fred8033

SeattlePioneer wrote: "Also, I strongly recommend that monthly checking account statements be sent to someone OTHER than the treasurer. To the committee chair if you have one who is wide awake or the Cubmaster. " What a great suggestion! I'll make that part of our SOPs.

Our council 2010 jamboree price was $2,200. For the price, Jamboree is big gamble. Will your son mix well with the adults, the scouts and the troop structure? Will he have new and rich experiences? Do you personally know the adult leaders of the jamboree troop? (Im pretty sure the leaders are already selected and there is not extra space for parents to go with the jamboree troops. Its not for parents to tag along. You just wont know which council jamboree troop your son will be in until he is assigned.) .. Will the troop adults be so focused on making the perfect Jamboree troop to make them look good that they forget to let the scouts have a good time? For my son, he spent a lot of money to get a really bad experience. Before Jamboree, he had 150 nights of troop camping under his belt with many years of leadership and a several high adventures. At his Jamboree troop, he was treated like a little kid. And not just him. Many in his troop were threatened to be sent him including the ASPL, two PLs and other scouts. I later talked with the ASPL and PLs and they confirmed much of what my son told me. Our council 2010 jamboree contingent included tours of Washington D.C. Like a previous poster, my son had already seen most of the tour stuff. The difference was the lack of freedom. On his school trip, the students were given great freedom to explore and locations were coordinated to meet back up. But with scouts they stood in long lines by troop. (One time my son was punished was while the troop waiting yet again to get lined up. They were next to a bathroom. So he used it. The troop left without him. When he came out and caught up with them, he was reprimanded, lost privileges and had to stay with the adults.) The warning I would give is think about your sons home troop. My sons home troop is traditional scouting but easy going. I've never seen a scout threatened with punishment. I've never seen his scoutmaster yell. The troop doesnt work that way. But, the jamboree troop very much did. I always say no two troops are the same and they reflect the collective personality of the adult leaders. Perhaps, Jamborees are easy for scouts that come from strict / procedural / militaristic troops. Its just a big gamble with $1800. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Worth it? Really really depends .... I definitely don't think every part of Woodbadge is useful to everyone. CLASS ROOM MATERIAL ... Insightful material. Very useful if you have never seen it. For me it was only a refresher as it was almost exactly the same stuff as business seminars I took a decade earlier for leading high performance teams. Also, huge overlap with business courses in college. COURSE STRUCTURE, SONGS, MARCHING AND SKITS - For me, the most useful. Showed me how an "ideal" troop works. Not explicitly taught, but led to the most insight. I wish someone would have said "watch how we do it ... that's the ideal for how troops should work" TICKETS - Hmmmm... Very inconsistent scope and content. Smart students wrote their tickets carefully to get them done quickly. Others wrote college degree tickets. If you already volunteer in scouting with multiple roles, tickets are overwhelming. If your not volunteering in scouting with multiple roles, your probably not going to take woodbadge anyway. The tickets did have some good results for me. Others were useless. It was also frustrating that I had already just done several big scouting projects within a few months before the course. Couldn't count those as tickets though. Grrrrr..... So if your going to take Woodbadge, avoid volunteering to do anything else until after the course and avoid raising ideas and suggestions before the course. You might be able to use them as tickets. OVERALL - I can't recommend or warn away. Each person is different. Each person gets out what they want. I will say this. Woodbadge is definitely overhyped. It's just another training course, but better coordinated than others.

Seems a scouting prerequisite to be fascinated by fire and axes ... hopefully not at the same time ... both kids and adults. I've seen many new kids fascinated with matches and what burns. Usually, it's the first time someone trusted them with matches, fuel and such. Every year you can watch the new scouts disappear when older scouts tell them that bathroom hand cleaner burns. It usually just one or two camp outs though. The kid may have a fire issue. I don't know. I like your solution. Don't miss the personal boundary issue (taking your personal stuff) and that needs to be talked. A good solution would be to have him replace what was taken. Someone might have better solution. Just don't ignore that aspect.

