fred8033

Opted out.... Reasons for not selling - #1 Very high product cost relative to perceived value - #2 Arbitrary product people don't really need - #3 Low profit margin for unit (Our pack is donating some of our fundraiser results to FOS this year.) Suggested changes - Different product - Different profit margin If changed, would you sell - Popcorn ... probably not

Beavah's right. I thought it was valid too, but looked at GTA and it explicitly says it's only for star and life. Not eagle.

I don't know the scout or the situation and the scout was sloppy to leave things to the last moment. But in the scout's defense, most teenagers don't think far in advance. He has time. I always view it as the scoutmaster's job to help every scout. Let the scout succeed or fail on his own. But if a scout came to me asking for help, I'm going to help. Shame on the scoutmaster for essentially saying tough luck. Now there's also no requirement for the SM to bend over backwards. But the good scoutmaster's do. So with that said, call the SM NOW. Figure out the situation. If the SM won't help, he could transfer or go through the process in a protest mode. If the scoutmaster won't help, call the district advancement coordinator tonight! ... OR find another scoutmaster in another troop that will help. Help the scout get through these hurdles. Most of them (dealing with SM attitude or district advancement chair) are beyond a scout's responsibility and reflect adult beurocracy. ... #1 Make sure you use the POR list from the eagle application. That list is different than the PORs acceptable for star and life. #2 See if he has any POR time since his life BOR. POR time can be glued together. #3 Most troop positions are "APPOINTED" and can be appointed at any time. Talk to the SPL ASAP! #4 Also, there is no rule the troop can only have one in a specific position. For example, many troops have multiple ASPL(s) and multiple troop guide(s). It's okay as long as the scouts are actually doing something in their PORs. Avoid giving the scout a POR where he won't fulfill a responsibility. Here's an idea.... See if the SPL has concerns about troop gear or similar. He could appoint a 2nd quartermaster whose sole focus is on tents (check-in and out; inspection; repair and replacement; ...). Or appoint a 2nd ASPL whose sole focus is inspections or seeing that patrols are doing useful activities during the patrol meeting times. #5 There's also the Scoutmaster assigned project. We've done that before. The scout wanted to help fix our attendance records and procedures. A fairly big task and involved changing troop practices. So that was his scoutmaster assigned project. ... Because of the June 12 birthday, he needs a POR on or before Dec 11th (or 12th ... as soon as possible). Less then a week. Don't wait! Call on the phone. See if he can get a POR starting tonight. ... Don't let anything wait. Get moving now. If you can't tell, I've seen this happen before.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: "Government run pensions (and unregulated private pensions for that matter) are just a bad idea" Agreed. But for the employees (gov works, teachers, police, firefighters, ...), pensions are a good bet because a pension program is basically a government liability paid by the taxpayer. Hard to lose money unless the state declares bankruptcy, if even then. It seems that a big change in our state teacher pensions is that the pension program had relatively few retired teachers from under those contracts in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s when the pension programs grew in benefits. Only in the last ten or twenty years have teachers started entering retirement in mass that are due to benefit from the better pension programs. It will be interesting how that affects state budgets. ... I just don't understand government debt. People like divide national debt by the population to figure out the per person liability. Or divide it by tax payer. National debt ... $43k per citizen. $100k per tax return. But, that's meaningless. The bottom 36% of tax returns have zero income tax liability. The bottom 50% of tax returns only pay 2.7% of all the income taxes. The debt is only meaningful when proportionate to the taxpayer. I probably did it wrong, but I should be in the ball park. Top 1% earners start at $380k. Effective tax rate of 23%. Their share of all income taxes paid is 38% giving them a per person debt liability of $4.2 million each. That's ten years of income or about 40 years of taxes on that same income. Of course their current taxes are used for servicing debt and current programs. Top 5% earners have income starting at $160k and have an average tax rate of 21%. Their share of all income taxes is 58.7%. They have a national debt liability of $1.3 million each. That's eight years of total income as debt or around 40 years of taxes to pay debt (if thsoe taxes weren't already used to pay for something else). I just don't understand government debt. ... Now combine unfunded teacher pensions with current debt liabilities. What does it mean per taxpayer who's footing the bill?(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Gotta love this debate. Anyone using the term socialism in a debate is just blowing smoke and making a political argument. Both republicans and democrats. Liberals and conservatives. Socialism has no EXACT definition anymore unless you add a context source. It's a over-used worn out term. One of the earliest definitions I could find is the Marx/Engels one: a step in the historical process from capitalism toward communism. ... BUT.... There was a post I got a kick out of. quote: "The thing is that liberals generally weren't the ones touting European "socialism." Perhaps, more accurately, some liberals were (and many still are) touting "social democracy," by which people typically mean that a society places more emphasis on collaborative problem solving and a strong social safety net. Social democracy tends to be more widely accepted in most - not all - European states than in the US. Then, of course, painting the varied political & economic systems of 30+ countries in an entire continent with the same brush ("European socialism!") is dangerous and prone to being wildly inaccurate. The differences between, say, the Swiss economy, the Danish economy, the French economy, the Polish economy, and the Greek economy are staggering. Same goes for their political systems. Those differences are more obvious, and more salient, these days." I had to look up social democracy because I've known it for years and thought I understood it. Merriam Webster: a political movement advocating a gradual and peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism by democratic means ... a democratic welfare state that incorporates both capitalist and socialist practices Look up "social democracy" ... "to achieve socialism" ... "economic redistribution" ... "eliminate class disparities" ... Of course, "social democracy" is very different than "democratic socialism" which is more focused on the welfare state and less on socialism. Seriously folks. It all becomes mush at some point. Eventually, the whole debate is just political positioning and ridiculous. .... I like "Jay K"s definition with one modification. I have two cows and the government makes me give one of the cows to my neighbor. But I personally know Jay and he's a good guy. .... I can see both sides of the socialism discussion. It's not simple. I'm a huge huge Ayn Rand fan, but I think her vision is unrealistic and creates a pretty ugly world. I believe in social justice, a safety net (public and private) and using government to create opportunity and to give people help up from bad situations. But I cringe at growing government. I cringe at the size of contracts for most government services and yes including teachers, policeman and firefighters. Their jobs are very hard. But the contracts are huge and generous. And when a union pension program loses money, it's a government bailout. Yes, a simple analysis. It's happened locally to the scale of hundreds of millions of dollars. But wait, didn't we already pay into the pension program? Now we need to pay again for no additional work performed? And the argument in favor of the bailout is how hard and dangerous their jobs were. Wait? Wasn't that argument used to get the contract originally? And that original contract was pretty generous to begin with. Complain to your union steward, not the legislature. Or rather invest as the teacher unions did in tobacco companies. Teacher pension programs made huge profits off tobacco for decades while teaching kids its bad to smoke. And when society changes, those contracts bankrupt local government. As much as I love public schools, I'd love to see school districts split up if nothing else than to reduce costs and to make families value education more. Of course, I want public health care too. I guess I'm one big contradiction. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

