fred8033

moosetracker - You said it all earlier. "COR/IH of the CO will trump all". All the voting you talk about is an okay idea, but not BSA procedures or forms based. It's how your CO does it. It's fine. It builds consensus and support. But it's the CO/COR that is 100% responsible, not the committee. If the CO/COR wants to get rid of the CC without talking to anyone first or holding a vote, BSA is just fine with that.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Feeling very disillusioned right now. Just when I started respecting our neighbors from the north, eh.

For our council, yes. Our pack is on the 2nd year of Lion cubs. Last year we had eleven kindergarten Lions. Looks similar for this year. No real rank patch yet that I've seen.

"Scout is not a rank." Yeah, been in those discussions. Over the years, BSA has sometimes called it a rank. Othertimes a badge. Now, a badge. But it's worn on the uniform in the place where the BSA inspection sheet says "rank" patches go. Also, if you ask a scout what rank he is, he'll say he's a scout. He won't say "I have no rank." As far as I'm concerned, if they have no rank, the shirt pocket should be empty. But, that's me. Badge vs Rank ... It's a legalistic and useless point. I just don't care for the Bobcat "badge" because the kids are never really Bobcats. Plus we now need space for the Lion rank on the shirts. "Joining requirement" Not really. I've known kids who take months to get their Bobcat. Are they NOT supposed to come to meetings until they know the Cub Scout promise? Are they not really Cub Scouts until Bobcat is earned? For kids that join at the same time, it works fine. For kids that join off schedule, they often earn the Bobcat and rank badge at the same meeting. Not right, but it happens 50% of the time.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I agree in that the decision process can be whatever the CO/COR wants. And yes, the CO/COR can delegate the decision. But as far as BSA is concerned it's only the CO/COR (or the CC himself) who can remove a CC based on that delegated decision. Check the BSA registration forms: signature of the CC and signature of the COR. There is no place for the whole committee to sign.

The committee can't vote the CC out. The CC appoints the committee. It's a top down organization. Only the CO (executive) or COR can do this. No formal process. Once the CO or COR decides it needs to be done, it can be just done. A short talk or letter saying: "thank you but your services are not needed anymore. " No explaination even needed. But best to smooth the water as best you can. The decision process and communication is fully at the discretion of the CO and/or COR. It's their choice. It is best to immediately go to the scout office and have the CC removed from the unit membership roster. Until that is done, the CC administers the unit. It is best to have a new CC ready to step in.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Parents gets confused each year. Do I join a Bobcat den or a Tiger den ? It's confusing as it is not parallel with other ranks or even Boy Scouts. In Boy Scouts, "scout" is the initial rank and it is a real rank they stay at until they earn the next. In Cub scouts, the scouts have the rank matching their school grade and they are working to earn that rank. No scout is ever really a Bobcat (as in rank.) Bobcat is good because it gets the scout up in front of everyone fairly quickly. But it seems that could be done just by a welcoming ceremony or greeting. I'd rather see the bobcat requirements added to the start of each Cub Scout rank. Then, drop Bobcat.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Wow. "All commercial products must sell on their own merits, not the benefit received by the Boy Scouts." Two years ago I found the exact box of Trails End microwave popcorn at Walmart. The box was $2.50 (or cheaper). It was $15 thru scouts. The only difference was the scouts added a paper/cardboard wrapper to make it look right for fundraising. The box and inside product was the exact same product. When we sell wreaths, we can sell them for pretty much the same price stores sell them for. Makes it hard to argue for popcorn as the fundraiser.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

If it wasn't for the cost and effort (expensive shirt and multiple units), I've wanted to create an every day, out in public Class A (minimal decorations) and a court of honor Class A (knots and all the plumage). Just a thought.

I dead on agree with Tampa Turtle. "My sons were and always up for something during the summer. They will even volunteer for adult work days if it is scouting related... "Over the years my attitude has changed. I say offer a summer program and not worry who shows up. Make it something you enjoy anyway and celebrate those who come. Don't get a chip on your shoulder over who does not. Best cub meeting ever was only me and my co-leader and our sons. We almost cancelled but decided to go on. It was like a father-son play-date. My boy still remembers it 5 years later as one of his favorite times. "By doing an activity and going forward even with a few boys you send a clear message to those boys: you are important enough to do this with. "I think barriers to Summer Program is the parents." Especially, the "parent" issue. I think this is key. I've made a real effort to get to know the parents and get us each enjoying each others company. Whether it is cards or just discussing our lives with each other, it doesn't matter. If you can show the parents they matter and enjoy each other's company, they will bring their kids. There is a side benefit too. The kids are then more separated from the adults. The kids get to know each other better. It helps reduce the kids manipulating their parents thru their normal learned habits. This summer we had 62 people attend summer camp, 31 scouts and 31 parents, about 50% of the pack. The last few Cub Scout years have been great. I have four years left and I hope they continue to be as good.

