fred8033

By the way "Back in 1966...". Ummm... I meant "Back in 1996". I'm old, but not that old.

What people forget is that the "payroll taxes" were essentially designed as "insurance" premiums. Social security was "Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance". Payroll taxes are "FICA" which is "Federal Insurance...". ... So what is it? INSURANCE ... If you believe it's insurance, then ... If the insurance is underfunded, you raise the premium pretty much on everyone. GENERAL BENEFIT ... Then everyone should get the same monthly S.S. payment whether you paid payroll taxes on $110k of income or $25k of income. But then you have other major major economic issues to

Jay - Can you "scan" that treatise in for us?

The power point presentation actually reminds me a lot of my learning as I learned about advancement, but I agree that it is just too long. It is better suited as the outline for a 30 page paper. Here's a wild suggestion. How about cutting it down to about 10 to 12 slide. One slide for each sub-section of section 8 (BORs) in the Guide To Advancement. For the handout, give them a printed copy of section 8 of the GTA. Don't bother covering the ugly stuff (over 18, disputed BOR, appeals, ...) http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Don't bother trying to create yet another

dlearyous wrote: "Why does it state that a Scout shall not be responsible for requesting that a board take place?" I think this comes from both the Boy Scout Handbook and also Guide To Advancement section 8.0.0.2. "When he believes he has completed all the requirements, including a Scoutmaster conference, it is up to the unit leader and committee to assure a board of review is held. There might be some leeway for interpretation, but the next GTA sentence is: "Scoutmasters, for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request one, or to defer him, or to ask him to perform b

Basementdweller - We just charge everyone the same and believe it all washes out to be fair in the end. For us, we decided that keeping it simple was more fair. But that's our pack and not a general rule. ... The trouble with dues is that there's never really a balance. It's not a scout account. It goes into a general fund to be used to cover pack expenses. If other packs share the dues of people who transfer out of their pack, it's only through their good graces. There is no obligation.

I often get confused as to which comes first. OA as an honor society or OA as a brotherhood of cheerful service. It's clear OA is more about ceremonials then activities. But is that bad? - How about an OA only event at summer camp? Say the normal bed time is 10pm. At that time, OA members silently leave camp and head to a special issolated camp fire program only for them. Of course with treats, fun and other perks to make it special.

"silent member" ... Great! That's an excellent way to communicate a core aspect of adult leadership.

Sasha - Good luck. These situations are never fun. ... Side discussion... twocubdad wrote: "When I was pack CC we had a Webelos II den of about four boys which refuesd to pay pack dues. The DL felt since they had already paid the BSA dues they didn't need to pay for the six or seven months until crossover (she was a bit wacko, never really understood what her issue was.) " We've had those too. We usually resolved it by discussing pack expenses. The Webelos years are very expensive to the pack. My 1st pack only charged 50% for the 2nd Webelos year because it was

Are your dues relatively small? Less then $150. Is your pack at all financially healthy? If so, make the problem go away. It's fighting a losing battle, distracting and wasting time over what is probably a minor amount of money. The key is that trying to fairly resolve the situation just promotes hard feelings and prolongs a really bad situation. Wave their dues for the year and swallow the cost. Then, you can focus on the fun of scouting. At least it sounds like the council is willing to register them not at your cost. That's great. My answer depends on the health of your

basementweller - Nice post. I think it works the same way at the district level.

"one person cannot or will not change the Good old boys club or status quo. " That's just not my experience. Scouters are volunteers and welcome new volunteers to keep the program going. My experience is district/council has plenty of holes to fill and are always looking for people to help, new energy, new enthusiasm and fresh ideas. A few committees like advancement tend to want to know the people pretty well first before welcoming volunteers. But even there, they are always looking for good volunteers to help. The accused "Good old boys clubs" or "political problems" tend t

I see well over a hundred new members at the ordeal weekend. They do four ceremonies split between two fire rings. Our troop gets two to five scouts elected and through the ordeal each year. Our troop passes on the information from OA and OA members are also contacted directly by their chapter. I'm just not sure how much more is expected. I should mention our council does have a OA led youth training camp out each spring. It's like a university of scouting for youth, but on a camp out. Great event and great for OA activities. I like the idea of the OA running the camporee. In

