Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[Eagle1993]

Just now, CynicalScouter said:

Good bets. I will never fathom people who defend the BSA (and LCs) at all costs, no matter what.

I do not believe that is a fair comment.  While I believe some LCs can definitely afford more, there is clearly the FCR & Coalition who believe the deal is appropriate.  So, I don't think this is someone defending the BSA/LCs at all costs.

We can disagree on the amount, but this is not someone asking for a $0 settlement.  It is an offer.  If there is anger by claimants, I would direct it more at the coalition lawyers and FCR. 

Again, I am one who believes many LCs could (and probably should) pay more to get out of this bankruptcy alive.  I think the vote could fail and is likely not a 90%+ slam dunk.   That said, I will continue to say there are legitimate arguments to defend this deal that is not from a defend BSA at all costs stance.

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

or it requires a level of financial restitution that is not achievable because that level of assets does not exist.

Here is a hint: when the majority of LCs have to pay out less than 14% of current assets to get out from underneath millions upon millions in liability? That isn’t fair.

[johnsch322]

4 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I am not sure what the reasoning behind the question is, so I cannot expound other than to say I don't know.

I actually thought the question was straight forward.  My opinion that scouters within an LC would be better off if the LC gave up a greater share of their assets now than face the uncertainty of the outcome of the LC becoming bankrupt.

[MattR]

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Cry me a river

This is not helping.

23 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Let us come and talk to them and their parents about our Scouting “experience” and see how they react. I’ve been told that we, together, comprise the

Done right, this would be good. My dad was invited to a school in Germany where he grew up to talk to kids about what he lived through. 

In all honesty, it did him at least as much good as the students.

[johnsch322]

11 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

We can disagree on the amount, but this is not someone asking for a $0 settlement.  It is an offer.  If there is anger by claimants, I would direct it more at the coalition lawyers and FCR. 

Again, I am one who believes many LCs could (and probably should) pay more to get out of this bankruptcy alive.  I think the vote could fail and is likely not a 90%+ slam dunk.   

The problem with a low ball offer in this situation is the ramifications of what that might mean if it is not accepted.  

I would like to add this is not in the arena of a car dealership where you can offer 5K for 20K car.  The dealer will just tell you to get lost and that is the end of it.  Here the low ball will not get rid of the problem.

Edited October 7, 2021 by johnsch322

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

The problem with a low ball offer in this situation is the ramifications of what that might mean if it is accepted.  

See Hartford deal, Supra.

If (big if) if the Hartford deal is OKed Century and the smaller insurance companies have NO reason to come in a penny higher per claim in any future settlement talks.

Edited October 7, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[johnsch322]

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

See Hartford deal, Supra.

If (big if) if the Hartford deal is OKed Century and the smaller insurance companies have NO reason to come in a penny higher per claim in any future settlement talks.

I understand what you are saying but I meant to say if not accepted.  

[HelpfulTracks]

22 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And what is the exchange rate? 

How many Cub Scout campouts absolve BSA from its civil liability for a Tier 1 child sexual abuse, hmmm?

BSA cannot and should not use today’s children as human shields for its corporate negligence in how it handled child sexual abuse.

 

Well, I am not BSA, and I am not trying to absolve the organization of anything.

But since you want to use a balance sheet of exchange rates, there is plenty of good that has positively effected lives. 

• I was headed down a bad path with the people I was hanging out with in the neighborhood. After getting into trouble my dad put me in Scouting, it took a while but it helped straighten me out.
• I lost both parents as a teen, my mom early in my Scouting career. The better part of a year is just blank, I remember almost nothing from that time. I quit everything, sports, clubs, even friends, my grades plummeted. About all I can remembers are some campouts. My family tells me the only thing I reacted to was going on scouting campouts. 
• When I found out my father was sick and dying Scouting was something that played a huge roll in our relationship over the last months of his life.
• What about a close friend from my youth, who was able to save his father because he learned CPR in scouts. 
• Another was able to jump in and save his sister from drowning, because he learned to swim in scouts, even though he had previously been deathly afraid of water. 
• How about a scout that lost both parents in a car wreck. Scouts were his largest support group, so much so his grandparents who were becoming his guardians, moved to him rather than making him move miles away to them. 
• What about all the great opportunities my son has had that he would not have had without scouting.