A few scouting accounting practices that have saved us. - Incoming money ... Every deposit is recorded in a new Excel spread sheet listing check # (or cash), amount, purpose, scout credited and name on check if different family than the scout. The spreadsheet amount total matches the amount deposited. It has saved us many times when other records get screwed up. - Outgoing money ... Our bank statements are saved and shared as PDF files and include images of unit checks that were cashed. - We post our files in an online secure spot for sharing documents with other troop leaders. It has saved us when people change computers or computers crash. Everything else can then be recreated or put in Excel, Quicken, QuickBooks or other.

Just to clarify ... NSP has been used multiple ways in this discussion. - I fully believe in NSP (new scout PATROLS) in that scouts join at the same time are probably friends and are at the same level looking to have similar experiences and activities. To me that's a patrol, a set of friends working together to do things. The PL is a member of that patrol and learning leadership by helping his friends try to achieve their objectives. As the new scout patrol learns things, they naturally become just a normal patrol. - I do NOT believe in troop NSP (new scout PROGRAMS) that are formal documented ISO 9001 procedures. Maybe new scout programs run by summer camp staff, but even those I don't particularly like. Every patrol has things they can learn or do better. A new scout patrol just has alot of things that they need mentoring on. As such, the troop guide and/or an ASM pays special attention to them providing guideance and training as needed. I do wish the TERM "new scout patrol" would go away. They are just a patrol that needs a bit more guidance and experience. The troop guide (and SM/ASMs) should be there to help anyone who needs training or help. And the guide would know that a new set of scouts would need a bit more help. ... ... Multiple people in this discussion have helped me learn how to state what I've always thought but could never state cleanly. Troops with large documents, many procedures and many forms are boxing in the scouts and telling them exactly how to do it. It's just a way to hide an adult run troop. It's not teaching leadership. It's teaching process compliance. And, it's doing scouting how adults want to do scouting, not how scouts want to do scouting.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

desertrat77: Agreed. The BSA uniform reminds me of a tie. A tie is a style preferred 30+ years ago and few people wear anymore ... except when required.... Everyone removes ties as soon as possible. I'm sure this is related to why uniforming is such a challenge. I agree that uniforming should be a "method" in scouting. But, ... IMHO ... the purpose of being uniformed is to get the individual to identify as a member of a group; as something more than just a "self". I think the Canadian uniform does that just fine. Move all our flashy stuff off the uniform to the sash. ... ... Side note: My opinion is affected by my disappointment with the centenial unifoorm. I really looked forward to it. BUT ... The belt buckles fail. Scout pants wear out and tear within a year. (My old style pants are going on 8+ years and are in fine shape.) The new shirt stick-on letters and flag fall off. (old shirt was embroidered.) It's not the foreign manufacturing. BSA cut-corners on materials and design. I'm disillusioned as the price stayed very high. It's all marketing hype and little quality. I'm really glad the scout stores have a lifetime replacement guarantee. I've swapped out two belts and three pants. I've got a shirt to swap now too.

February... - Sounds like your Webelos could switch now if they really wanted. That's the common question: Switch now or wait for the whole den? - Almost none wait until end of 5th grade. That's just not how it's done these days. 99% transition at the B&G. It's easier as that's when Webelos from other packs join a troop and it's nice to join together. - February gives your Webelos a chance to get to know the troop before bigger summer camping events. - Don't worry about getting all you can out of Cub Scouts. Boy Scouts is a new adventure. The Arrow of Light is the only lasting Cub Scout award. ... ... It would be nice to learn more about this 50% B&G / 50% end-of-year crossover. That's definitely not what I've heard or seen or published by BSA.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Eagledad... LOL. Yeah, there are some pretty strong scouting opinions out there and the boards don't always stay polite. My apologies to 5yearscouter in advance. The link you posted earlier set off one of my hot buttons. The linked document is very well done and someone put many hours of love into it. BUT ... if I saw that document from a troop, I would run away. I think it all comes down to the type of troop and your view of scouting. I just don't believe a troop needs a large bureaucratic layer on top of the BSA program. Most everything in that document is already in the scout handbook. The troop guide is the troop guide because he's already advanced. So, he should be pretty familiar with the scout handbook. Let him use it as he offers advice and training to the new scouts. I think it also comes down to the view of a troop guide. The linked doc views the troop guide as "RUNNING" the new scout program like a teacher runs a class room. Planning worksheets. Schedule worksheets. Detailed session plans. Flag quiz. Progress charts. I don't view it that way. In our troop, the troop guide is more like a friendly older brother who offers advice and shows the new scouts how to do things. He doesn't run their advancement and he doesn't run a Brownsea program. I just don't think the new scout program needs to be that formal or planned. Encourage? Yes. Check progress? Yes. Provide opportunities? Yes. Run a formal new scout program? No. One of my sons was in a troop like that. It was too much like school and too little fun. IMHO, documents like that reflect adult(s) who wants to inject more control than reflecting a real problem. (I'm for keeping new scouts together by the way. No of this breaking them up into different patrols. That's a different topic though.)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I felt like I was speaking heresy saying I liked the Canadian uniform. Glad I'm not the only one.

