desertrat77

That's the thing, Wisconsin...scouters at all levels should be willing to help one another, whether they wear beads, or are a candidate for beads, or none of the above. Willingness to serve others should not be dependent on critter affiliation. And there are WBers out there that look at life exactly in that manner--beads or no beads.

Cocomax, your anecdote is a prime example of why new volunteers stay away from BSA training--in droves! Too many BSA trainers are exactly as you described. Of their faults, the chief is not respecting their audience. But they've been to WB...where they learned the innermost secrets of leadership, management, human relations, public speaking, etc. Secrets so profound that their status as bead-wearers allows them the privilege of lording over us uninitiated types. Sure, I'm painting with a wide brush. But I truly think that BSA training demotivates more people than the BSA realizes. The training cadres tend to be full of people that love to hear themselves talk. A small anecdote. I was actually asked to serve on a training staff several years ago. My portion was outside, camping skills, on a beautiful day. We covered the required material, in a give/take/tell me about your experience as parents/scouters/working professionals. We finished 20 minutes early. Right before lunch. So I said "It's a nice day, we have some spare time, enjoy." Folks start conversations, stroll away, looking at clouds and trees, and relax. Another training cadre member happened by and realized I finished early. So she says "Actually, everyone gather round." Trainees gather round. She launches with "How many of you have been to WB? Hands? None? Let me tell you about it." So she did. For 25 minutes.

@cocomax, you are a far braver, stronger scouter than I! There are two things that I cannot sit still for any more: 1. A LNT zealot going on and on. The whole LNT industry contrives to make human contact with nature more and more restrictive. To listen to them, one gets the impression that we humans are so awful, so disgusting, that to protect nature we should just stay home. As a Tenderfoot, I was taught "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints." I think that's LNT in a nutshell. Minus the laminated LNT card packs to hang from one's belt, of course. 2. A WB salesman flogging an audience, "Sure, you may have had leadership training in college and the military, but you really don't know jack until you've taken WB, the life-changin', mountain-top pinnacle of scoutin' leadership training! It will transform your life, your family, your unit, your community, our nation, the world and beyond!" [As we non-WBers wonder "are you sure about that?]

Very true. I was a UC in four different states. Wasn't my first preference for scouting duties, but it gave me the flexibility I needed when I was still on active duty. Whenever I visited a unit for the first time (after calling ahead), I was always greeted like Bigfoot. A blend of suspicion and amazement. "You're the first commissioner to visit us in X years." or my favorite, after they got to know me: "Our last commissioner was a real *&%@#$." I don't mention this because I was a great commissioner. No, far from it. I tried to help as much as I could. Particularly if they needed an extra adult for a campout or something. Some units didn't need the help, others didn't want the help (the UC-as-spy, busybody, knowitall stereotype). Truthfully, if a troop was doing fine, I wasn't needed. I was in the way. It wasn't personal, that's reality. The troops that really needed help, and were receptive, didn't need a UC--they needed a TC or another ASM. Others made no bones about it, they didn't want me anywhere near the unit. As a former ASM and SM, I understood their point of view.

Mac, your words really resonate. I was a shy, clumsy, disorganized scout. I really had to work hard to stay on track and earn the rank. On the trail to Eagle, I was in 3 different troops, with 4 different SMs (post Eagle, add 1 more troop and 3 more SMs). I spent a lot of time reading my handbook, and in my own way, figuring out what to do next. One benefit of the much-maligned 8th edition of the BSA handbook: all of the requirements for all of the merit badges were printed in the back. And unlike present times, National didn't feel the need to constantly change requirements. Collectively, the attitude from my parents and SMs: "It's up to you."

Semi-related reflection: I've been a member on several Eagle boards over the last few years.... Looking back, only a couple of the candidates could really stand on their feet and tell their story. The others were at a loss when asked specifics about their leadership experiences, their project, etc. Even easy/softball-type questions about their experiences on the scouting trail would bring about mumbling and vague answers. Without mom/dad/SM in the room feeding them the answers, they were at a loss. The board wasn't a big event for them, a chance to shine. No. It was just another thing they were told to do. A hurried project finished days before they aged out. It was a given they'd pass. You could tell. "You have to pass them. After all, they've met the requirements!" More than anything, this modern mantra has collectively cheapened the rank any Boy Scout wears, be it Tenderfoot or Eagle. (As well as it's ancillary mantra, "No retesting once they've earned the rank/badge, it's against the rules and just plain mean!")

