desertrat77

They probably weren't billionaires' sons, but definitely well to do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_Ranch_School (Going from memory as the hour is late)...the Los Alamos Ranch School didn't have many students, but they were well connected if memory serves. BSA uniform was the uniform of the day. Shorts were worn year-round, even in the winter. Lots of outdoor activities. Graduates had to earn at least First Class before receiving their diploma. The ranch was selected by the Army during WWII as a secret base for designing the atomic bomb. Some of the original school buildings remain. There are other links out there with information.

Scouters posted about two dozen pictures on the council's jambo FB page before and during the speech. No specific comments about the speech itself but overall they thought highly of the event.

@@blw2, I too recall the heavy boot era. For my first few trips, I had a pair of Kmart waffle stompers that were like cinder blocks. Strange as it sounds, I wore standard issue GI combat boots at Philmont, a vast improvement over the waffle boots. Not a single blister. Well broken in before the trek. I recall leaders and scouts buying expensive leather boots, thick and heavy, and it taking forever to break them in.

Thanks Colonel Flag, we will take you up on your offer...the Red is close, very close. A Whataburger shake is definitely on the agenda, excellent suggestion! We have one Whataburger in town, it's 60 seconds from the house. And they knock it out the park each and every time.

As I type, I've made myself a crow sandwich. No condiments or trimmings. Just a big fat crow on two pieces of stale white bread. And I'll eat it, feathers and all. I've made several posts on this topic, some of them fall in the category of grandstanding, I'll freely admit. So I have this text exchange with my daughter, this afternoon. You'll see why the crow sandwich was necessary. (Posting with my daughter's blessing): __________ Dad: Question, why do you think girls join or opt not to join Venturing? If the BSA goes coed, do you think more girls would join? Daughter: Girls that do join like the outdoors and scouting itself. Girl scouts is indoors, dead, and unsatisfying. Idk about more girls joining the BSA though. Dad: Why aren't you sure? Daughter: The boys in Boy Scouts are disrespectful, sexual, awkward, vulgar, and overall demeaning towards girls. Venture boys know how to properly interact and be social with girls...cause I can't tell you how many times us girls have been catcalled and made uncomfortable when we have to walk through strictly Boy Scout camp sites. __________ So my crow sandwich was/is well deserved. Nonetheless, I don't think her comments reflect a positive aspect of boys-only troops ("boys need a place to be boys"). I still think that being around girls at an earlier age in scouting would help the boys learn how to properly interact with girls.

Gw, I think BP was referring to boys who grew up in slums and became dissolute ruffians. I'm having trouble envisioning how little girls, racing their pinewood derby cars along the boys, are going to cause the boys to become ne'er-do-wells, ragamuffins, and wastrels.

Colonel Flagg, I'm tracking. As I reflect, the girls in our crew are more interested in the outdoors, leadership and social aspects. They've all stalled out on the rank advancement.

Q, thanks for the kind words for Venture Daughter. I've done my best to stay out of her way and let her experience scouting, the highs and lows (and there have been plenty of both ). She's at the point where she's giving back to scouting as a leader and it's a satisfying thing to observe. You asked an excellent question. One I really had to ponder. This is vague but I'll put it this way. If we asked all of the girls in my daughter's sphere of friendship/influence (high school sports, church youth group, classmates, etc), I'd say 30 percent would be interested, and maybe 15 percent would join right away. Those don't seem like high numbers, based on my past usage of wording in this topic. But I think they are still significant, when we are discussing a possible institutional change, especially one that is as emotional charged as this. It seems the girls that are the most interested in what my daughter does in scouting are generally athletes, strong minded, keep their grades decent or on the upper tier, and tend to be the ones that get things done in life.

Correction to my previous, daughter said crowd was "excited and hushed."

A summary from Jambo venture daughter: she said in general everyone was glad Trump was there, regardless of where they stood on the political spectrum. During his speech she said the crowd was "quiet and hushed." She said that some parts of the speech were more suited for a political rally but the scouts seemed take it with a grain of salt and just went with it. Overall it seems the scouts had a mature outlook. Hey, maybe those three citizenship MBs actually have some payoff!

My daughter didn't say the GSA had problems that needed fixing--rather, the GSA doesn't offer anything remotely resembling what the BSA does. The GSA is under no obligation to do so, because they have their mission, and those that like it join and stay. Don't like the GSA? Then we should find something else to do. I have no issues with that. I guess I'm trying to address the anti-coed argument that "The girls have the GSA, let them go there" and "If they don't like the GSA, change it." It's not an option...the GSA is the GSA, and I don't see them offering a parallel program as mentioned in National's video. We have a large population of girls that want to be a part of the BSA, primarily for the outdoor emphasis. For once, National is trying to get ahead of the inevitable and initiate change that they can control, instead of getting behind the eight ball (like they normally do).

I guess I am still unclear about precisely what awful things are supposed to happen if the BSA goes coed. Yes I've read and done my best to understand arguments to the contrary. What am I missing?

My daughter was there, and confirms your assessment.

That definitely trumps my pack! I had a yucca pack as a scout, but only used it for day hikes. Backpacking...started with a Sears pack that was an ill-designed torture device, '76. Suffered through the Grand Canyon with it. Saved my lawn mowing money and bought a blue Camp Trails external frame pack...went to Philmont the next year. Awesome pack...used it for years. Long gone but not forgotten. Skipping ahead a bit...used another Camp Trails external frame for the aforementioned spring 50 miler this year. Circa '80 model. It really stood out amongst all of the modern internal frames that were on the trail, but it suits me and doesn't show any signs of falling apart.

