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Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese


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We're going to split the ch11.x thread in 2. The original will be kept as it was intended, for the legal aspects of the case and everything else will go here. In a nutshell, if the judge is dealing wi

@Gilwell_1919 I want to respond to this, but in the proper thread, which is this one. Let's be clear what Kosnoff has said. 1) He had stated that scouting should continue. He's repeated th

No one here, except members who are claimants, have any part of deciding anything in this bankruptcy. Let's drop the personal criticism of others who express in a scoutlike way their differing op

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15 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

That is only $17 per person per weekend....sounds like a deal.

I meant overall for the entire camp...if you jack up the prices 150%, you can expect utilization to fall...

(And it's only $17 a head if you have 12...)

Our camp did the same thing several years ago...in addition to putting in electric and gas meters on each facility.  You pay a rental fee up front, and an electricity and gas usage bill at the end based on the readings (with a little extra tacked on)

Now, do you have any idea what it costs to purchase and install power and gas meters on 8 buildings?  What do you think the payback time on that cost is?  SMH

So, instead, most units will go to one of many other Scout camps within a two hour drive to get away from such nonsense, or, they primitive camp at the county park across the river at $1 per person for the weekend.

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16 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Now, do you have any idea what it costs to purchase and install power and gas meters on 8 buildings?  What do you think the payback time on that cost is?  SMH

You would have to see the actual costs and the money saved.  If it was a 10 year payback I would think that was reasonable.  With the rising cost of gas and electricity and if it is in a cold weather climate it could have been a smart move.

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3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

That is only $17 per person per weekend....sounds like a deal.

I am never in favor of price increases but for point of comparison a 12 person cabin at one of our nearby state parks would be $280 for a weekend so $200 doesn't seem crazy. And no scout discounts despite a history of service projects... 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

All the ups and downs in this case have made for exciting reading at times. My feeling is that BSA will survive bankruptcy with little cash, very limited property and low membership only to fail a few years down the road.

There are so many factors working against them.

1) High fees

2) Loss of CO

3)Society changing.

4)Large paid staff overhead.

5)Negative media PR

6)Future abuse cases-this is a big one in my opinion as there will still be cases but hopefully few.

7)Sexual abuse law changes-in favor of victims. 

8)Abilty to find enough leaders.

9)Loss of large financial donations

10) Camp losses will enrage camp supporters who will leave the organization. 

11)Infighting within councils, this is often overlooked but there are always disgruntled leaders and volunteers with the direction scouting is taking.

12) Loss of most LC endowments. Many councils are surviving off interest and investment earnings. 

There are many more things working against the BSA and it would be a surprise if they survive long term.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

All the ups and downs in this case have made for exciting reading at times. My feeling is that BSA will survive bankruptcy with little cash, very limited property and low membership only to fail a few years down the road.

There are so many factors working against them.

1) High fees

2) Loss of CO

3)Society changing.

4)Large paid staff overhead.

5)Negative media PR

6)Future abuse cases-this is a big one in my opinion as there will still be cases but hopefully few.

7)Sexual abuse law changes-in favor of victims. 

8)Abilty to find enough leaders.

9)Loss of large financial donations

10) Camp losses will enrage camp supporters who will leave the organization. 

11)Infighting within councils, this is often overlooked but there are always disgruntled leaders and volunteers with the direction scouting is taking.

12) Loss of most LC endowments. Many councils are surviving off interest and investment earnings. 

There are many more things working against the BSA and it would be a surprise if they survive long term.

 

 

Yes, you are very likely correct.

My gut says another likely scenario is that the bankruptcy fails due to negative votes of claimants, judge not ordering a cramdown, and existing lawsuits (currently on hold) proceeding (with more likely to be filed) after the Chapter 11 proceedings are abandoned.  Chapter 7 is definitely still a contender, sooner rather than later.  Two to three years maybe...

If Chapter 7, then what for the 200+ separate corporate council entities?  Corporations without a united identity...will a coalition of a few powerful band together to form a more perfect union? Yhat will be a confusing mess for the years following Ch 7.

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Define “failure”.