Being an Eagle is more than checking off requirements on a form. Good judgment and self initiative are vital qualities for achieving anything in life. Many scouts learn early on that a parent or scouter will nag, remind, scold, push, and if necessary, drag them across any goal line. This ultimately hurts the scout, because they'll have to learn some hard lessons at age 18 that they should have gained at 12/13. Too many scouts, of all ranks, have figured out that scouting is adult-directed. They just float along.

Thrifty, alas, it seems many troops nowadays operate that way. Thanks for the link to The Dump, lots of good stuff there!

Excellent question! Patrol time was traditionally utilized in two ways: planning for the troop or patrol outdoor activity that month, or sharpening scout skills that were based on the theme of the month, and the competitive game that followed patrol time. Outdoor activity planning: menu, food list, duty roster, looking over patrol gear for cleanliness/accountability/good repair, arranging transportation, and such. If the event was a camporee, the patrol leader reviewed the camporee package, discussing special requirements, competition, expectations, etc. Patrol leaders were expected to organize all of this, working with the patrol members and their parents. If there was an issue, the PL talked to the SPL. Theme of the month: if the troop's theme for August is first aid, every meeting emphasized a different aspect of FA. If week two the focus was on splinting, the patrol time would be dedicated to practicing splints, because you could count on the fact that as soon as patrol time was over, the patrols would be competing against each other in some kind of splinting contest (time, quality of splint, patrol spirit, etc). My thoughts may be quite dated, but as a patrol leader and then as an SPL, this was how we organized patrol time, and troop meetings. It was difficult for me at first, but once the light came on, it got easier and I learned a great deal. Best wishes.

True.

My hunch: she stopped in for one reason--perhaps to use the restroom, for example--and sized things up right away. Lights on, no one around, nothing locked up. Target of opportunity.

From said website: From "Highlights" tab: " Renovated the conference room, adding overhead projectors and sound...." [With everyone in the conference room, no one could hear the front door open] "Council earned Baltimore Sun’s Top 100 Places to Work recognition" [No doubt those cupcakes sealed the deal! ]

Key phrase that jumps out is "closed door meeting." Probably an "all hands on deck" type of meeting with execs and support staff. Everyone crowded in the briefing room for a long rehash of who knows what. Meeting went far too long...no one posted out front to greet customers...staff forgot to lock doors after meeting went long...Cup Cake Lady sees the light on...etc.

A patrol with two adults supervising it is no longer a patrol. It's a den.

Well said! I've moved around quite a bit in life, and rarely have I seen the many of the super-dedicated-to-training scouters out in the thick of things, be it a backpacking trip or a camporee. There are exceptions, of course, but they were no doubt wired that way before they attended training. For some scouters, attending training and serving on training staffs is their comfort zone. After all, at district/council/national training, there are endless opportunities to make contacts, feather one's nest, hobnob with people higher up in the food chain, collect another geegaw to put on the uniform, lecture unit-level trainees on subjects that they themselves have never done, etc. Even if the trainer has experience/success in the subject they are teaching, many can't resist pontification as they lecture us commoners. I've also noted that if an ultra-training type is associated with a unit, many are surprisingly average or below average in their duty performance at that level. The best unit level scouters I've seen attended the training, got the patch/certificate/beads, and jumped back into the unit and stayed there. Sometimes they serve on a training staff, but the lion's share of their energy is earmarked for the unit.

I agree! I think back to the Baby Boom era. Huge packs, lots of dens. The grand ladies that served as den mothers, and the men who were cub masters, all were superb organizers. Yet very few, if any, had attended WB, or any kind of leadership training outside of their job. (WB back then was a "by invitation only" event.) But the pack ran like a Swiss watch. Without computers, smart phones, email, social media--gasp! Much of the today's "leadership" and "management" training strives mightily to reduce the human/art side the equation, and emphasize the "science" side. This results in the cottage-industry model, where experts tell us painfully obvious things for hours on end. When, in fact, a half-hour of guiding principles and actual work would be more beneficial. Leave No Trace is a good example of this. "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but foot prints" has turned into hours of lecture, dogma, levels of certification, etc.

True. Another part of the foundation was removed years ago: "honor camper." To me, "honor society" is just too generic and doesn't carry the same weight or prestige, especially in an outdoor-focused organizational like the BSA.