boomerscout: Scout spirit is something that both leaders and scouts are supposed to have. It's about how you lead your personal life and how you treat others. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER deny advancement based on fundraising. Period. It's just way too small a part of scout spirit. And generally, scout spirit is something the scout and SM decide together thru discussion at an SMC ... except in extreme cases. ... ... I use this link all the time to answer how to apply advancement issues such as scout spirit, active and such. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/home/boyscouts/guideformeritbadgecounselors/rankadvancefaq.aspx ... ... John-in-KC: Good response. For our troop, other than rechartering cost, we spend less than $1200 a year, but we are a long established troop. The troop budget (including rechartering) is covered by $75 dues annually. The $1200 is for advancement, food, supplies and replacement equipment (two or three tents a year, maybe a lantern, a stove ...). Stove fuel is budgeted into event fee. For some troops, you are very right. For another troop in our home town, they have $100 dues AND need to sell $40,000 in popcorn each year to break even. Yes, more scouts. But the key difference is they cover **ALL** adult costs (car/truck fuel, camp fees, etc.) Where they have 50 kids at summer camp, they will also have 25+ adults at camp too, all paid for by the troop. On monthly weekend camps, they routinely have 20+ adults at the event ... all paid for by the scouts fundraising. ... I have a real problem with this, but it's not my troop. So you just smile and move on. Our troop is the other extreme. To avoid creating issues / questions like this, the SM, CC (me) and other leaders fully pay our way except ... troops pays our registration. We may increase camp event fee to cover fuel if it is more than 100 miles each way but few ask for reimbursement. Also, the troop pays for four adults at summer camp ($90 per person, $360 total cost). If more stay ""all"" week, then we split the four paid across those who stayed all week and the each person covers the difference. There is really no standard practice for troop finances, fundraising or scout accounts.

Wow. Sheilab haven't you been dealing with troop financial / leadership issues for a year or more? Not much fun to go through that stuff. Financially, BSA leaves alot to the CO and troop to work through. Personally (not reflecting BSA rules) ... ... I prefer ... All adults (leaders and parents, even the scoutmaster) to pay their own way. (except rechartering... troop budget pays for adult registration) ... I prefer ... Troop "dues" covers the troop annual budget include rechartering, COH food, supplies and equipment purchases. Our troop dues are $75 a year. Troops really don't need that much even. I bet we could get by with $50 but we want a safety net. ... I prefer ... Every campout is a "break even" event. (i.e. don't plan to earn or lose money for the troop) ... I prefer ... MORE IMPORTANT TO ME ... 100% of fundraiser profits going to scout accounts. If scouts want to pay their dues from scout account, that's fine. As a parent or as a scout, if I was to get little or none of the fundraiser profits, I'd soon stop selling. Especially, if I saw other families not sell. Scout supports troop by helping out physically and paying their fair share (dues) and covering their own costs (camping). More than that is covering for someone else who is not doing their fair share. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

moosetracker - You said it all earlier. "COR/IH of the CO will trump all". All the voting you talk about is an okay idea, but not BSA procedures or forms based. It's how your CO does it. It's fine. It builds consensus and support. But it's the CO/COR that is 100% responsible, not the committee. If the CO/COR wants to get rid of the CC without talking to anyone first or holding a vote, BSA is just fine with that.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Feeling very disillusioned right now. Just when I started respecting our neighbors from the north, eh.

For our council, yes. Our pack is on the 2nd year of Lion cubs. Last year we had eleven kindergarten Lions. Looks similar for this year. No real rank patch yet that I've seen.

"Scout is not a rank." Yeah, been in those discussions. Over the years, BSA has sometimes called it a rank. Othertimes a badge. Now, a badge. But it's worn on the uniform in the place where the BSA inspection sheet says "rank" patches go. Also, if you ask a scout what rank he is, he'll say he's a scout. He won't say "I have no rank." As far as I'm concerned, if they have no rank, the shirt pocket should be empty. But, that's me. Badge vs Rank ... It's a legalistic and useless point. I just don't care for the Bobcat "badge" because the kids are never really Bobcats. Plus we now need space for the Lion rank on the shirts. "Joining requirement" Not really. I've known kids who take months to get their Bobcat. Are they NOT supposed to come to meetings until they know the Cub Scout promise? Are they not really Cub Scouts until Bobcat is earned? For kids that join at the same time, it works fine. For kids that join off schedule, they often earn the Bobcat and rank badge at the same meeting. Not right, but it happens 50% of the time.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I agree in that the decision process can be whatever the CO/COR wants. And yes, the CO/COR can delegate the decision. But as far as BSA is concerned it's only the CO/COR (or the CC himself) who can remove a CC based on that delegated decision. Check the BSA registration forms: signature of the CC and signature of the COR. There is no place for the whole committee to sign.

