fred8033

Agreed. At some point, it's a matter of perspective too. For example, arguments can be made from statistical broad patterns and others are using a selection of legal cases. If you look from legal case wise, BSA is guilty. It's how the system works now. Many view that system as corrupt and as a self-serving legal system. i.e. the $185m in proceedings against a bankrupt company that had $400m in assets. If you approach the arguments from statistics, the IVF files might have a different conclusion. Then consider that BSA had 100+ million youth and 10s of millions of adults. You will find ugly legal cases in any organization of that size. ... If you look at statistical broad patterns to define, then there may be a different conclusion. ... i.e. did BSA have a higher incident rate than others. I've been reading the IVF files and amazed at the numbers that I'm seeing that do have press clippings and/or police involvement. I was actually trying to do see what the percentages were. Take ten random cases from every five years. Were police involved? Was there press? Did parents know? I wish I could have finished last night.

Shame on you. Eventually every discussion ends with bringing Hitler in. I'd argue against devaluing other people by associating them with trump or evil or racism or genocide. It's just not scout like. The opposition would point out the badgering, bullying and attempts to overwhelm and devalue the opinion of others. We should avoid this association so we don't become yet another set of hypocrites sitting on a Jan 6th house committee on unamerican activities.

Thanks Johnsch322. ... Last night just to remember ... because this has been going on for painfully long time ... I re-read 20(???) of the files. The files are painful to read. I ran into one or two where LA times (or lawyers) highlighted parts they thought were significant; a thread of comments about confidentiality and media coverage. It took a lot of though on what those words meant and the context of the comments. The highlighted parts dealt with confidentiality. The case had prosecutors, police, parents and press (word chosen for alliteration ... a media representative that as also on the local council executive board) not pass the information onto the local newspaper. All parties agreed on the action course. Press were involved. It really begged a pre-existing judgement to decide if it was noise or damming evidence. To be honest, where the IVF files really creep me out is just how many times everyone (parents, police, council, etc) push for the perpetrator to get treatment or that it's treated as a morality crime. Or that the conviction is dealt with a really short jail time or even just probation. ... To see parents write letters asking that their son's abuser get treatment just creeps me out.

Many of us have read dozens and dozens of files. It's not that the files are hearsay and innuendo. It's that the interpretation people are applying is often twisted by decades of time having passed or ignoring context or simply begging the conclusion people want to present. Of the thousands of files, you will be able to find ones that are not handled well. From what I've read, most (not all) seem like they were handled reasonably given the time and place.

Printed materials from 1960s/70s were still the believe your government / trust authority. The street protests of the late 1960s were opposite. The printed materials were 20 years behind. I'll track down the referenced examples.

I just can't imagine. What a hell of a caricatured childhood to grow up in. Dumb question - I fear even asking. What was a soft hands contest? That makes no sense.

@ThenNow ... As always, I respect what you say and appreciate your writing it clear and well. I agree BSA has improved over the years. Some on it's own. Some by court. I don't accept BSA had a higher standard. I saw your earlier post quoting the BSA handbook. It was the same post-war marketing rhetoric we often saw talking about people in position. I often think about the TV show MASH episode that mocked the rhetoric when the episode was about making a pre-movie war news reel. Hawkeye and Trapper John entered the tent with narration about sainted doctors in surgical garb. ... That was the time. Same with Disney school documentaries or the Mr. Science hour or many other different videos. That does not automatically create a higher expectation. I think about about groups that clearly failed that explicitly did have higher standards. Police. Courts. Schools. etc. I also don't accept the conceal statement. But, we've been thru this many times. I guess this discussion is who-posts last.

STEM ... Trades ... Traditional MBs ... Perhaps the best way to decide the direction to go is to just measure popularity. A summer camp should see which are popular ... probably a result of the camp offering a great program / experience. Those that are popular are the ones that scouts probably enjoy and benefit from. Perhaps just minimize naming / categorization into STEM / TRADES. Any MB can be categorized different ways. IMHO, do scouts enjoy and benefit. Perhaps the real issue is special STEM marketing and special groupings of STEM into special awards that feel like marketing.

My youngest son took a combined welding and metal working summer camp session. Acetylene torch welding. Blast furnace. Anvil, tongs and hammer. ... Scared him to death initially, but then he really got into it. ... The "gifts" he brought home got wrapped in a blanket so they would scratch my car or puncture the car seats. I never really understood if it was just "trades" or STEM. IMHO, these types of classes were the best. REASON: He will never get these experiences elsewhere. It's eye opening.