I'm not arguing against OA at all. I like OA. I think it's a good idea. I'm just always sad that ... from what I see ... it's promise does not match the reality. But I am mostly on the outside and can only speak to the experience of scouts from our unit. The only significant involvement I see is the scout going through the ordeal. Then, mostly nothing, even for the OA reps. ... Side note ... we've had many scouts do high adventures (troop and council contingents) and I can't think of a single one in the last ten years that took advantage of OA service opportunities for a high a

.... ummmm .... but .... wait .... dang .... nothing. .... Nope. ... Still nothing (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I did consider the definition of "diatribe". I'm absolutely fine with all three of the contexts below. You should look up the definition and consider the other persons perspective before suggesting there is an issue with a term. Diatribe 1 archaic : a prolonged discourse 2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing 3 : ironic or satirical criticism Scoutmasters aren't a god. Rarely do they need to pass judgement and very rarely do they ever need to say no to something that's not a safety issue. The scout's on his 2nd pass looking to solve an obstacle. The most im

qwazse: "The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge." LOL. We have a scout in that exact situation in our troop right now. I have no issue with it. If it's what the scout values, I'll support him. It's still up to him to follow through on his requirements. It's his vision and my job as his leader to support him and not to look for reasons to say no. It's no different than if

Beavah - Method goals method goals method goals. Thanks for the lecturing diatribe and for being the fountain of all wisdom and for feeling responsible to post it over and over again. But the point is the scout is at the end of his journey as a scout and is asking for help to achieve something he has now decided he values for what ever reason. Though not required to help, any good scoutmaster should. This has nothing to do with the perceived value of other ranks or the advancement path of other scouts or even a comparative analysis of the application of goals and methods. This h

emb01 replied to my comment: "But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA." .... "Really?" Sorry as much as I like and support OA, it just seems that way to me. Administrative - Ordeal weekend ... Huge event just for our chapter with hundreds and hundreds of attendees Administrative - Annual banquet ... Our chapter sends ten or so... I guess ... never attended Administrative - Conclave / conferences (sectional or national) ... Maybe a few go from the whole chapter Activity - camp service weekends

Now I'm mostly an outsider as I'm pretty much a once a year OA brotherhood member who likes being an adult laundry guy at the ordeal weekends. This might be a side discussion point, but when scouters don't support OA might be because they just don't see that much to it. Our biggest OA events are ordeal weekends. Our chapter is huge with about 200(??) new members for the last few years. But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA. I bet it's just 10 to 20 members our of the chapter that are active. And that

Beavah - The facts are as stated in the column. Of course if different facts, then there's a different conclusion. Your arguments of ignorance and other red herring arguments just trigger distracting diatribes that don't help anyone. And be careful in your facts too, you don't know his troop leaders ran the program for seven years or that this kid was in the troop all those years or that the leaders contributed to the scout wanting to serve his country. That's not in the facts and now your jumping to conclusions. What's in the facts is that the scout is reaching out for help to an A

Beavah, your over zealous adult leader tough love speech is misplaced. It's so thick that my boots got stuck. The fact is a scout started asking for help in his rank advancement well in advance of a requirement deadline and was told tough luck. He's willing to do the work and there's options available. IMHO, that's enough to help the scout. Work with the SPL to find a meaningful POR and let him do the work and complete his rank requirements and earn his rank. Compounding it is his entering the military. IMHO, that's enough penance to correct for almost any other misdeeds. An

SR540Beaver: "My question is why all of the guys who were scouts as kids aren't coming back to give back now?" IMHO, that's a million dollar question without a single simple answer. I'd hope that the excuse of a busy life is the main reason for most, but I doubt it's that simple. Too many parents are stepping up in their kid's lives. The related question I have is "Why do former scouts not register their kids for scouts?

Beavah wrote: "Everyone needs to go home and write "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method and not a Goal" a hundred times." No one's saying anything different, eh! The problem is it's hardly a useful method when the response is "tough luck kid". The scout's got the time and willing to do the work. It's still up to the scout to earn the rank. It just takes a slight bit of flexibility from the troop. It's not that much to ask. Beavah before you reply, why don't you write a hundred times on the wall: "Compassion is the basis of morality" or "Orthodoxy without compassion is

"By refusing to allow this Scout to hold a POR your Troop leadership IS indeed making the decision to deny this Scout his Eagle award. " I fully agree. By helping the scout find a meaningful POR, that puts the advancement control in his hands and it's up to him to earn his Eagle.