September dues are the way to go. Fully agree with momof2cubs and MarinesWife. Families expect to pay at the start of the school year and recruitment happens in September. As such, we get everyone to pay dues all at once and then be done with it. It's just not realistic to expect people to step forward and pay after the year has started. And it's too much for volunteers to chase funds later in the year. ... SeattlePioneer - I sympathize with your challenge. Our troop used to discount dues based on fundraising and other things. But it got to be too much work and too hard to explain. And financially, it was almost a wash with the simple way we are doing it now. Now each scout gets a higher portion of fundraising profits. Right now 80%. We are aiming for 100% profit to the scouts. Our goal is to keep the troop spending within the annual dues. I think we are already there. Now, it's just a matter of good financial discipline to prove that. We treat everything as adjustments to scout accounts. Each scout account looks something like this. Date Charge Balance 9/1/2011 ........ $ 10 Starting balance as of 9/1/2011 9/1/2011 $ -75 $ -65 Annual dues of $75 10/01/2011 $ -30 $ -95 Camp - District camporee 10/01/2011 $ 30 $ -65 Camp - Payment 10/30/2011 $ -200 $-265 Fundraising - Sales total 11/30/2011 $ 200 $ -65 Fundraising - Collected funds 11/30/2011 $ 72 $ 7 Fundraising - Share of profits ... SeattlePioneer wrote: "The real key is understanding that it's not especially important for a Scout to be re registered as part of the rechartering process." Ummm... that depends. I'm not 100% sure of your point. If they are not on the rechartering paperwork, they are technically not scouts. The key issue is if they are not registered they are explicitly "not active" and can't receive advancement. You can still give them stuff, but it would be unofficial. It could be an issue if they ever need clean records for an Eagle application or Arrow of Light award.

