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1 hour ago, David CO said:

Yes.  The current offer is unreasonable.

Then what is reasonable given:

1) Total BSA National assets = $1.4 billion.

2) Total Local Council assets = $1.6 billion - $3.3 billion

3) Total abuse claimants = 87,000

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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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I'm going to gather these three are the most likely:

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Scenario 1 - Liquidate National: claimants get $0 since the pension programs would, by law, have to be secured/paid out first to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and they already put in a $1.1 BILLION dollar claim. Total to each claimant: $0

Scenario 3 - $1 Billion in Settlement from BSA + LCs, ALL Abuse Claimants:  Same as scenario 2, but BSA and the LCs pay out to all 87,000 claimants. Total to each claimant: $11,494

Scenario 4 - $525 Million in Settlement from BSA + LCs, ALL Abuse Claimants: Pretty much the current plan: BSA National puts in $225 million, LCs $300 million. 87,000 claimants. Total to each claimant: $6,034

Scenarios two and five seem like variations base on whomever is in the pool.

So at this point it's all a question of how much the court can force the BSA to cut before it really is no longer viable as an entity.

 

How much did the court force the catholic dioceses to liquidate during their bankruptcies?  Did they have to sell many churches?  It strikes me that this is the parallel to look at.

 

 

Edited by ParkMan
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13 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

How much did the court force the catholic dioceses to liquidate during their bankruptcies?  Did they have to sell many churches?  It strikes me that this is the parallel to look at.

No, because it is a giant difference. The Catholic Church is NOT identical or parallel to BSA for a host of reasons.

1) First Amendment protections

2) Churches as corporations sole

3) The physical churches as being held in trust

4) CLEAR lines that parishes and churches are under the direct command and control of the diocese/bishop (vs. BSA where National is/is not controlling Councils)

5) Churches (the physical things) are an essential element of religious activities and therefore more protected

6) Religious Freedom Restoration Act grants additional protections to the Catholic Church that BSA does not have

Etc.

Thus, while diocese had to sell OTHER properties, the actual churches themselves to my knowledge were NOT sold/liquidated to appease creditors.

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

There is no reasonable in cases like this.  It's far, far, far too low and also too high at the same time.  I just don't see any good from this.  The only good is ending the case.

The Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus fire in 1944 killed and injure many people.  The circus was liable.  The costs were huge.  Yet the circus didn't go bankrupt or shirk their debts.  It took 10 years to pay it off, but they did pay it off. 

BSA should pay every single cent it owes.  Until it pays off the entire debt, staff should be minimal and salaries capped.  No frills.

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22 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yep. A version what are called Clery Act Reports (institutions of higher education) that are reported for review.

For example, right now I can pull up data on Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter, Negligent manslaughter, Rape, Fondling, Incest, Statutory rape, Robbery, Aggravated assault, Burglary, Motor vehicle theft, and Arson.

I can find this out for a particular college OR a particular campus of that college.

I can then see how many resulted in arrests, disciplinary actions, unfounded crimes, and fire statistics (?)

https://ope.ed.gov/campussafety/#/

Perhaps something like this will be part of the non-monetary settlement terms. Lest we forget.

Consider Docket 1881  from December.

DEBTORS’ MOTION FOR ENTRY OF AN ORDER (I) APPROVING HENDERSON SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT AND (II) MODIFYING THE AUTOMATIC STAY, TO THE EXTENT NECESSARY, TO PERMIT PAYMENT OF SETTLEMENT AMOUNT BY APPLICABLE INSURANCE

and the Safety Moment website posting that the BSA was required to do.

Defendants further agree that, within a reasonable time after the Effective Date (not to exceed seven (7) days) the BSA shall post the Safety Moment attached as Exhibit A, on the BSA website. In exchange for payment of the Settlement Amount and the above-described non-monetary provisions, the Plaintiff agrees to dismiss the Lawsuit with prejudice and without costs and provide the releases set forth below.

BSA website posting.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/fatal-fall-nolans-story/

Docket 1881 reference Pages 17 and 24

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/867561_1881.pdf

I found these other cases:

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/dangers-of-leaving-scouts-unsupervised-sand-dunes-and-digging-in-sand-dunes-gages-story/

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/hazard-trees-and-hammocks-jacks-story/

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/roadside-fatality-austins-story/

Also of note:

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/shooting-sports/

Another $0.02,

Edited by RememberSchiff
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2 minutes ago, David CO said:

The Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus fire in 1944 killed and injure many people.  The circus was liable.  The costs were huge.  Yet the circus didn't go bankrupt or shirk their debts.  It took 10 years to pay it off, but they did pay it off. 

BSA should pay every single cent it owes.  Until it pays off the entire debt, staff should be minimal and salaries capped.  No frills.

Interestingly, elephants and a growing irrelevance to what audiences of today seek eventually brought about their bankruptcy. 

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49 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Scenarios two and five seem like variations base on whomever is in the pool.

Being in the pool sound a lot more fun than it really is.  ;)

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58 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

No, because it is a giant difference. The Catholic Church is NOT identical or parallel to BSA for a host of reasons.

1) First Amendment protections

2) Churches as corporations sole

3) The physical churches as being held in trust

4) CLEAR lines that parishes and churches are under the direct command and control of the diocese/bishop (vs. BSA where National is/is not controlling Councils)

5) Churches (the physical things) are an essential element of religious activities and therefore more protected

6) Religious Freedom Restoration Act grants additional protections to the Catholic Church that BSA does not have

Etc.