The committee can't vote the CC out. The CC appoints the committee. It's a top down organization. Only the CO (executive) or COR can do this. No formal process. Once the CO or COR decides it needs to be done, it can be just done. A short talk or letter saying: "thank you but your services are not needed anymore. " No explaination even needed. But best to smooth the water as best you can. The decision process and communication is fully at the discretion of the CO and/or COR. It's their choice. It is best to immediately go to the scout office and have the CC removed from the unit membership roster. Until that is done, the CC administers the unit. It is best to have a new CC ready to step in.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Parents gets confused each year. Do I join a Bobcat den or a Tiger den ? It's confusing as it is not parallel with other ranks or even Boy Scouts. In Boy Scouts, "scout" is the initial rank and it is a real rank they stay at until they earn the next. In Cub scouts, the scouts have the rank matching their school grade and they are working to earn that rank. No scout is ever really a Bobcat (as in rank.) Bobcat is good because it gets the scout up in front of everyone fairly quickly. But it seems that could be done just by a welcoming ceremony or greeting. I'd rather see the bobcat requirements added to the start of each Cub Scout rank. Then, drop Bobcat.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Wow. "All commercial products must sell on their own merits, not the benefit received by the Boy Scouts." Two years ago I found the exact box of Trails End microwave popcorn at Walmart. The box was $2.50 (or cheaper). It was $15 thru scouts. The only difference was the scouts added a paper/cardboard wrapper to make it look right for fundraising. The box and inside product was the exact same product. When we sell wreaths, we can sell them for pretty much the same price stores sell them for. Makes it hard to argue for popcorn as the fundraiser.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

If it wasn't for the cost and effort (expensive shirt and multiple units), I've wanted to create an every day, out in public Class A (minimal decorations) and a court of honor Class A (knots and all the plumage). Just a thought.

I dead on agree with Tampa Turtle. "My sons were and always up for something during the summer. They will even volunteer for adult work days if it is scouting related... "Over the years my attitude has changed. I say offer a summer program and not worry who shows up. Make it something you enjoy anyway and celebrate those who come. Don't get a chip on your shoulder over who does not. Best cub meeting ever was only me and my co-leader and our sons. We almost cancelled but decided to go on. It was like a father-son play-date. My boy still remembers it 5 years later as one of his favorite times. "By doing an activity and going forward even with a few boys you send a clear message to those boys: you are important enough to do this with. "I think barriers to Summer Program is the parents." Especially, the "parent" issue. I think this is key. I've made a real effort to get to know the parents and get us each enjoying each others company. Whether it is cards or just discussing our lives with each other, it doesn't matter. If you can show the parents they matter and enjoy each other's company, they will bring their kids. There is a side benefit too. The kids are then more separated from the adults. The kids get to know each other better. It helps reduce the kids manipulating their parents thru their normal learned habits. This summer we had 62 people attend summer camp, 31 scouts and 31 parents, about 50% of the pack. The last few Cub Scout years have been great. I have four years left and I hope they continue to be as good.

A few scouting accounting practices that have saved us. - Incoming money ... Every deposit is recorded in a new Excel spread sheet listing check # (or cash), amount, purpose, scout credited and name on check if different family than the scout. The spreadsheet amount total matches the amount deposited. It has saved us many times when other records get screwed up. - Outgoing money ... Our bank statements are saved and shared as PDF files and include images of unit checks that were cashed. - We post our files in an online secure spot for sharing documents with other troop leaders. It has saved us when people change computers or computers crash. Everything else can then be recreated or put in Excel, Quicken, QuickBooks or other.

Just to clarify ... NSP has been used multiple ways in this discussion. - I fully believe in NSP (new scout PATROLS) in that scouts join at the same time are probably friends and are at the same level looking to have similar experiences and activities. To me that's a patrol, a set of friends working together to do things. The PL is a member of that patrol and learning leadership by helping his friends try to achieve their objectives. As the new scout patrol learns things, they naturally become just a normal patrol. - I do NOT believe in troop NSP (new scout PROGRAMS) that are formal documented ISO 9001 procedures. Maybe new scout programs run by summer camp staff, but even those I don't particularly like. Every patrol has things they can learn or do better. A new scout patrol just has alot of things that they need mentoring on. As such, the troop guide and/or an ASM pays special attention to them providing guideance and training as needed. I do wish the TERM "new scout patrol" would go away. They are just a patrol that needs a bit more guidance and experience. The troop guide (and SM/ASMs) should be there to help anyone who needs training or help. And the guide would know that a new set of scouts would need a bit more help. ... ... Multiple people in this discussion have helped me learn how to state what I've always thought but could never state cleanly. Troops with large documents, many procedures and many forms are boxing in the scouts and telling them exactly how to do it. It's just a way to hide an adult run troop. It's not teaching leadership. It's teaching process compliance. And, it's doing scouting how adults want to do scouting, not how scouts want to do scouting.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