Yep. It happens. Some kids are really picky and have been catered to for their whole lives. Heck, of my four sons, two will eat anything. One is slightly picky. One is very picky and would rather just wait to eat when he gets home Sunday if there is nothing he likes. He is slightly less picky on a week long camp out, but he will try to hold out.

Great article... (long read though). This weekend my friend and ASM said "It's easy to let go when your pushing." My new favorite quote. He and I were playing cribbage. One of the newer parents had just finished a game of cribbage with us but wanted to check on his son. And, then ended up driving his son to McDonalds because his son wouldn't eat anything the scouts were having. So the ASM and I were discussing what we could do to have the father on the periphery and not continually interacting with his son. I suggested using a technique effective on both toddlers and teens - switch and distract (i.e. adult hikes, explore the camp, socializing and card games). We can't make the parent leave his own son alone, but we can switch and distract. The ASM had been providing the father quiet advice such as the comment that it takes about a year for cub scouts to get used to being in boy scouts and about three years for the parents. Just friendly hints. After the father left for lunch with his son, the ASM and I continued chatting and playing cribbage. We reflected on if we let our own sons have their own separate scouting experiences. I said that I thought that I did a pretty good job of letting go. The ASM laughed. "It's easy to let go when your pushing." I think he was referring to my having just kicked my own son away from our card game and asking him if he knew where his patrol mate were. I don't ignore my son on camp outs. I just want to make sure that 90% to 95% of his scouting time is spent with scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I'd be okay with with the council having the funds if there was a web page that I could use to review the account status (balance, debits, credits, corrections, WITH DESCRIPTIVE INFO --> WHO WHAT WHEN WHY WHERE. Give a sign-on to unit authorized people. At 11pm when I have a question, I could connect and review the status. Until that occurs, I doubt we'll use a council accounts.

Council accounts? Yes. Managed by council. Not the scout shop. Receive statements? No. Never. I question if they really have good accounting controls. Withdraws without notifying unit? Yes. I don't think there's any double check as who can use the account at the scout shop or other. IMHO, it's a black hole. Have you ever had a problem with a council unit account? Not really. Other than being surprised that there is no money and not being able to learn what happened. I'd like to be able to have a cash reserve of $500 or $1000 at the council office, but I just don't trust the financial controls.

7220 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89119 ... Las Vegas Scout shop. My wife and I were there two months ago. Nicest staff and scout store I've seen. Spent four nights and five nights in Vegas. Only souvenirs I bought were from the scout shop. My wife was frustrated. It would have been $40 cheaper if we did not rent a car during our trip. Then I sheepishly admitted I wanted to hit the scout store. Love the council patch. It's red with the big diamond Vegas sign that you see when you enter the city.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

When scouts join the troop we have a chat with the parents. - We let them know that attendance is not mandatory. We recognize that scouts have competing priorities and scouts will need to make priority decisions. - We also discuss that scouts do depend on each other. So missing a meetings and activities affects other scouts and the troop as a whole. - We do ASK that parents don't use scouts as a punishment. Scouting is trying to teach lessons and be a positive influence on their sons. Why would you deny a positive influence on their lives as a punishment. - Finally, we point out that, as with all things in life, you get out what you put in. If your not at scout meetings and events, your not going to benefit from the scouting program and you won't build the scouting friendships. ... I'm sort of uncomfortable being on the same side of the topic as Beavah on this one. ... It seems like at every meeting we have one or two scouts that sit in the corner and do homework. They particpate in the meeting portions where they are needed, but then focus on homework during the skills, games or other segments. But our meeting location has quiet nooks in the meeting room that loans itself to that.