There are many reasons. ... Though over 100 years and 100m+ youth, you will always find examples to criticize BSA, in most case files I read there was a reasonable good path taken by BSA. From what I've read, BSA was far from minimizing and hiding. The last file discussed had the unit committee (parents of the scouts), state attorney and state police involved. This is a common pattern in many of the files. The direct purpose of the IVF files was to block dangerous volunteers. The very same volunteers that cities, police and parents often did not do anything about. Basic humanity is often very ugly, and often large groups blame individuals for the group's failure.

committee = BSA is the "legal" interpretation. Morally, labeling "BSA" because it's the unit leaders is just manure. There were tens of millions of unit leaders and millions more. To call that "BSA" is calling all of society BSA. .... But that would be more correct as BSA has traditionally been a large cross-section of our nation ... with a congressional charter and a presidential review. ... It's why I still strongly assert the response was a sign of the times. committee did not want publicity is more accurately stated as Mayberry USA did not want the publicity ... AND also the kid's parents did not want publicity. That would be a statement I could accept. ... I'm not sure what is in page 4. It could be very private information such as membership cards of the youth and all youth involved. IMHO, obscured content is usually to protect youth. ... three perpetrators ... yeah, that sounds abnormal. I'm not sure what it means either. ... That's the trouble from trying to understand the context from 50 years ago. I can guess, but it would not be useful.

It's a partial statement from years ago with little context and virtually zero detail. I asked @johnsch322 for the IVF case file name. Thank you @johnsch322 Who requested that the boys not get too much publicity? ... From other pages in that file, it references the victims parents did not want state attorney to press charges. ... The IVF file also lists a state police file number and how BSA national can get more information from the state police. It also lists the state attorney general and the investigating officer (officer Potts) ... The reference to "services of State Trooper John Simms" (according to other pages) refers to Simms stepping up as SM for the coming year to help a troop really damaged by this incident. There is no inference Simms covered anything up. ... Rather, Simms (an Eagle scout) stepped up in a really ugly situation. ... Which begs asking how many people knew ... "committee" knew according to the file ... Most committees are staffed 90% by the parents of the current scouts. ... So, this may or may not have been in the press. It was in police investigated and well known. Yeah, the file does reference trying to preserve scoutings name too. But generally, this file seems to be a good reflection on the IVF files working as they were intended and shows many people did the right actions. A real sign of the times was a short phrase: Police filed no charges, rather the perpetrator was under doctors care and being treated. Yeah, it was treated as a disease and treatment centers that helped alcoholics also treated these individuals.

Posted in another thread. A good example of why the original rule might not have been sinister at all. Given the parental passions and volunteer conflicts, I could understand why an organization wanted to triage out the noise. A great cost savings was when BSA updated YP to route all calls to a government public organization. Let that organization handle a large share of the noise.

@Cburkhardt ... THANK YOU !!!!! I suspect I've seen this path happen a few times in the recent years. The triaging was probably the reason the original YP policy said to call the SE first.

I remember that training. It was before scout leaders were considered mandatory reporters. There was some view that a professional was needed to properly handle the reporting. It did not look weird. That appearance was far worse than any intension. ... but then again ... I've seen multiple abuse complains from mothers submitted due to shoe throwing, etc. ... So, I could see early opinions that a professional was needed to triage out bickering volunteers. BUT, yeah it should have always been call the police.

It's not that simple. Many troops assign their ASMs special roles / forcus areas. That does not automatically make it two positions. @SPG above had a well written answer that aligns with my view. The job(s) should align with how the troop works, and it can change over time. For me, the big question is whether the scouts work with the person. Is the job to be scout-facing? If yes, ASM. If scout's won't know the person's name, committee. If the youth know PERSON X is who they go to for advancement ... if PERSON X attends summer camp to help the scouts get to MB classes or helping scouts learn skills or handing out MBC names and blue cards ... that smells like an ASM job coordinated with the SM. If the youth have zero idea who PERSON X is or what they do AND in-the-background PERSON X gets paperwork from the SM; tracks what needs to be purchased; purchases; prepares awarding cards for the COH, then it is a committee role. Also, why does advancement have to be a single person? How about a tag team? Scout facing ASM and background supporting committee member. Do what works best with the adults you have.

This really begs deeper and deeper analysis. the Scout's Honor article pointing out that BSA started warning about CSA back in 1986 in the official BSA scouting leader magazine seems telling. I was not a leader in the 1970s or 1980s. Outside of individual cases, it seems that actions were occurring.

COVID. Lawsuit. Twenty years of bad press. ... Scouting is in for twenty years of rebuilding. AND, hopefully re-definition and re-discovery.

Congratulations on making changes and having a great year !!!! Nothing kills the "summer camp" experience like over-controlling, over-planning, over-scheduling and too many adults. Half the fun for the scouts is the free time and discovering things to do on their own.

I'll double and triple that recommendation. You do NOT want to walk the rocks barefoot. We did out island adventure and tall ship sailing. When coming and going to the island, you can walk thru sharp rocks and also algae and muck. You do not want small cuts and/or bacteria getting in. Some type of foot covering is important.

Hugely agree. When my dad was a kid, they played cowboys and indians. Gabby Hayes and John Wayne were in the theaters. My friends and I played Hogans Heroes as kids. We watched re-runs of Gilligans Island. This generation has been online their whole lives playing Minecraft and drowning in politically correct messages. The OA scripts are old and out of place. Much of the script can be salvaged. ... Time for something simple and authentic.

