Stosh 3452 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country... Obviously one's honor isn't worth much when said with tongue in cheek. Again, regardless of one's position in life, one's trustworthiness and honor takes a beating when one is trying to deceive others. I'm not ready to accept such deception as good role-model material. Your mileage may vary, Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Touc, You lie and you are selfish by your own anonymous admission so no you're not a good, moral, well mannered role model. Now if you were honest with your SM, CC and COR maybe I would have some respect for you but what I see is someone willing to lie and cheat the system because it suits you and it's easier that standing up for what you believe in. I have no respect for you, not because you are gay, but because you are a lier. And we also need to address the word "discrimination" in the context of this thread. BSA chooses who can be members and who can't. They stood up for what they believe in and took the hit for it as you noted with various actions that were taken against them. You chose to lie so you could have your way dispite the rules. They accepted the hits and held to their beliefs all the way to the SCOTUS. The result is that BSA gets to choose who can belong to their organization. You can call this discrimination in the same way as most organizations set membership requirements. I joined the Sons of the American Revolution but only after I proved I was a descendant of a Rev War soldier, I tried to join the Sons of the Confederacy but could not prove a descendant from the South so I was not allowed to join. Was I discriminated against? Well I guess you could say so but in reality I just didn't meet the joining requirements. You do not meet BSA's adult membership requirements therefore you should be dropped from the roles.(This message has been edited by Eagle732) Link to post Share on other sites
vol_scouter 365 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 It is not discrimination to be denied membership because you do not meet the requirements. If you are 5"2" and 120 lbs. you are not going to play in the NBA or the NFL. If you cannot do higher mathematics, you are not going to be a physicist. If you cannot understand pathophysiology or have a bad memory, you are not going to be a physician. If you never served in the military, you can't be in the VFW. So if you do not meet the membership requirements for the BSA, you should be honest and not join or leave if a member. You are not a victim of discrimination. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle007 10 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Scouter Terry Howerton said, "1. Keep the debate honest. 2. Treat each other with respect. ... basically, act Scout like." These are the rules of decorum that he said he will enforce in the threads. If that is the case then the moderators or he need to close this thread because those rules have been broken. I am imploring the moderators and/or Scouter Terry Howerton to look at this thread as one that has no honesty nor respect in it (if there was the person in question would identify himself to his troop and return his eagle award to the council with a letter of apology to all. 1. Keep the debate honest. BSA doesn't allow for gay scouts/scouters. Yet the person in question led a life of deception and still is. 2. Treat others with respect. I, and many others, am not being respected as an Eagle Scout/Scouter with this misrepresentation being allowed to continue. 3. ...basically, act Scout like. There is nothing about this thread that is Scout like. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 007, Seems like the debate has been pretty honest so far. Touc asked for our opinions, I offered mine. Mine is an honest opinion. So why shut down the thread? I don't agree with what he has done but I think the discussion has some merit. I don't see anyone else being disrespectful or dishonest.(This message has been edited by Eagle732) Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle007 10 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Scout like. What about deception is Scout like? That's why it needs to be shut down. This is my final post on this thread because it nauseates me to the core. Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Whether a topic gets "shut down" is really dependent on the forum membership. You all seem to like the topic, judging by the number of posts in such a short time. Quit talking about it and that will end the discussion. Don't expect we moderators are going to put a quick end to what you all want to talk about. Link to post Share on other sites
