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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

134 sets of attorneys listed as "Counsel to"

Yup. I watch the payment requests appear on the docket like clockwork. 

I know both can be flawed, ill-motivated and driven by sweeping 'cattle drive' campaigns for any and all possible claims, valid or not, but this highlights some of the procedural  advantages of class actions over mass tort bankruptcies. For example: one class representative for the entire class, putative or certified; a certification process within which a class of "similarly situated" proposed plaintiffs must be at least facially vetted and blessed by the court; one set of attorneys bringing the case; and one team negotiating the settlement on behalf of the class. Contrary to popular belief, the plaintiffs don't always receive the same award. Also, by the by, "similarly situation" doesn't equate to of equal value. It's about how the claim arose and on what basis they were damaged or disadvantaged by the actions/inactions of the defendant(s). Just some more useless information one may or may not care to know. 

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4 hours ago, David CO said:

We're scouters.  We thrive on useless information.

Whoah...  there is no such thing as "useless" information.   One cannot tell when any piece of knowledge might be of use. Crossword puzzles,  impressing girl friends,  finding folks of common derivation at a party,  preventing wife from hurting herself by repairing "something" . . .  My freshman class in dynamics did not come useful until I started investigating traffic accidents 35 years later.  The laws of physics cannot be denied, it turns out.

But yes, indeed , we do thrive on such esoteria.  Such is very useful.   If the shape of an axe head is the "Michigan" pattern,  or the shape of tent is a "Baker",  it has meaning to them for whom it is needed.   

 

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On 10/27/2020 at 10:01 PM, CynicalScouter said:

Whose is next? The Lutherans? The Catholics?
Claim No    Claim Date Filed    Creditor
C438    10/21/2020    Alamo Heights United Methodist Church
C442    10/21/2020    First United Methodist Church of Del Rio
C439    10/21/2020    Ingleside United Methodist Church
C440    10/21/2020    Oxford United Methodist Church of San Antonio Texas
C441    10/21/2020    St Luke United Methodist Church Austin
C437    10/21/2020    St Mark United Methodist Church
C451    10/22/2020    Bartlett United Methodist Church, Inc.
C457    10/22/2020    Belle Meade United Methodist Church
C466    10/22/2020    Bethany United Methodist Church of Austin
C455    10/22/2020    Bethel United Methodist Church Chewsville
C444    10/22/2020    First United Methodist Church
C471    10/22/2020    First United Methodist Church
C469    10/22/2020    First United Methodist Church - Laredo
C449    10/22/2020    First United Methodist Church Brownsville
C458    10/22/2020    First United Methodist Church Mission, Texas Inc.
C464    10/22/2020    First United Methodist Church Murfreesboro
C461    10/22/2020    Gary Memorial United Methodist Church
C462    10/22/2020    Glen Mar UMC
C474    10/22/2020    Grace United Methodist Church Houghton MI
C465    10/22/2020    Grandville United Methodist Church
C472    10/22/2020    Grosse Pointe United Methodist Church
C446    10/22/2020    Highland United Methodist Church
C454    10/22/2020    Kerrville First United Methodist Church
C459    10/22/2020    Millers United Methodist Church
C452    10/22/2020    Mt Carmel United Methodist Church
C473    10/22/2020    Mt. Pleasant First United Methodist Church
C447    10/22/2020    Saint John's United Methodist Church
C445    10/22/2020    Schertz United Methodist Church
C450    10/22/2020    St. Andrew's United Methodist Church
C467    10/22/2020    The Summit Church
C453    10/22/2020    United Methodist Church of Brady
C468    10/22/2020    Walled Lake UMC
C460    10/22/2020    Wesley Grove United Methodist Church
C549    10/23/2020    Alamo United Methodist Church
C546    10/23/2020    Arapaho United Methodist Church
C520    10/23/2020    Ardsley United Methodist Church
C25    10/23/2020    Bethany United Methodist Church (187831)
C531    10/23/2020    Bethany United Methodist Church (187831)
C505    10/23/2020    Blanchard-Pineriver United Methodist Church
C482    10/23/2020    Blanche UMC
C548    10/23/2020    Bloomfield United Methodist Church
C512    10/23/2020    Clinton Avenue United Methodist Church
C541    10/23/2020    Derby United Methodist Church
C542    10/23/2020    Dixboro United Methodist Church
C527    10/23/2020    Emmanuel United Methodist Church
C501    10/23/2020    Epworth United Methodist Church Gaithersburg
C498    10/23/2020    First Methodist Church Colleyville Texas
C540    10/23/2020    First United Methodist Church of Carrollton
C507    10/23/2020    First United Methodist Church of Shelton
C489    10/23/2020    First United Methodist Church, Victoria
C487    10/23/2020    Flat Rock First United Methodist Church
C518    10/23/2020    Gashland United Methodist Churdch
C547    10/23/2020    Glen Burnie United Methodist Church
C475    10/23/2020    Goodrich United Methodist Church
C481    10/23/2020    Grace United Methodist Church
C496    10/23/2020    Grace United Methodist Church
C508    10/23/2020    Grace United Methodist Church
C552    10/23/2020    Grace United Methodist Church
C24    10/23/2020    Holiday Park United Methodist Church (98585)
C529    10/23/2020    Holiday Park United Methodist Church (98585)
C513    10/23/2020    Homestead Park United Methodist Church
C20    10/23/2020    Homestead Park United Methodist Church (103240)
C517    10/23/2020    Hudson First United Methodist Church
C530    10/23/2020    Katonah United Methodist Church
C499    10/23/2020    Kensington United Methodist Church
C476    10/23/2020    Lone Oak United Methodist Church
C478    10/23/2020    Marysville United Methodist Church
C484    10/23/2020    Michelson Memorial United Methodist Church
C510    10/23/2020    New Life United Methodist Church
C509    10/23/2020    New Milford United Methodist Churcg
C495    10/23/2020    New World UMC Arlington Texas
C477    10/23/2020    New York Annual Conference of the
C500    10/23/2020    Newington United Methodist Church
C514    10/23/2020    Nolensville First United Methodist Church
C488    10/23/2020    Oscoda United Methodist Church
C539    10/23/2020    Pearl Street United Methodist Church
C480    10/23/2020    Petoskey United Methodist Church
C551    10/23/2020    Pleasant Street United Methodist Church
C492    10/23/2020    Port Huron First United Methodist Church
C493    10/23/2020    Poughkeepsie United Methodist Church
C535    10/23/2020    Redeemer United Methodist Church
C511    10/23/2020    Redford Aldersgate UMC
C28    10/23/2020    Ringgold United Methodist Church (85845)
C536    10/23/2020    Ringgold United Methodist Church (85845)
C21    10/23/2020    Roxbury St Paul United Methodist Church (187944)
C522    10/23/2020    Roxbury St Paul United Methodist Church (187944)
C503    10/23/2020    Saint James UMC of Kingston
C490    10/23/2020    Saint Pauls United Methodist Church
C23    10/23/2020    Salem United Methodist Church (96644)
C528    10/23/2020    Salem United Methodist Church (96644)
C526    10/23/2020    Severna Park United Methodist Church
C502    10/23/2020    Shepherd United Methodist Church
C485    10/23/2020    Simpson United Methodist Church
C22    10/23/2020    South Greensburg United Methodist Church (98643)
C525    10/23/2020    South Greensburg United Methodist Church (98643)
C491    10/23/2020    St. John's United Methodist Church
C506    10/23/2020    St. Paul United Methodist Church
C27    10/23/2020    Summit Chapel United Methodist Church (97502)
C534    10/23/2020    Summit Chapel United Methodist Church (97502)
C524    10/23/2020    The First United Methodist Church of Lowell
C543    10/23/2020    The United Methodist Church of Peekskill
C516    10/23/2020    Trinity Boscobel United Methodist Church
C504    10/23/2020    Trinity United Methodist Church
C29    10/23/2020    Trinity United Methodist Church (188061)
C537    10/23/2020    Trinity United Methodist Church (188061)
C538    10/23/2020    Trinity United Methodist Church (188061)
C26    10/23/2020    Unionville United Methodist Church (96861)
C532    10/23/2020    Unionville United Methodist Church (96861)
C523    10/23/2020    United Churches of Durham
C533    10/23/2020    United Methodist Church at Shrub Oak
C519    10/23/2020    United Methodist Church of Babylon
C515    10/23/2020    United Methodist Church of Bay Shore
C544    10/23/2020    United Methodist Church of Sea Cliff
C497    10/23/2020    United Methodist Church of Watertown
C494    10/23/2020    West Hartford United Methodist Church
C486    10/23/2020    Westwood United Methodist Church
C550    10/23/2020    Wethersfield United Methodist Church
C555    10/24/2020    First United Methodist Church, Ansonia, CT
C554    10/24/2020    Fishkill United Methodist Church
C556    10/24/2020    Fishkill United Methodist Church
C559    10/24/2020    Grace United Methodist Church
C553    10/24/2020    Iglesia Evangelica Metodista Unida de Coop City
C560    10/24/2020    Montgomery United Methodist Church
C561    10/24/2020    Mt Zion United Methodist Church - Highland, Md
C557    10/24/2020    Naugatuck United Methodist Church
C558    10/24/2020    Trinity United Methodist Parish
C39    10/26/2020    Armagh United Methodist Church (97227)
C40    10/26/2020    Baden United Methodist Church (95263)
C46    10/26/2020    Bakerstown United Methodist Church (95285)
C36    10/26/2020    Calvary United Methodist Church (100543)
C52    10/26/2020    Christ United Methodist Church (89227)
C47    10/26/2020    Fells United Methodist Church (99660)
C48    10/26/2020    First United Methodist Church (103546)
C53    10/26/2020    First United Methodist Church (103980)
C51    10/26/2020    First United Methodist Church (180908)
C44    10/26/2020    First United Methodist Church (85787)
C34    10/26/2020    First United Methodist Church (89901)
C30    10/26/2020    Glenwood United Methodist Church (60674)
C42    10/26/2020    Greenstone United Methodist Church (101148)
C49    10/26/2020    Haven Heights United Methodist Church (Pitt)
C41    10/26/2020    Lakeside United Methodist Church (85388)
C43    10/26/2020    Lakewood United Methodist Church (89307)
C54    10/26/2020    Latrobe United Methodist Church (98120)
C33    10/26/2020    Monroeville United Methodist Church (98324)
C38    10/26/2020    Mount Lebanon United Methodist Church (101308)
C45    10/26/2020    Nixon United Methodist Church (95503)
C50    10/26/2020    Otterbein United Methodist Church (189475)
C31    10/26/2020    Stone United Methodist Church (89626)
C35    10/26/2020    Stone United Methodist Church (89626)
C37    10/26/2020    Trinity United Methodist Church (100554)
C32    10/26/2020    W. PA Annual Conference of the
C55    10/26/2020    West View United Methodist Church (102245)