I like their scout uniform. Where do they display their advancments?

You don't need to write up anything special or design a new scout program. Refer to the Boy Scout handbook and the Scoutmaster handbook. What's written there is what you do. Other than having a troop guide for advice and guidance during the first 3 to 6 months, they are just like any other patrol. Just remember they choose a patrol leader and are not lead by the troop guide. They may also get a bit of special attention from the scoutmaster to keep them focused on basic skills / initial advancement. But their program is learning the skills to camp and have adventures in scouting. Just so happens those skills are organized as Tenderfoot, 2nd class and 1st class. I've been in troops with formal document new scout patrol agendas / programs. It get stale quick. Have them always bring the Boy Scout handbook. T-2-1 is their patrol program. Let them choose and control the rest.

I've generally thought of myself as middle of the road. I've voted for both parties depending on the candidate. But with the debt discussions, I tend to agree with the cutting side ... if it is possible. I had a hard time trying to decide who is right. But here's some stats from the IRS... I don't have the exact numbers with me right now, but I think I'm pretty close from what I remember. - USA has 311 million people. Roughly 190 million working age. 140 million tax returns. - Of the 140 million tax returns, the top 1% of returns pays 27.6% of the taxes; top 5% pays 57% (might be higher). Top 10% pays almost 70%. Bottom 36% (around 50 million tax returns) have no tax liability. Bottom 25% ... of tax returns ... around 35 million tax returns ... get more money back from the IRS than was paid in. - Debt is approx 14 trillion. Saying it's 45 thousand dollars of debt per person is meaningless when 36% don't contribute to paying back the debt and 25% pull money out thru their tax "return". If you correct for the percent they pay, someone in the top 1% of tax returns has a debt liability of $2,500,000. Someone in the top 5% has a liability of $1,500,000.

Best parts of summer camp - Watching the scouts take over the screen shelter to play magic cards or other board games in the evening. Older scouts teaching the young how to play. It's happened for years. Now we know enough to bring two extra screen shelters. Scouts use two. Adults get one. - Scouts sailing, horseback riding, climbing and other adventures. - Two older scouts who didn't want to do merit badges decided to take a hike to the other side of camp. (3000 acre camp) They were gone a long time. They missed lunch, but got to climb the fire tower. Received messages from staff saying they saw our scouts hiking back. They got back for dinner and fell asleep early that evening. Good for them. - Standing on the boat house deck watching the sunset over the lake. - All the adults playing hearts on the last night of camp. The SPL walks up to us to tell us to pipe down because the scouts are trying to sleep.

Basementdweller hit it on the head. Good healthy troops play laser tag.

Yes. Posting the name and image of a scout and making bad comments about him is inappropriate. But before closing, please remove the link that identifies the scout.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I don't buy the doom and gloom. It's the standard response to change. BUT ... BSA will survive. Scouting will look the same. The same supporters will be there. I should step away now. This is a topic of recuring and never ending debate. We won't resolve it here. ... ... ... Personally, I think we lose more people by disallowing laser tag... but that's a different thread. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I hear you. I just don't believe it. I don't think it would change the membership in any significant way. And it would re-open so many doors that have been shut recently. And the charge that scouting is too liberal these days? I really just don't know what that means. I never really hear that said. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah Nicely said. I just want BSA out of this debate. Both sides are using BSA to advance their own political agendas. Sexuality is not part of the BSA program and BSA encourages scouts to follow their church's religious beliefs. So we already have inconsistencies there. Look at the large list of official BSA religious emblems. There's many faiths represented that allow homosexuality. Isn't that already a contradiction and a little two faced? BSA is asking COs to tangibly support units, but BSA won't support the CO's teachings? Hmmmm..... To be consistent, should BSA start dropping charter partners? That wont happen. (to be clear... I don't want that to happen.) America values tolerance. All BSA needs to say is "BSA will not discriminate based on sexual preference. BSA offers a youth program structure used by many organizations (charter partners) wanting to provide a rich youth program. It is up to those charter partners to select unit leadership that reflect their own values and teachings." Also, BSA is already extremely inclusive. Many many faiths. Leaders of both genders. Many political parties, even a few democrats I hear. I really don't think there will be an exodus. Hard to believe at times, but we are all mature individuals who learn to work together. My faith says its wrong and I agree with that teaching. My neighbor faith says its okay. Guess what, we live together just fine and we are friends. If you think we'll lose membership, how many units and members dropped when BSA started allowing female scoutmasters and cubmasters? I bet almost zero.