Scoutfish 16 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 007, "1. Keep the debate honest. 2. Treat each other with respect. ... basically, act Scout like." Terry's rules are about the thread, not about people's lives outside the thread. Technically, the Op is not lying IN THE THREAD, but the thread honestly and openly talks about lying outside the thread. The thread is not the lie, but ABOUT the lie, which completely follows Terry's rules. But some of the responces, althoughhonest, are less than scoutlike in nature. Same answer could be written in a nicer- yet still honest way. Tact. That's all, just a little tact Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I think Scoutfish has summarized the logic nicely. And Lisa has demonstrated the best option for those who feel strongly about this. If we stop responding, it will die a natural death. But so far, that fuzzy line that I have in my mind that would require closing the thread hasn't been crossed. I hope that Tuoc Syag will recognize what the latest strong statements are: a challenge to him to supply a well-reasoned and thorough explanation or rebuttal, one that might even change some minds - or at least stimulate some well-reasoned and thoughtful conversation. Absent that, this thread will soon enough whimper into oblivion through inactivity unless someone else wants to keep it alive and carry that conversation. Link to post Share on other sites
skeptic 997 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Seems to me that troll or not, this subject has been discussed ad infinite um, and the horse must be dead by now. Perhaps it is time to simply bury it. Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 In the context of Scout Spirit requirements, I require my outspoken, self-described atheist Scouts to memorize and then explain in their own words what Carl Sagan reported to be Einstein's summary of Spinoza's pantheist definition of God: "God is the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe." Atheist problem solved References to Pantheism in Rev. Baden Powell's Order of Nature: http://inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm B-P and "Nature Knowledge:" http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 It seems to me Kudu that you basically just told the athiest scout to say "Repeat after me!" to give you the out. Gutless on both your parts. I have no trouble with a scout trying find his way, which might be the reason I've rarely had trouble with a scout's conflict on the god part of scouting. All boys struggle in developing their identity, its part of nature. I admit that in the many hundreds of scouts I've worked with, I never had one just come out and say he was an atheist. Ive had many scouts with atheist parents, but they all supported the spirtual side of the program. I can't say for sure how I would respond to a scout admitting he was an atheist. Although Im not one to over react to such things, I am sure I would not give him the out so he could get his prize or to save me from saying no! Like other parts of the program, scouts struggle in, I would counsel him to search for the answer and that he can count on me to stand by him, whatever he decides. But! he needs to feel satisfied with he decision because he will have to live with it forever. I guess for me it's not about the prize of the moment, its about the lasting lasting integrity of making the right choice. I love this scouting stuff. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Eagledad writes: It seems to me Kudu that you basically just told the atheist scout to say "Repeat after me!" to give you the out. Gutless on both your parts. I don't know what that means except that as an obvious example of psychological projection, you suspect yourself of being a coward for some reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection By "explain in their own words," I mean that we usually discuss "natural laws" while we make a campfire, Baden-Powell style. Eagledad writes: I admit that in the many hundreds of scouts I've worked with, I never had one just come out and say he was an atheist. All the young self-defined "atheists" I have met had above average IQs. Maybe they all know better than to talk freely around someone like you, who will accuse them of merely repeating something someone else said ... oh, and accuse them of being "gutless." Most young intellectuals don't crave that drama. Eagledad writes: he needs to feel satisfied with he decision because he will have to live with it forever. That is where you are dead wrong. Young atheists do NOT "have to live with it forever," nor is their position "a decision." Their perspective is tentative: Along the lines of "I don't believe in supernatural shortcuts in the universe, but I'm open to any objective proof you have to offer." They simply object to supernatural claims. The pantheist definition of God as "the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe" fixes that. Once they find a definition of God that does not require intellectual compromise, they become more open to conventional religious ideas. Matthew 15:31-46, for instance, which is a perfect example of Baden-Powell's notion of a secular "Practical Christianity" (Good Deeds done with grubby young hands). http://inquiry.net/ideals/matthew_25_31-46.htm Easy-Peasy at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by kudu) Link to post Share on other sites
JoeBob 606 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 57 posts teeing up a liberal topic, and no Gern? Hmm... I see that Merlyn has checked in, so who else is missing that has the ability to hoist this in our midst? JoeBob - aka - Troll Hunter Link to post Share on other sites
83Eagle 11 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Interesting discussion. I guess I never realized the scout promised to do his duty to gods. Always thought it was just one God. Link to post Share on other sites
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