Those are not human shields, those are lives changed in a positive way by Scouting. I understand that this is not your experience with scouting. But I have heard similar stories as mine from other Scouters. This is why Scouters like me want to make sure Scouting survives, while also want to see something done for victims, even if we know whatever is done, cannot make things right. 

For me it has never been do we save scouting OR do we help victims, it has always been both. 

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Done right, this would be good. My dad was invited to a school in Germany where he grew up to talk to kids about what he lived through. 

In all honesty, it did him at least as much good as the students.

Exactly. That’s very powerful and what an example. I know I can fall prey to my own smart mouth, but I did and do mean that sincerely. If the Doug Kennedy of today had appeared in June of 1972 to talk with the soon to be 11 year old me a month out from my his first Summer Camp, what an incalculable difference that could have made in my life. I don’t dare even think about it. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by ThenNow

[vol_scouter]

@HelpfulTracks  Well said.  There are many times more stories such as yours for every victim.

[gpurlee]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

To the moderators:

It seems to me that the views on this thread are so vastly divergent and, for many, the emotions are some what raw so that this will devolve into arguments.  It seems to me that fair is largely determined by one's starting point.

 

As Eagle1993 stated in an earlier post:

(1) We try to watch the discussions closely.

(2) We recognize that this is a very emotional topic that many will never agree upon. And value the diversity of information and opinion represented on this forum.

(3) We ask that the conversations remain respectful. And for the most part, they do.  Thank you all for that.

Edited October 7, 2021 by gpurlee

[HelpfulTracks]

54 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I actually thought the question was straight forward.  My opinion that scouters within an LC would be better off if the LC gave up a greater share of their assets now than face the uncertainty of the outcome of the LC becoming bankrupt.

It was not clear, but now I see. 

Have seen what my council has done (sold off a camp and used a significant sum of free cash), I am not sure that Chapter 11 would have much more effect, beyond legal fees. 

If we are talking Chapter 7, then certainly they would be better off, but I am not convinced that would be the path. 

[ThenNow]

8 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

  There are many times more stories such as yours for every victim.

I’m sorry, and I respect you, but why do we have to say things like that? I, for one, have had this duel for many pages back in the day. It is not fair to create that juxtaposition and say “all this good outweighs this little bit of bad.” It is not a reasonable, moral, ethical or compassionate calculus. Please don’t do that. I can tell you from this one victim, it feels very demeaning and invalidating. It just does. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by ThenNow

[Muttsy]

1 hour ago, HelpfulTracks said:

 

2 hours ago, Muttsy said:

I don’t much care what happens to BSA. It is 100% responsible for its predicament. 

I disagree. BSA's mistakes, in-action, and deliberate actions, absolutely have responsibility in this predicament, but are the actual abuser not responsible for some of the predicament?

 

You haven’t bothered to study the history. This was a civil conspiracy to conceal the sexual abuse of children that continued for a century.  It was child endangerment on an epic scale. The pedophiles are the wild beasts with uncontrollable obsessions. What generations of executives did in keeping it secret from scouts and the public is indefensible. 

[vol_scouter]

22 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I’m sorry, and I respect you, but why do we have to say things like that? I, for one, have had this duel for many pages back in the day. It is not fair to create that juxtaposition and say “all this good outweighs this little bit of bad.” It is not a reasonable, moral, ethical or compassionate calculus. Please don’t do that. I can tell you from this one victim, it feels very demeaning and invalidating. It just does. 

@ThenNow  My sincere apology for any discomfort as it was not meant to do so.  It was certainly not to be demeaning or invalidating.  It is time for me to exit this discussion and I will endeavor to do so.