Blw2, I completely understand...work, family matters, responsibilities, I hadn't put a pack on my back in years. Almost two decades. Then our council offered a 50 miler during spring break this year and I went. It was fantastic! It really put the hook me, and I'm finally making some adjustments to life to backpack more often. Got to admit, I was a little hesitant. I've stayed in shape. Most of my gear now falls into the category of "antique." But it all worked out...even with weather and schedule challenges, we got it done. The only hiccup: my sleeping bag. Top of the line...circa '87. It didn't keep me warm at all in March of 2017 First thing I did when I got home was by a new one!

Eagle, I understand your frustration. But speaking as a former GSA leader, the GSA isn't going to fix anything, because what "we" view as problems, aren't problems to them. The GSA is on a totally different wave length than the BSA. Which is their privilege. But it sure leaves a bunch of girls in limbo who want a BSA-outdoor-oriented program, but have nowhere to go to get it until they turn 14 and become a Venture Scout. So they sit and stew until age 14. I know, as my Brownie daughter realized at the age of 10 what the BSA does. I still remember this conversation with her: Daughter: "I want to be in Boy Scouts." Me: "Sorry kiddo, you have to be 14." Daughter: "We don't do any of this cool stuff in Girl Scouts, I want to quit and join Boy Scouts." Me: "The BSA doesn't allow girls to join until age 14." Pause Daughter: "I've got to wait four years? WHAT A RIPOFF!" So she waited those four years. Not happily, mind you. But she's made up for lost time since. She's at Jambo as we speak, loving it, and sending me quotes from President Trump's speech in near-real time.

Jason, your post made my day, thank you! You can't put a price on memories, and I appreciate you sharing yours.

Outstanding, Frank! When you get a moment, and if you are so inclined, I'd be interested to hear/read your thoughts on the trail, gear, tips, etc.

Though sorely tempted to type a political opinion, I shall refrain. But an observation on personalities, for your consideration. Obama and Trump: two different temperaments. The jambo will be the highlight of Trump's week. He's a good mixer. He'll enjoy himself. Shaking hands, wearing several different scout hats, signing autographs, joshing and shooting breeze with everyone. We rarely saw Obama at these types of venues...not his cup of tea.

Edited: Just re-read Colonel Flagg's note, and have deleted my previous jab at the Army's coordination skills (or lack thereof). The last several years I was on active duty, I had the opportunity to help plan and host distinguished visitors (though none were presidents). Even with the best planning between agencies, hiccups can happen. When one agency makes no effort to work with the others, or they don't do their part, it's a train wreck from the first minute. I think that's what I'm gathering from Colonel Flagg's post.

The beret makes for a good pot holder, too. I've got an old raggedy one that I brought to summer camp this year. Wearing it always brings about a variety of opinions, pro and con. I was pleasantly surprised to meet several scouters from another troop that wore theirs regularly. As we talked about it, it seems we were on the same page. Heritage, eccentricity, and perhaps a bit of humor. Okay, maybe a big dose of humor. You gotta admit, the beret does make statement...for good or ill!

I thought the video and presentation were excellent and both gents were well spoken. I know what the BSA has done for my daughter. She's at the Jambo as we speak. Last year she did NYLT and a 50 miler. Spring she attended Kodiak and had a blast. It hasn't been perfect, admittedly. There have been a few rough spots in the road as with any endeavor. But it's been far more positive than negative. She's become stronger and the BSA has provided her with an avenue for her sense of adventure. Most of her closest friends are associated with the BSA, male and female. All that to say I don't predict the BSA will be harmed if it becomes fully coed. Lots of cubs that aren't interested in crossing over to a troop drop out when they can, and find other interests. I don't see that being any different for either boys or girls. If, in a couple years, girls are allowed to cross from cubs to a boy scout troop, I predict they will be the very girls that want to be in the troop. They'll get with the program and contribute. Will it be the same? No. But it never is. As a scout in the '70's, I still remember finding a mid-60's era scout handbook in an old locker. I was an Eagle, the SPL, in a outdoor-driven troop in Alaska. Then I read that old handbook. Then I got mad. Irate, in fact. I can't use the language to accurately describe just how mad I was as this is a family-oriented forum. Why? I felt like I'd been ripped off. I wanted to be in the BSA of yesteryear! Not the one I'd grown up in. As I compared my ISP scout handbook to the old one, I found myself longing for a BSA that no longer existed. It wasn't till many years later that I realized that while the BSA had changed the handbooks and uniforms and requirements, I was nonetheless a lucky beneficiary of traditional scouting. Because my unit level scouters created the environment where I could have similar experiences as those old scouts back in the day. The recipe for successful scouting hasn't and won't change. Each unit will chart its own course. It all takes place at the unit level. And it always will. In today's day and age, that's good news.

(Retired military guy typing....) For military, there are very few exceptions where hats/covers are worn indoors (escorting prisoner, or in formation, etc.). Ninety nine percent of the time, the hat comes off swiftly, right at the threshold of the door. Regardless of branch of service, basic training instills the no-hat-indoor habit in a very forceful, life-long, unambiguous manner... Though I've been retired for a couple years, this habit remains. I don't correct scouts or scouters, though...to each their own. But I can always spot another vet by how quickly they remove their hat at the threshold.

'Schiff, I think those women are out there...more of them might be inclined to join the BSA if there is a change. In my small part of the world, and other places I've been, there are two obstacles for the outdoorsy women: 1) they aren't always welcome or respected, and b) programming is often sedentary/low speed/car camping oriented.

When I was a JASM, my SM considered me an adult, even if I wasn't technically by age. Duties, behavior, decision making. Spent more time with the adults than the scouts. Went to adult training, RT etc. Learned a heck of a lot about scouting and was even better prepared for life after high school. One of the best jobs I had in scouting. Superb mentorship.