Is the real patrol method dead?

[Armymutt]

I've been reading the 1941 Handbook for Scoutmasters and it reminded me of something I read as a kid in my first Boy Scout Handbook, 9th edition.  To make sure I wasn't misremembering, I pulled it off the shelf and on page 17, it discusses Patrol Hikes and Camps.  It says "Good patrols go overnight camping by themselves."  The 10th edition dilutes the encouragement and makes it more of a possibility.  By the 12th edition, the notion of a Patrol doing something without the rest of the troop isn't even an idea.  Just to make sure it wasn't a Green Bar Bill anomaly, I went back to the 7th edition and found a similar idea as the 9th.  Even as a youth, I always thought it would be fun to have a patrol campout, but we were pretty limited due to transportation.  Even the SA website says, "Patrol Activities - A Scout patrol may camp or hike with other patrols in the unit."  This sounds suspiciously like "Only troop camping is allowed", which is a bit like Cub Scouts, with the exception of the Webelos and AOL dens.  Even the G2SS has eliminated any mention of patrol outings.  

If a troop is supposed to be made up of patrols and not split into patrols, then shouldn't the focus be on patrol-level activities?

[RememberSchiff]

Depends on the SM and availability of  trained adult leaders. Our senior patrol still plans and execute 1 or 2 outdoor patrol activities a year. 

Back in my day, patrols hiked locally without adults  provided their SM approved.  I would say even then, councils did not recognize patrols.  Council events and camps required troop registration even the patrol competition Klondike Derby required troop registration. 

IMHO, skilled, experienced patrols should be allowed to trek Philmont without adults. As an alternative to an Eagle service project,  I favor allowing Eagle Scout candidates to plan and lead a patrol trek without adults in attendance or a "project handbook". 

We once trained scouts to reach a level (First Class) of outdoor competency such that they could "scout run" themselves without adults present. 

My $0.02,

[skeptic]

Until we fix the legal system in the United States, as if that is even likely, much of what made Scouting so beneficial to youth growth into citizenship and focused lives has become basically impossible.  The swarms of black birds continue to circle overhead, not just over Scouting, but over anything that could lead to public outrage and legal settlements that make the lawyers rich, and incrementally destroy the positive elements of society.

[DuctTape]

Yes, focus should be on patrol activities. As far as adults, transportation etc... the numbers still work. 2 cars to transport a patrol is 2 adults. 

I firmly believe the slow methodical demise of the patrol method is the demise of scouting to truly achieve its aims. It is within the patrol, as a functional member where the lessons which develop the scouts character are born, bred and raised. 

[MattR]

@Armymutt, I certainly tried to get patrols to do their own thing. We had 60 some scouts (6 to 8 patrols) and I pushed for meetings on their own, service projects on their own and activities on campouts by patrol. If there was a hike then the patrols could hike on their own, if they could prove to me they were prepared. I refused to mix and match patrols unless there were less than 4 scouts in a patrol and that's what they wanted (they usually didn't). The scouts understood the point of all of this. The adults were the problem. They constantly said it was more efficient to have everyone do the same thing. The only thing they didn't fight was to let the patrols do on their own was cooking. Within a year after I stepped down cooking was the only thing they did on their own. They started mixing patrols for each campout. By now there is only one patrol on a campout anyway and on some campouts the adults and scouts cook together.

If I were a better leader I could have convinced the adults that efficiency doesn't teach leadership. Rather, dealing with problems teaches leadership. But I was never very good at teaching the adults. I tried. 

 

[qwazse]

22 hours ago, MattR said:

@Armymutt… If I were a better leader I could have convinced the adults that efficiency doesn't teach leadership. Rather, dealing with problems teaches leadership. But I was never very good at teaching the adults. I tried. 

You were probably quite good at it, but it wasn’t your job. That’s the job of a UC or DE.

And National has not adopted a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience: hiking and camping independently with your mates.

[fred8033]

#1  Absolutely agree with @skeptic that the legal system blocks youth-only patrol hiking / camping.   Scouts might still be able to patrol camping with legitimate registered / trained adult supervision.  It's a troop activity with a selection of patrols equal to one patrol.  Beyond that, it's about liability.

#2 ... Question ... Can patrols still do non-camping activities without adult supervision?  Go to the movies?  Bowl?  Socialize?  Go to a state fair?  I've been out for a few years now, but we always encouraged patrols to have a "patrol" activities and it was never overseen / reviewed by troop leadership.  

#3 ...  Scouting still provides a huge benefit.  Today's youth are couch surfers with organized activities.  Youth are not comfortable roughing it out in nature and don't know how to handle quiet time.  Scouting can fill a huge gap.  It might not be the leadership training of the past.  Perhaps, scouting is needed now to fill the gap of building confidence, stretching comfort zones and teaching skills by surviving the hardship of living in nature.

Edited Monday at 02:03 PM by fred8033

[Tron]

There are references to patrol activities in modern documentation but it is very limited. The focus on leadership over being able to do things for oneself is what is really killing the patrol method. The original purpose state of which BSA is chartered by congress provides no mention of "leadership" training. The program is so overfocused on leadership training, positions of responsibility, and the eagle project that any notion of self-reliance is gone; scoutcraft is the next thing "leadership" will kill. 