When I was a bumbling, unmotivated Tenderfoot, I witnessed a scout receiving his medal at the end of a regularly scheduled troop court of honor. All of the merit badges earned at summer camp were presented (but none for me--I went but didn't earn any that year). Then the ranks...Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class. Fair amount of scouts went up and collected their new patch. Star...Life...only a couple of those. Then the new Eagle was called forward. The lights were dimmed. SM had some meaningful words. Medal pinned on scout. Mom's pin presented. New Eagle said a few words. Ten minutes max. No "Eagle Charge." No "marked man" recitation by the MC. No guest speaker. No form letters with stamped signatures from dignitaries. None of that stuff was needed. That ceremony was so meaningful I can clearly recall many of the little details vividly 40+ years on. I understand that this scenario isn't possible for the case at hand. But it could work just fine for others. It certainly bucks the modern trend for the coronation-style Eagle ceremony.

I recall a simple ceremony...on a very hot night in an un-airconditioned meeting room at Howard Air Force Base, Panama. The MC said a few words. Three of us lined up on one side of a wooden bridge. We walked across. Our new SM put a brand new Boy Scout neckerchief on each of us. We each received a card and the AOL patch. SM said a few words (Mr. Bates was a powerful man and 12 words from him carried more weight than 100 words from others). I couldn't have been more thrilled--Cub and Webelos days were over, a new adventure was about to begin. There was no OA or Native American discussion at the ceremony. For me, that neckerchief and AOL patch represented a transition from little kid to Boy Scout. Nothing more. I'm okay with that. I still have the neckerchief and the card, both faded but still meaningful. As with the Eagle Court of Honor, I think these ceremonies have changed drastically to suit the needs of the adults involved. Ceremonies should be meaningful and possess gravitas. But too many ceremonies today are either poorly planned/sloppy, or over-orchestrated to the point of obnoxiousness.

Otter: "Take it easy, I'm pre-law." Boon: "I thought you were pre-med." Otter: "What's the difference?"

I agree, Perdidochas, excellent point. I wandered by the pit/court a few times each day. Just passing through, listening and observing without being obvious. The scouts picked their own teams, arbitrated as needed, laughed a lot, and went full speed to win everything. From what I could tell, most of teams were a mix of scouts from several troops...teammates they had just met. Rarely was the pit/court empty/quiet. ETA: Many of these scouts were playing all hours of the day, it seemed. Unfortunately, your former ASM's MO is more common today than in years previous--the belief that all scouts, regardless of age, should be treated as cubs. The scouts never get a chance to grow up, lead, have fun, or solve problems if there is always "adult supervision." Then they go to college or join the military--culture shock!

Shortridge, I wish you the best! I'm on a crew committee and serve on the district staff as well. The more I dig into the Venturing literature, the more I discover that National put some serious brainpower into the Venturing program. The possibilities for motivated youth are endless. Alas, much of this potential has gone untapped in my neck of the woods. Crews are few in number. Crew rosters tend to be small. Most of the crew members have little initiative. The only events they tend to be interested in are those planned/executed by someone else. Finding the right advisors to spark initiative is essential. Excellent advice above my post by our fellow forum Scouters. Please keep us posted!

Welcome Jillian! Wearing the knots is your decision, but you are certainly authorized to do so if you wish. I don't think it's pretentious...you earned them and it shows others that you have experience on the Scouting Trail. Good luck with your new adventure!

Excellent points re enjoyment (or lack thereof) and burn out. I think about this every time I drive down a certain turnpike in OK. Along the way, on the outskirts of a town, there is a huge youth baseball/soccer complex. Day and night, the parking lot is full. All of the fields are in use. Rarely do I see the place empty. I reflect back to when my kids were young and involved in sports. They wanted to sign up, but I never detected much joy on their part once the season started. Endless practices. Fees up front and then mandatory candy sales and other fundraisers during the season. Long drives in the mini-van to games. Cranky children doing homework and eating fast food in the back. Weekends spent watching the children play half-heartedly. Obnoxious parents. Coaches acting like every game was the World Series/World Cup/etc. You know the scene. I believe many families are realizing that it isn't worth it. When I was at camp a few weeks ago, I noticed that the gaga ball pit and the basketball court were always in use. I found it interesting that the scouts were competing, definitely trying their best to win, but also having fun. And there was zero adult or staff supervision. The scouts were running their own show. Resolving their own conflict. Competing on their own, without parents and coaches orchestrating everything. I'm sure the scouts benefited in many ways.

[Chasing rabbit....] If we are talking about Camp Rodney, I had the privilege of attending several years ago. Our camp site was near a cliff that overlooked Chesapeake Bay. My tent was right on the edge of the cliff. At night, I kept all of the flaps up, and the most wonderful breeze would waft in from the Bay. Amazing. And a darn good camp, too.