Explaining the ideas and goals and child/parent separation is fine. I do it all the time. Asking parents not to exercise the right is a grey area. I wouldn't do it. But in all cases, it should be clearly communicated that parents have the right to observe. And then if a parent requests it, the parent must be allowed to observe. ... KC9DDI wrote: "If a parent demands to attend a ceremony, camp next to their child, whatever - we have to allow that. " I differ with the "next to their child". Parents don't have that right. They have the right to observe. IMHO, that means OA/unit leaders can insist on some amount of separation to allow the program work it's goals. Maybe that means observing OA ceremonies 25 or 50 feet behind the OA member observers. Or parents camp out the other side of the camp site. Or parents hang in the background during the teaching of skills. But ... if parents can't be satisfied as separated observers and the OA/unit leaders can't live with the parent interaction, then the parents and the child need to move on. To be honest, this has never come up in our realm. Most parents and leaders seem to get it.

I haven't read all the many posts in this discussion as the conclusion is obvious in my opinion. G2SS explicitly documents the answer. The "no secret organizations" and "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders" are direct quotes from the G2SS in a chapter titled "Youth Protection and Adult Leadership". You can't get any more basic then that. ................. Summer camp versus OA - The difference is where. Most parents learn about the separation while on their first few camp outs with the troop. And it's a good idea to have the discussion with parents about giving their kids space. But if a parent asks, they have the right to observe. Yes, try to minimize their visibility and impact on the OA activities and ceremonies, but parents have the right. BSA explicitly documents that under "youth protection".

Eagle707 ... well said. I completely agree with your "program focus" comments. Eagle is promoted so heavily and put on such a pedestal by everyone, it's only natural that earning it has become such a focus. And also a focus by those saying there are too many of them.

Tampa Turtle ... I just read your "no more automatic POR check-offs speech" comment. I'm good with having high expectations. It's how it's accomplished that I contemplate. What Chippewa29 wrote above is an interesting practice but "might" be inconsistent with the BSA "Guide To Advancement". The removing from office part is a dead on correct. If the scout is not doing his job, the SPL should put a scout in there who's willing to do the job. BUT ... "If they get below a 2.5 (out of 5) average score for the month, they won't get credit toward advancement" contradicts the BSA GTA. GTA says that's when unit leaders (youth and adult) work with the scout to understand expectations and correct perceptions. GTA section 4.2.3.4.5 says "Often this questioning approach can lead a young man to the decision to measure up. He will tell the leaders how much of the service time should be recorded. [paragraph] ... If it becomes clear nothing will improve his performance, then it is acceptable to remove the Scout from his position." ... The key is that if a scout hasn't met expectations, the SM (or another leader) should work with the scout to understand the issue and to ask the scout how much time to credit. I find it interesting that BSA calls out in large print in GTA section 4.2.3.4.5 "Only in rare casesif evershould troop leaders inform a Scout that time, once served, will not count." So if the cases are "rare cases - if ever", then it's okay. If it's the common analysis procedure and result, then I question the practice. IMHO (not BSA based), I don't care for the numerical job grading analysis because it's too focused on advancement requirements and not letting a scout slip by without earning his advancement. I'd rather see the process by focused on responsibility and troop needs. Let advancement fall where it may based on running a healthy troop. IMHO (also not BSA based), POR scorecards are like using 15+ forms to camp. "Forms" and "procedures" are not leadership. They are ISO 9000 management and tend to be adult driven.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

It's a different world today. Society has changed drastically in the last several decades. Students in college (in millions) 1970 8.5 1980 12.0 1990 13.8 2000 15.3 2009 20.4 (140% increase) Manufacturing jobs (in millions) 1987 17.5 2000 17.3 2010 11.7 (33% decrease) Incentives? Padding the college and job resumes. Higher pay grade when entering the military. I think the higher Eagle numbers reflects a change in society more than a change in scouting. But I was not in the program 20 or 30 years ago so it is hard to compare. What I can see is that youth are busier than ever making it hard to get time in scouting. Parents are more driven to see their kids achieve in all areas. For scouting, internet and advancement opportunities abound. So I suspect a youth earning Eagle today works just as hard if not harder than those who earned it 20, 30 or 40 years ago.