Thus, while diocese had to sell OTHER properties, the actual churches themselves to my knowledge were NOT sold/liquidated to appease creditors.

Thanks!

I was thinking of an analogy between churches and scout camps - and whether there is any sort of parallel.  Having a place to camp seems a part of the Scouting experience.  I wasn't sure if perhaps dioceses had to reduce a certain number of churches or go through some mergers.  I wouldn't be surprised for example to see a third of camps sold based on utilization or some such thing.  I didn't know if perhaps there was some precedent that might already be in the minds of the judge here.

 

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33 minutes ago, David CO said:

The Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus fire in 1944 killed and injure many people.  The circus was liable.  The costs were huge.  Yet the circus didn't go bankrupt or shirk their debts.  It took 10 years to pay it off, but they did pay it off. 

BSA should pay every single cent it owes.  Until it pays off the entire debt, staff should be minimal and salaries capped.  No frills.

Neat story. But big differences:

1) That fire killed 167 and injured 700, for a total of ~867. The current number of claims against BSA is 100 times as large (87,000).

2) Ringling knew how much it owed because had specific medical bills and pain/suffer awards or court judgements. NO ONE has agreed so far how much each claimant will get here.

But let's keep playing out your scenario and see how far we get.

3) BSA's total revenue, before any expenses, was 285,151,314 in 2018 and 408,616,814 in 2019. That was BEFORE 50-60% of membership left. But let's be REALLY optimistic and say revenue will remain around $200,000,000 a year for the next decade. Again, NO expenses. NO BSA employees; forget "minimal staff" under this plan there is NO staff. NO ONE GETS PAID ANYTHING in this imaginary scenario where ALL BSA National's revenue is converted into abuse payments.

3) If we convert all BSA revenue for the next 10 years (ala Ringling Brothers) into abuse payments that would be $2 billion. Again, BSA would reneg on all other expenses.

4) $2 billion/87,000 claims = $22,988 per claimant.

Is that enough or would you still consider it "unreasonable"?

If not then @David COplease indicate the amount that WOULD be "reasonable" and how, precisely, you think BSA is going to pay for it.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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I have been following this discussion and the news coverage very closely on this issue. I feel that the victims should be compensated fairly.  $50-60,000 should be a minimum. If it takes total liquidation of the BSA so be it.

The BSA has become more about high priced execs sitting behind a desk and less about kids doing scouting activities over the past few decades. 

It has been next to impossible to get camp maintenance done when the first priority is staff salaries. There are so many camps out there falling into disrepair when councils spend millions on staff salaries. 

Why does a medium sized local council need 40 full time employees? I do not see the value here.

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Mar 9:

"The committee representing child sex abuse survivors in the Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy case has agreed to the extension (to July 19) of an injunction halting lawsuits against local Boy Scouts councils and sponsoring organizations.

In return for the extension, the BSA and local councils must provide the committee with information about local troop rosters that can help victims validate their claims, according to a court filing submitted Monday."

Source, note more conditions to this agreement at end of article:

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-03-09/victims-agree-to-extend-temporary-halt-on-boy-scout-lawsuits

Edited by RememberSchiff
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1 hour ago, 1980Scouter said:

I have been following this discussion and the news coverage very closely on this issue. I feel that the victims should be compensated fairly.  $50-60,000 should be a minimum. If it takes total liquidation of the BSA so be it.

My income has dropped by about half during  thrse past 12 months of shutdowns. I could certainly use an extra. $50-$60 K.  Or even $6 K. But as I have said on previous posts, I can not see any justice in depriving a million or more Scouts of their summer camps because a long dead Scoutmaster didn't deserve the name.  I have no wish to expound on the various  punishments that I think would be appropriate for these predators. But stealing from the scouts isn't fair or just. It may  indeed be legal, but it still ain't right

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2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

I have been following this discussion and the news coverage very closely on this issue. I feel that the victims should be compensated fairly.  $50-60,000 should be a minimum. If it takes total liquidation of the BSA so be it.

The BSA has become more about high priced execs sitting behind a desk and less about kids doing scouting activities over the past few decades. 

It has been next to impossible to get camp maintenance done when the first priority is staff salaries. There are so many camps out there falling into disrepair when councils spend millions on staff salaries. 

Why does a medium sized local council need 40 full time employees? I do not see the value here.

For what it's worth.  Our larger than medium sized council has 17 employees:

  • 1 Scout Executive
  • 3 people who do administrative support
  • 2 people who raise the bulk of the council's funding
  • 3 people who work on programming, summer camp, and other events
  • 1 council registrar
  • 1 camp ranger
  • 6 district executives who support our units

Could you cut a few - sure.  But I don't think this is terribly out of whack.

If national liquidates, it just about pays for the pension obligations that they have.  You have to liquidate councils too to get to more money.  No more packs or troops, no more summer camp, no more local Scouting.  That's what we're all talking about when we say liquidation. 

Edited by ParkMan
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14 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If national liquidates, it just about pays for the pension obligations that they have.  You have to liquidate councils too to get to more money.  No more packs or troops, no more summer camp, no more local Scouting.  That's what we're all talking about when we say liquidation. 

I disagree.  Local scouting can continue on its own without all of that national and council infrastructure.  We don't need them.  17 council employees is 17 too many.

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The agreement to extend the injunction also prohibits any local council from selling or transferring any property with the intent to hinder or defraud creditors, or without receiving compensation that equals the property's value.

The agreement also prohibits local councils from designating unrestricted assets as restricted “by board resolution or otherwise,” including proceeds from the sale of assets.

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