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robert12

EBOR question

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There is a scout in my district who his SM feels did not satisfactorily complete the eagle project, no leadership demonstrated.  The SM still needs to speak with the scout, but let's assume he does not sign the application, and he informs the scout properly of the Eagle Board of Review Under Disputed Circumstances procedures in which the scout initiates.  And now let's say the EBOR-UDC agrees with the SM and denies the scout and all appeals go against the scout.  So here's the question, can the scout do another project and have another EBOR?  

The reason I ask this is item 10 of section 8.0.3.0 of the G2A states "An Eagle candidate may have only one board of review (though it may be adjourned and reconvened).  Subsequent action falls under the appeals process."

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@robert12, I would strongly suggest you contact your District Advancement Chairperson to get a better handle on this situation.  Personally, I would hate to see the Eagle candidate miss his opportunity to "fix" what his Scoutmaster and, potentially the District Eagle Coordinator, find unsatisfactory regarding the candidate's project and, apparent, lack of leadership.  In theory, the District Operations Committee (a/k/a District Committee) should have an advancement chairperson who reports to the District Chair.  Also, your District Commissioner and District Executive can give guidance.  If those folks can't help, your local Council Service Center should be able to point you in the proper direction.

I hate to speculate, but I would presume that, following what you've shown from the Guide to Advancement, the Eagle candidate would have the one shot and one shot only.  To your knowledge, has the Scoutmaster spoken with the candidate and the candidate's family about this?  Why escalate the issue when it might be mitigated before moving to "disputed circumstances"?

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The SM does not sit on the EBOR and has no vote.  However, if the EBOR has not convened yet, the SM can decline to sign off on the project and decline to sign the scout's Eagle Application.  Hopefully, there was an SM Conference in which the SM clearly explained what he thought were deficiencies and told the Scout how to "fix" it.  That being said, the time to discuss expectations was when the Scout's Eagle Project proposal was submitted to the troop SM and DAC for approval to begin.  So, the EBOR is not convened until the SM is satisfied that all requirements (including project approvals) have been met.  HOPEFULLY, this can all be accomplished before the scout's 18th birthday.  This illustrates the risk of procrastinating and waiting until your 18th birthday is approaching...always allow time to make adjustments if necessary.

Edit: Upon re-reading your post, i realized you are already aware of all this.  I will leave it as info for others.

Edited by scoutldr

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I’m curious, do you know what his project is?

Maybe he did show Leadership but the scoutmaster may not like the scout, or doesn’t want him to get Eagle.

Anyway, I wish him luck and hope he is able to fix it. What happened to the saying “The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing.” Maybe he’ll take it as a learning experience and be able to fix it if he feels the same way.

If I was the SM for my Troop (hypothetically speaking), I wouldn’t approve of one of a soon to be Eagle Scout. There’s just some projects where the scout didn’t show anything but did the easiest thing they could find.

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My take?

If the district/council thinks the boy did not complete the requirements (e.g., paperwork missing, the signature of a counselor or project beneficiary is invalid, etc...) they need to ask the scout to rectify those things before going forward. Once everything is in place on paper, start the board, soon. If anything is lacking, suspend the board with instructions in writing for what the scout should do before the board may reconvene.

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Just like in the professional world, an employee shouldn't be floored by a poor performance review which seemingly comes from out of the blue.  Rather, a supervisor should coach/mentor an employee such that poor reviews aren't necessary.  Likewise, a Scoutmaster should coach/mentor the Eagle candidate.  I would highly recommend, as I said before, suggesting the Scoutmaster meet with the candidate sooner than later to share his/her concerns.  The Eagle candidate shouldn't arrive at the Eagle Board of Review and get blindsided.  

As a somewhat humorous look into past concerns regarding Eagle candidates, I share with you this letter from the Jan/Feb 1970 issue of Scouting

"At our last Eagle board of review, a candidate appeared who presented unconventional views on life in general--government, education, personal rights, etc.  And, although dressed neatly in proper uniform, his hair was of abnormal, almost shoulder, length.  After much discussion and probing with this young man, we decided that despite his unconventionality we could not condemn his viewpoint.  Most of us found him to be otherwise a well-qualified candidate of fine individual worth.

However, we delayed making a decision and asked him to return because we can't agree on the effect his appearance might have on others.  We wonder what Scouts and adults will think who see him receiving Scouting's highest honor and yet are not award of his personal qualifications.  We have sought outside counsel, and reaction is mixed there too.  Many feel the boy's appearance reflects his unacceptable thinking and is bad for Scouting.  Many are noncommittal.  Right now I don't know what to do.  Certainly, this problem has been encountered in other councils throughout the country--and we may encounter it again.  Any suggestions?"

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Don'tcha just love these great dramas brought on by the adults?  I often wonder whether these people are in such positions just to make it difficult for the boys in the program.  It would seem so.  Didn't show leadership.  Now there's a subjective requirement that can do it's fair share of keeping the "Eagle Award" pure and pristine.

