes, I use the old terms, because they are known largely throughout Scouting. I cite the military definition because it is an additional resource ... and what did many of us learn in Wood Badge? Yep, "Use all Your Resources." Does an introduction to leadership belong in the Handbook? Probably. Didn't Green Bar Bill write one in Handbook for Boys and the 60s editions?

That's nothing. The Great State of Missouri has FOUR Scouting License Plates: - Eagle Scout - Order of the Arrow - Tribe of Mic-o-Say ... Geiger Scout Reservation (Pony Express Council) - Tribe of Mic-o-Say ... H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation (Heart of America Council) Online forms here: http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/motorv/plates/ What does YOUR state have ??? (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Local, I don't think I'd put THAT challenge in Open Discusssion-Program. I will bet cold, hard cash there is a Scouter who: - Is a chef at some higher end restaurant; - Became interested in cooking from the Cooking MB; - Is an Eagle Scout - Is willing to take you up on cooking those using camp cookery methods, and turn them out perfectly.