The purpose statement of the BSA from the national charter:

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, Tron said:

There are references to patrol activities in modern documentation but it is very limited. The focus on leadership over being able to do things for oneself is what is really killing the patrol method. The original purpose state of which BSA is chartered by congress provides no mention of "leadership" training. The program is so overfocused on leadership training, 

Yep. I'm convinced that those at National haven't a clue how to develop young people into ethical and moral decision makers. Has DEI killed the Boy Scouts? Leadership development in scouting is passive form of learning. Good leaders make good role models for good leadership.

The folks at National are reacting the same as the Girls Scouts national leaders when they lost the understanding of how to build character. Like the BSA, they started promising leadership as a virtue of the program. They believe that giving a scout a chance to lead makes them a leader. 

Ironically, I believe that the GSUSA has a better chance of giving a patrol method program now because they don't have boys to dilute their program to make everyone happy. But, like BSA National, they don't know how to implement it.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

In 1989 when aged based patrols became the recommendation instead of Traditional, mixed aged patrols, that was the beginning of fall of the Patrol Method.

In 2012, when they no longer allowed patrols to camp on their own without adult supervision,  that furthered the fall.

In 2018 when they no longer allowed patrols to have any day activities, i.e. patrol meetings, hikes, camp shopping etc, unless 2 registered adults over the age of 21, that nailed the coffin shut IMHO.

[Tron]

19 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

In 1989 when aged based patrols became the recommendation instead of Traditional, mixed aged patrols, that was the beginning of fall of the Patrol Method.

In 2012, when they no longer allowed patrols to camp on their own without adult supervision,  that furthered the fall.

In 2018 when they no longer allowed patrols to have any day activities, i.e. patrol meetings, hikes, camp shopping etc, unless 2 registered adults over the age of 21, that nailed the coffin shut IMHO.

I've volunteered with troops running all sorts of patrol structures and I least like the fully mixed age patrols at this point. They always seem to devolve into a process where the patrol leaders and troop leadership regardless of ability or likeability become the troop elected leadership and the younger scouts become second class citizens who have to ride the back bench and do their time regardless of capability.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

I've volunteered with troops running all sorts of patrol structures and I least like the fully mixed age patrols at this point. They always seem to devolve into a process where the patrol leaders and troop leadership regardless of ability or likeability become the troop elected leadership and the younger scouts become second class citizens who have to ride the back bench and do their time regardless of capability.

This occurs in units where the youth leaders are not contributing to unit performance. Most of the time the adults are assisting the leadership to the point that they are preventing bad decisions from interfering the activities. 

Ambitious Scouts will rise up into leadership positions in units where the scouts are held accountable for program performance.

[DuctTape]

34 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

This occurs in units where the youth leaders are not contributing to unit performance. Most of the time the adults are assisting the leadership to the point that they are preventing bad decisions from interfering the activities. 

Ambitious Scouts will rise up into leadership positions in units where the scouts are held accountable for program performance.

And also where SMs abdicate their responsibility to have regular SM conferences with the PLs and SPL to help them grow as servant leaders.

A high quality SM or ASM knows how to listen, ask questions to help the leaders reflect on their patrol decisions.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

I've volunteered with troops running all sorts of patrol structures and I least like the fully mixed age patrols at this point. They always seem to devolve into a process where the patrol leaders and troop leadership regardless of ability or likeability become the troop elected leadership and the younger scouts become second class citizens who have to ride the back bench and do their time regardless of capability.

As I have mentioned, I have been around NSPs since they were an experiment. Every time the NSP has been tried with a troop I was involved in, it either exhausted the TG, or it turned into Webelos 3 with adults interfering. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. (major emphasis).  And every single troop has gone to Traditional Patrols. Including the troop that had one NSP that could keep up with the older Scouts because the initial group began the transition in 4th grade. That was the closest to a successful NSP. The problem came when the other pack crossed over their Scouts, and they were not ready at all. They did not focus on transition until 1 month before AOL and Cross Over ceremonies. 

[Armymutt]

Interesting turn of events tonight.  Our lone Eagle Scout who is actually actively showing up AND participating came up to myself and the acting SM and presented his thoughts on the troop.  He said that he would dissolve the patrols as they are right now and reform them, integrating Scouts of all ages.  He sees that what we have isn't working because there is no one in the patrol to teach the younger Scouts anything.  As he was talking, I started laughing internally.  I pulled up a text thread where I shared an image from the 1941 Handbook for Scoutmasters that described how to do exactly what he proposed.  I think by our next elections in October, the troop will have a different look and feel.  My plan is to use the older Scouts who are not in PL roles as Troop Guides, responsible for helping the PLs ensure their Scouts are advancing and gaining the Scout skills they need to be able to act independently, within the G2SS.  Hopefully, that will motivate them to start leveraging the technology they have available to hold patrol planning meetings outside of troop meetings and reduce the amount of planning taking place at troop meetings.