2. In October 2020, several Conferences of the United Methodist Church and many United Methodist Churches retained Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP “Bradley” to represent their interests in these Chapter 11 Cases.The addresses and identities of the Conferences of the United Methodist Church that retained Bradley are set forth in Exhibit A. The addresses and identities of the United Methodist Churches that retained by Bradley are attached as Exhibit B.

3. Each of the United Methodist Churches set forth in Exhibit B is a Chartered Organization and holds a Claim2 against debtor Boy Scouts of America (“BSA”) arising from BSA’s obligation to indemnify and hold Chartered Organizations harmless for any injuries or damages arising out of official scouting activities or arising out of BSA membership standards, including, but not limited to, Indirect Abuse Claims and Claims held by scouts or other Persons for Abuse. Each of the United Methodist Churches set forth in Exhibit B also holds a Claim against BSA arising out of BSA’s obligation to provide Chartered Organizations primary general liability insurance to cover Chartered Organizations and related entities with respect to Claims arising out of an official scouting activity, including, but not limited to, insurance coverage to cover Claims held by scouts or other Persons for Abuse. As of the date of this filing, the amount of each Claimheld by the United Methodist Churches reflected in Exhibit B is unknown.

4. Each of the United Methodist Churches set forth in Exhibit B is a member of one of the Conferences of the United Methodist Church set forth in Exhibit A. Generally, the Conferences of the United Methodist Church provide services to United Methodist Churches within their jurisdictions, including risk management services.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/865772_1845.pdf

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IMO the chartered organization model should never have existed simply because it had too many fatal flaws. I can't remember all my early scouting history, but I hardly think having churches use scouting as youth ministry is what BP had in mind. And not to say that we should be overly concerned with what BP had in mind because what worked then doesn't always work now. But if the general concept is that scouting is a game with a purpose,  where does scouts as perpetual Sunday School fit into that? Some COs exert too much influence on scouting to suit their own needs, to the point where units can be wildly different experiences. If you walk into a McDonald's, you ought to be able to get a Big Mac no matter where you are.  I think the idea of CO as benign sponsor and provider of space is the right one simply because BSA can't oversee anything more than that. I don't see it as COs not understanding their responsibility; I see it as BSA long abdicating its oversight role. The CO model was neglected for a variety of reasons although mainly financial and numerical and it should have been retooled long before now.  The current panic may well result in turning scouting into a hot potato for many chartering organizations, not just churches. 

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I also can't see a great reason for the chartered org relationship in the first place. I wonder if this has a lot to do with the LDS church involvement. It was perfect for them as it allowed Scouts to be that extension of the church. They owned the equipment, they choose the leaders, they chartered the unit. For nearly every other organization, it may not make much sense. I guess I could see a church saying "hey, we want a neat youth group that goes camping, let's do Scouts BSA!" That is pretty far fetched, though. 