IMHO, Cub Scouts and Venturing have a similar problem. Leader turn-over, focus and training. Boy Scouts is unique in that leaders get invested and then stay long enough to develop knowledge and skill and to make it work. Then the investment is such that they often stay another ten years just because they enjoy it. Venturing pushes more of the leadership to the members. Members who are busy with school, new relationships, trying new things and just getting started with life. Members that do or should leave when they are 21. The program also does not produce enough "invested" advisors. Boy Scouts does it by having a parent be an ASM for five years. Troop leaders have enough fun they often stick around after their kids leave. But with Venturing, crews usually have one or two advisors. No other adults with knowledge, skill or commitment to pick up the ship (no pun intended) when the advisor leaves. Inconsistent leaderhip produces an inconsistent program and inconsistent results. Members move on. Programs die. ... I don't know the fix except that perhaps troops and crews would benefit from each other if tied better together.

Does anyone really think that YPT will stop a predator from signing up? YPT is about removing opportunity. If you remove opportunity, predators will go elsewhere. The key is to create an environment that has built in defenses. In our troop, we teach new parents / leaders to help create a climate that it just doesn't happen. It's not about accusing anyone. It's about the environment. For example, if an adult is going to hang back to wait for a scout, hang back with 'em. If a leader is going to go check on the scouts, put your cards down and walk with 'em. Don't make a big deal of it. Just be a friendly shadow for the other adult. Will 2-deep make a difference if both adults are predators? I'm not sure I've ever heard of such a case. I've always heard about the lone predator. I'm not sure if being a serial predator loans itself to partnering up. Predators groom victims developing trust and it takes time. Yes there are crime partners for theft, rape and other things. But those crimes are hard to hide. I wonder of the 50 or so coaches in my baseball league, how many are predators? Probably none. Now if the coach starts inviting the team over for sleep overs or brushes a kid's hair or ...., then I'd have a concern.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

This is the link I've seen for years. http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Boyscout-troop.gif ASPL and SPL both supervise leaders. SPL --> PLs and TG. ASPL --> other youth leaders. Troop guides are mainly used for new scout patrols, but can also be used to mentor new scouts or mentor skills. There's no rule you need to fill all the positions. If you don't need them or can't find a way to productively use them, don't staff them. With that said, our troop does staff most if not all positions.

The new "Eagle Scout Service Project workbook", pub 512-927 2011 printing says on page 22: "At the time of publication of this workbook, changes were being made to the Guide to Safe Scouting that will affect how service projects are conducted. The changes limit the use of hazardous power tools, machinery, and equipment, and also such activities as working at heights or on ladders, and driving motor vehicles." On page 14 it says "*Power tools considered hazardous, like circular saws, must be operated by adults who are experienced in their use. See the Guide to Safe Scouting." Another case where BSA updates one document and the other is "pending". At least the updated document took note of the pending change.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Never really cared for leadership corps, senior patrol, honor patrol or what ever you want to call it. Sure it works for some troops. Never cared for it myself. Never cared for adults shadowing youth positions ... except maybe the quartermaster, maybe. SPL should choose a good ASPL. ASPL should have clear responsibilities that includes overseeing the chaplain aides, librarians, scribes, etc. SPL works with ASPL to see that things are occuring. ASPL works with those positions to make sure things are happening. Get the adults out of the picture as much as possible.

Tampa Turtle wrote: "I see TOO MUCH use of the meritbadge.org worksheets. Boys think they look stuff up, fill them out, and they get the MB." Absolutely. Those worksheets are okay for notes or organization, but when it says discuss I insist on discuss. It's about the interaction of two people. I don't really care if the scout wrote anything down as most requirements are not "write an essay". I always feel bad for the scout who fills the worksheets in detail. Good for him as it's impressive, but it usually isn't required. Instead, he needs to jump thru a different hoop such as discuss or explain.

Not your place to decide if he's Eagle worthy or not. Let the Eagle advancement be his journey, not yours. Be consistent. Support his advancement to the same amount you'd support any other scout. Look for opportunities to be a positive influence on his character, his life and his skills. That's about all you can do.

"with prejudice" just means they can't sue for the same incidence. They settled so the incident can't be re-opened in court. "without prejudice" means they could go to court again for the same incident.