@ThenNow ... I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I'm one who likes a good debate and learning the details. I always appreciate your responses. ... IMHO ... not a lawyer ... just someone who has slept at Holiday Inns ... I can see companies (BSA and insurance) able to make vigorous real defense to the above four point concealment requirements. The question is whether it's in their best interest to strongly argue. In this case, BSA knew they would be sued into bankruptcy. The legal cases themselves were too costly. ... My real surprise is that most insurance companies are not digging deep to defend these cases tooth and nail. A few points ... Really edited down words as I think this is a massive debatable argument Duty We're talking moral duty of an involved, knowledgeable party, as the legislated legal duty did not exist until fairly recently. How do you prove/defend against generalizations of inaction from decades ago. The adults involved are mostly dead. "Sir, you received the report of this abuse. What was your first action?" Silence. The tombstone is quiet. Thus, concealment liability is proven. Worse, it's hard to prove/defend failure to disclose (concealment liability) of a middle-man (BSA) based on the lack of action of the police or parents or schools or charter orgs. ... For example, police might not have had a law to charge or the parents direct to not pursue or ... We have been through the debate many times ... Standards of the day are irrelevant ? Nuances ... I believe you are saying this because BSA had a moral duty as an involved, knowledgeable party that made standards of the day irrelevant ... But to do what? We expect them to act based on today's standards, but society would have reacted then based on common patterns that happened then. ... Society was not prepared or actually pushing against. What do you do? ... This was happening broadly in society ... That was BSA's documented publicly published in 1986. ... BSA communicated in multiple articles that year in Scouting Magazine for the volunteers to know CSA is a concern and to be aware and alert. ... I'm saying this as irrelevancy is not fully mitigated because you don't know they did not pursue or that actions of others were strongly contributing to the failure to escalate. ... I'll never forget when I read in several of the early cases (1970s/1980s???) were charged as contributing to the delinquency of a minor ... inferring the minor was delinquent (in the wrong). I'm saying ... "irrelevant" is not clean cut for standards of the day ... strong arguments can be made ... "judge ... look at the following 500 IVF files ... we documented the police actions" ... "judge ... look at these files ... parents were involved and everyone who has knowledge of the discussions is not dead and gone" ... "judge ... we can show those phone calls happened in these cases ... where is there evidence we did not do it" ... "judge ... you do we defend duty to disclose based on the non-action of a 3rd party" I'm saying concealment / failure to disclose / standard of day / etc can be strongly argued.

I really want to reply point by point. I really do. The article is inflammatory and one-sided. I'll select a few... * "few Americans had the collection of reports on pedophiles that the BSA had in its file cabinets." ... Every major school district. Every major police force. Major teaching organizations and medical professions. Aggregate these into national federations and associations. ... Simply google "2022 school teacher sexual abuse" .... If those organizations did not have the files, it's because they choose to not take it seriously or that it was dangerous to track. ... The trained, credentialed professionals whose professional job is to help and protect youth. ... Then, consider the numbers. ... LA Times said 5000 IVF files from 1947 to 2005. That averages less than 2 per year per state. BSA membership was steady for decades at 5 million youth members and 1 million adult members per year. .... A single case is unacceptable, but the IVF numbers don't paint a picture of BSA having unique numbers. ... Even the 80,000+ numbers in BSA's bankruptcy seem drastically under-reported compared to the statistical expectation we'd expect to see in society. * "No one, therefore, reported the cases to the BSA's health and safety committee" ... Until recently, criminal activity of individuals was not viewed as a health and safety matter. Drowning. Gun safety. That was health and safety. Crime was crime. * "Thus uninformed, Menninger sat in a 1987 deposition" ... 1987? ... Uninformed? ... The same Patrick Boyle Scout's Honor book also pointed out that in 1986 BSA quoted Menninger in BSA's Scouting Magazine ... BSA communicating to it's volunteer scout leaders ... that "Child Abuse: A Critical Issue in Our Society," ... BSA quoted Menninger to it's volunteers saying all types of abuse is "much more prevalent than anybody would like to admit." ... The following month in 1986 BSA again had more in Scouting Magazine asking parents to address sexual abuse by those in authority. ... page 273. I'm not trying to say BSA was perfect. ... But it's just ugly re-writing of history to say BSA was doing nothing. It's ridiculous to say BSA had uniquely special knowledge about CSA.

I hope it's not true. That would be an injustice to the 100+ million youth that have been involved and the 50+ million former registered leaders. ... It is already hard to watch the stealing the hard earned donations of families of volunteers. ... It would hurt many, many more in the future. The comforting aspect is that camps have always come and gone. New camps and new locations will be donated and grow. The real injustice will be the hundreds of millions spent on this process with little effective compensation to victims. People are angry at BSA. ... I'm sorry for their experience. There are no words to say. It's anger and it's directed at BSA ... I see the IVF files as hard evidence of action. Any records will show mistakes, but it also shows effort to block what the rest of society was not preventing. It also shows many parts of society (police, families and others) being involved. ... I congratulate BSA on all the good they did. ... I congratulate BSA on having the IVF files. ... I absolutely don't accept the "general" accusations that BSA did nothing or ignored or hid. ... That's just anger from being hurt. Much of this is legal maneuvering because there is potentially a deep cash pocket.

I really hate reading my own typos.