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The SM is planning on having a discussion with the young man and his parents to get there take as the SM only has second hand information.  He was told by several scouts that were there that the scout was just a helper and his parents did all of the leading, and the scout had not met the beneficiary until after the project was complete.

For the project itself it was a good project, they build several library boxes and installed them in the community.  The SM has no problem with the scout earning Eagle, he just wants to make sure the requirements are completed as stated, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by robert12

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I have seen a Scout do a second project before. First project was so screwed up, that the benefiting org asked him and the rest of his troop to leave immediately with the project unfinished. Also Boy Scouts are no longer allowed to do projects for the org, despite 15+ years of working with them. He redid the project book and approval process for the second project.

 

Don't quote me, but I thought I heard about a possible lawsuit against the BSA over the matter as the screw up WAS major, had potential legal liabilities, and almost shut down the benefiting org. Professional contractors had to come in a fix the problem.

I would think that the EBOR gave him a written plan to correct what is needed. If a new project was part of that, then it is still only 1 BOR.

 

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35 minutes ago, robert12 said:

The SM is planning on having a discussion with the young man and his parents to get there take as the SM only has second hand information.  He was told by several scouts that were there that the scout was just a helper and his parents did all of the leading, and the scout had not met the beneficiary until after the project was complete.

For the project itself it was a good project, they build several library boxes and installed them in the community.  The SM has no problem with the scout earning Eagle, he just wants to make sure the requirements are completed as stated, nothing more, nothing less.

If he talked over email the whole time then I don't believe he was a effective leader. I had to meet with the beneficiary at least 4-5 times to even just approve it. (I did my project at end of Sept.). 

I know a scout in my troop with the somewhat same scenario. He painted the floor and walls of the basement meeting hall of our CO. His parents did all the work, did the workbook, did the project. But, only the SM and CC cares that he didn't show leadership and all that, but the CO doesn't care since it was done.

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The SM should have seen this coming and should have put a plan in place before the Scout failed.

I have concerns like this for 3 of our Scouts. My plan is to work with them personally, to ensure that the parents/friend do not do all of the work and provide the leadership for the Scout during the Eagle Project process. I also plan on attending the work days and helping with the projects so that I can know for myself firsthand that the leadership was provided. 

 

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Just to give an update, the SM had a discussion with the scout and turns out the initial information he received was not quite accurate, the SM has no issues on how the project was carried out and signed off on the project as complete.  The SM now understands that Eagle projects are troop functions and should there should be coordination between the scout and the troop.

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59 minutes ago, robert12 said:

Just to give an update, the SM had a discussion with the scout and turns out the initial information he received was not quite accurate, the SM has no issues on how the project was carried out and signed off on the project as complete.  The SM now understands that Eagle projects are troop functions and should there should be coordination between the scout and the troop.

I’m assuming the SM has never been involved in scouting?

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1 hour ago, robert12 said:

Just to give an update, the SM had a discussion with the scout and turns out the initial information he received was not quite accurate, the SM has no issues on how the project was carried out and signed off on the project as complete.

Glad to hear it worked out.

1 hour ago, robert12 said:

The SM now understands that Eagle projects are troop functions and should there should be coordination between the scout and the troop.

Not to be too picky here in the happy aftermath of the project approval, but an Eagle project is not a troop function.  It is a function of the Eagle candidate, within the parameters of the approval given by the project beneficiary, and with the assistance of "others" - all of whom, some of whom or none of whom may be Scouts and/or Scouters in the troop.  Potentially the candidate could be the only member of the troop who works on the project (although I have never seen this happen.)  Of course, there should be coordination between the candidate and the troop, because most times the candidate will be relying on members of the troop to be his "workers," and the workers can't work if they are instead on a camping trip somewhere.  But this kind of coordination and cooperation does not make the project a troop function; it is same kind of coordination and cooperation that leads us not to schedule a fundraising activity that would directly compete with a fundraiser of our CO - or any other community group, if we can avoid it.  It's just good citizenship.

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22 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Not to be too picky here in the happy aftermath of the project approval, but an Eagle project is not a troop function. 

Actually Eagle projects are considered troop activities, this changed either with the initial release of the Guide to Advancement in 2011 or with one of its revisions.  

This is from the 2017 revision:

Quote

9.0.2.14 Risk Management and Eagle Scout Service Projects

All Eagle Scout service projects constitute official Scouting activity and thus are subject to Boy Scouts of America policies and procedures. Projects are considered part of a unit’s program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc.

Unit leadership should be aware of project plans and schedules. The health and safety of those working on Eagle projects must be integrated into project execution. Since an Eagle Scout service project is a unit activity, unit adult leadership has the same responsibility to assure safety in conducting a project as with any other unit activity. The unit leader or unit committee should reject proposals for inherently unsafe projects. The candidate should plan for safe execution, but it must be understood that minors cannot and must not be held responsible for safety concerns. As with any Scouting activity, the Guide to Safe Scouting applies. The “Sweet 16 of BSA Safety” must also be consulted as an appropriate planning tool. It can be found online at “Scouting Safely,” www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Sweet16.

 

Edited by robert12
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