desertrat77: Agreed. The BSA uniform reminds me of a tie. A tie is a style preferred 30+ years ago and few people wear anymore ... except when required.... Everyone removes ties as soon as possible. I'm sure this is related to why uniforming is such a challenge. I agree that uniforming should be a "method" in scouting. But, ... IMHO ... the purpose of being uniformed is to get the individual to identify as a member of a group; as something more than just a "self". I think the Canadian uniform does that just fine. Move all our flashy stuff off the uniform to the sash. ... ... Side note: My opinion is affected by my disappointment with the centenial unifoorm. I really looked forward to it. BUT ... The belt buckles fail. Scout pants wear out and tear within a year. (My old style pants are going on 8+ years and are in fine shape.) The new shirt stick-on letters and flag fall off. (old shirt was embroidered.) It's not the foreign manufacturing. BSA cut-corners on materials and design. I'm disillusioned as the price stayed very high. It's all marketing hype and little quality. I'm really glad the scout stores have a lifetime replacement guarantee. I've swapped out two belts and three pants. I've got a shirt to swap now too.

February... - Sounds like your Webelos could switch now if they really wanted. That's the common question: Switch now or wait for the whole den? - Almost none wait until end of 5th grade. That's just not how it's done these days. 99% transition at the B&G. It's easier as that's when Webelos from other packs join a troop and it's nice to join together. - February gives your Webelos a chance to get to know the troop before bigger summer camping events. - Don't worry about getting all you can out of Cub Scouts. Boy Scouts is a new adventure. The Arrow of Light is the only lasting Cub Scout award. ... ... It would be nice to learn more about this 50% B&G / 50% end-of-year crossover. That's definitely not what I've heard or seen or published by BSA.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Eagledad... LOL. Yeah, there are some pretty strong scouting opinions out there and the boards don't always stay polite. My apologies to 5yearscouter in advance. The link you posted earlier set off one of my hot buttons. The linked document is very well done and someone put many hours of love into it. BUT ... if I saw that document from a troop, I would run away. I think it all comes down to the type of troop and your view of scouting. I just don't believe a troop needs a large bureaucratic layer on top of the BSA program. Most everything in that document is already in the scout handbook. The troop guide is the troop guide because he's already advanced. So, he should be pretty familiar with the scout handbook. Let him use it as he offers advice and training to the new scouts. I think it also comes down to the view of a troop guide. The linked doc views the troop guide as "RUNNING" the new scout program like a teacher runs a class room. Planning worksheets. Schedule worksheets. Detailed session plans. Flag quiz. Progress charts. I don't view it that way. In our troop, the troop guide is more like a friendly older brother who offers advice and shows the new scouts how to do things. He doesn't run their advancement and he doesn't run a Brownsea program. I just don't think the new scout program needs to be that formal or planned. Encourage? Yes. Check progress? Yes. Provide opportunities? Yes. Run a formal new scout program? No. One of my sons was in a troop like that. It was too much like school and too little fun. IMHO, documents like that reflect adult(s) who wants to inject more control than reflecting a real problem. (I'm for keeping new scouts together by the way. No of this breaking them up into different patrols. That's a different topic though.)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I felt like I was speaking heresy saying I liked the Canadian uniform. Glad I'm not the only one.

I like their scout uniform. Where do they display their advancments?

You don't need to write up anything special or design a new scout program. Refer to the Boy Scout handbook and the Scoutmaster handbook. What's written there is what you do. Other than having a troop guide for advice and guidance during the first 3 to 6 months, they are just like any other patrol. Just remember they choose a patrol leader and are not lead by the troop guide. They may also get a bit of special attention from the scoutmaster to keep them focused on basic skills / initial advancement. But their program is learning the skills to camp and have adventures in scouting. Just so happens those skills are organized as Tenderfoot, 2nd class and 1st class. I've been in troops with formal document new scout patrol agendas / programs. It get stale quick. Have them always bring the Boy Scout handbook. T-2-1 is their patrol program. Let them choose and control the rest.

I've generally thought of myself as middle of the road. I've voted for both parties depending on the candidate. But with the debt discussions, I tend to agree with the cutting side ... if it is possible. I had a hard time trying to decide who is right. But here's some stats from the IRS... I don't have the exact numbers with me right now, but I think I'm pretty close from what I remember. - USA has 311 million people. Roughly 190 million working age. 140 million tax returns. - Of the 140 million tax returns, the top 1% of returns pays 27.6% of the taxes; top 5% pays 57% (might be higher). Top 10% pays almost 70%. Bottom 36% (around 50 million tax returns) have no tax liability. Bottom 25% ... of tax returns ... around 35 million tax returns ... get more money back from the IRS than was paid in. - Debt is approx 14 trillion. Saying it's 45 thousand dollars of debt per person is meaningless when 36% don't contribute to paying back the debt and 25% pull money out thru their tax "return". If you correct for the percent they pay, someone in the top 1% of tax returns has a debt liability of $2,500,000. Someone in the top 5% has a liability of $1,500,000.