Guys like me will still take boys camping. There is a body of literature that will enable us to do so well into the future.

There are people/entities who will let us camp on their land.

We will rely on our state’s mandatory background checks, maybe.

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21 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Define “failure”.

Guys like me will still take boys camping. There is a body of literature that will enable us to do so well into the future.

There are people/entities who will let us camp on their land.

We will rely on our state’s mandatory background checks, maybe.

Failure is Scouts BSA not surviving.  A guy taking a group of kids camping is a success is my opinion.  That is one of the founding BSA principles. 

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2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

First of all, I moved this sub thread to the appropriate thread.

Second, to answer your question, I'm not sure our opinions matter at this point. What will happen will happen. As an aside, I'm almost done reading War and Peace, which takes place in Russia during Napolean's invasions, and a common theme is large organizations have a mind of their own irrespective of what most leaders wish. 

So, as I watch the BSA, my guess is that while everyone will blame the bankruptcy and covid on whatever bad luck happens, it most likely stems from events and decisions made many decades ago. Case in point, back in the 40s and 50s there was Hillcourt and an organization that ran the BSA. They weren't on the same page. They never were. But Hillcourt was a force in that he wrote all the manuals that everyone used. It didn't matter what the rest of the organization did; Bad hiring; Inbred; Focused on fundraising. That organization created a monster of bad leadership that was kept at bay by Hillcourt's persona. But then he retired and the monster took over. While Hillcourt was good at writing and connecting to scouts, he couldn't change national. Furthermore, the 60s, millennial, and all the other cultural excuses people like to blame also didn't change much.

And the bankruptcy and covid aren't going to change much of anything either. A new Hillcourt could turn things around but the BSA can't let that happen. This is an organization that has a mind of its own. Irrespective of what any one wants, the organization will keep bringing in the likes of Mosby.

Sorry for sounding grim.

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4 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

All the ups and downs in this case have made for exciting reading at times. My feeling is that BSA will survive bankruptcy with little cash, very limited property and low membership only to fail a few years down the road.

I think the failure down the road is a very real possibility. I think that failure will happen because the BSA will not stay relevant to young kids interests which will cause more decline in membership.  

It will not be the cost of membership (parents pay thousands for their kid's other interests) but what children's expectations are.  They are looking for more instant gratification, they are looking for more online interactions and I do not see BSA as presently structured meeting their needs.  As the current teen population who are very much into online gaming etc. move into adulthood they will see less benefit for their children to know how to start a campfire without matches etc.  I already have coworkers who are in their twenties telling me how they spend time with their 8 and 9 year olds gaming with them.  

 

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I trained Race Horses for over a decade.  Once a storied sport, complete with celebrities and grand celebrations of well-dressed enthusiasts, it was transformed into a closed society where homeless and jobless sought shelter and minimal wages.  Over 20 years, the entire industry consolidated into few regional tracks that are largely populated by the aged, still attached by a tether to their younger days, with little participation from younger generations.  And the gambling that drove it didn't miss a beat in going online, apps, casinos and so on.  Simply stated, life changes.

And so it is with scouts.  When I was a boy, it seems like the cool kids were scouting.  These days, they are doing other things, some I understand and others I don't.  Some are healthy and some are not.  But life changes.  And scouting has the additional baggage of a history of abuse, which is front and center now.  I saw a post on fb this week about a troop having had its equipment trailer stolen.  The key post was something about having one less opportunity for the perverts to abuse the boys.  Seems cold, but not so unrealistic.  My wife and I still explore, but not as a part of an organized group.  If I were still raising children, I would still spend time with them and would still explore, but would not entrust them to BSA or any other group where I could not be there for them.  I do not see BSA surviving as in the past, though it may take time for the candle to completely wear out.  And don't get me started on the Catholic church.  Suffice it to say this is Sunday morning and I am not in the 3rd pew.

 

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Question for Scouters: If you made a list of the top 5 things National needs to do to implement transformational change, what would be on it? No need to include elements of YPT. I would like to see if there is significant concurrence among you. From the list I’ve made, there are several elements that have been repeated many times by various of you over the 27 years I’ve been lurking. Thanks.

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