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16 minutes ago, yknot said:

IMO the chartered organization model should never have existed simply because it had too many fatal flaws.

My understanding is that this was a point of organizational concern but that National when it was created in 1911 was unable to know who in a community was of good character/good leader but that the COs (originally called "Sponsoring Institution" would. In other words, everyone "knew" that local churches were of good moral character and would therefore do the vetting for Scouting to pick good, moral leaders. Same thing with fraternal organizations, etc.

This 1934 Boys Life notes

Quote

All Troops must be connected with a Sponsoring Institution This can be a church, a school, the American Legion, the Rotary Club, the Ki- wanis Club, the Lions, etc

.

Of course since then the idea collapsed as COs looked at their role as room/hall rental facilities and nothing more. That's why COs that were nothing more than "Parents of Troop 123, LLC" are frowned upon.

So the question comes up: who is going to vet and be sure that the unit leaders at least pass the smell test (forget about whether they are good leaders)? You take the COs out of the equation, then all you have left if councils running criminal and credit background checks and hoping for the best. That's where we are now, of course.

But that's not what is going to happen GENERALLY. I've seen the new Council-chartered unit agreement. It basically takes the CO responsibility and places it official on Council. At least that way it is officially on someone who may (or may not) take it seriously because right now I know few if any COs who do.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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9 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I wonder if this has a lot to do with the LDS church involvement.

The CO system goes back to 1911. LDS glomed onto Boy Scouts circa 1980s (Varsity Scouting was, in effect, created for the LDS).

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15 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

LDS glomed onto Boy Scouts circa 1980s

LDS history goes way way back. Long before Varsity Scouting.

 

1913
The Church officially joins the Boy Scouts of America as its first charter organization, adopting the program as the activity arm of its Mutual Improvement Association.

1928
The Church designates Scouting as the official activity program for young men ages 12–16.

Edited by mrjohns2
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8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

My understanding is that this was a point of organizational concern but that National when it was created in 1911 was unable to know who in a community was of good character/good leader but that the COs (originally called "Sponsoring Institution" would. In other words, everyone "knew" that local churches were of good moral character and would therefore do the vetting for Scouting to pick good, moral leaders. Same thing with fraternal organizations, etc.

Of course since then the idea collapsed as COs looked at their role as room/hall rental facilities and nothing more. That's why COs that were nothing more than "Parents of Troop 123, LLC" are frowned upon.

So the question comes up: who is going to vet and be sure that the unit leaders at least pass the smell test (forget about whether they are good leaders)? You take the COs out of the equation, then all you have left if councils running criminal and credit background checks and hoping for the best. That's where we are now, of course.

But that's not what is going to happen GENERALLY. I've seen the new Council-chartered unit agreement. It basically takes the CO responsibility and places it official on Council. At least that way it is officially on someone who may (or may not) take it seriously because right now I know few if any COs who do.

Ahhh... well the days when everyone who was born in a village and then stayed in that village are long gone. I think the difference I see in BSA vs. other youth organizations is that in other organizations every adult is actively, visibly, and continually answerable to someone else.  That kind of supervisory relationship doesn't exist in BSA because they kind of farmed it out to the COs but then provided no managerial follow up. You cannot blame a legacy CO, that has been in operation for decades for having no idea the extent of their assumed responsibilities if BSA doesn't inform them and try to correct it.

 

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The Sexual Abuse Survivor Proof of Claim Form, at Sec. 4, Sub P H requests, in pertinent part, the "name and location of the organization that hosted meetings of your Scouting unit, during the time of the sexual abuse." Although it includes a caveat that the CO's, "are not currently parties to the bankruptcy," the question wouldn't be in the POC if there was anything other than the intention to pursue them in the same manner as the LC's. The LC's liability/involvement in the bankruptcy is similarly caveated. 

I realize you are aware of this, but I think the need to defend against asserted culpability and/or contribute to the yet to established Victims' Compensation Trust is coming. The Methodist Church is clearly braced for it. CO's that are oblivious and believe they are only tangentially a part of Scouting will be caught unaware and unprotected. Further, if national is a shell of its former self, including depleted of assets, preemptive claims against the BSA won't mean much. In states where the SL's are lifted or subject to a look back window, the CO's will now be more clearly a target, as they have raised their heads to seek defense by the BSA. Effectively, they have self-identified as parties to the abuse, targets and viable sources of recovery and awards.

Again, just my shiny nickel. I'm too verbose for that to qualify as two cents.  

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