desertrat77

There is a definite trend over the last couple decades, call it "over-recognition" for lack of a better phrase. We have milestones in life. Meaningful ones. But we need a brass band every time we achieve something? Example: my wife was a kindergarten teacher. We went round and round on the "need" for a graduation ceremony for kindergarteners. My position is "What are they graduating from?" The over-recognition trend has hit the BSA too. Many of these mementos and ceremonies primarily meet the parents' needs and wishes. I think the scouts would be satisfied with things that are simple and meaningful.

As long as the cub program is these days, leaving the pack and joining a troop should be reward enough. For me, the AOL patch was the highlight. As a bonus, Mr. Bates, my first SM, greeted me on the other side of the cross over bridge and and presented me with an official yellow neckerchief. Forty plus years later, I still have it.

@DwightS, welcome to scouter.com, excellent question. PS Please take time to acquaint yourself with rules and policies of scouter.com https://www.scouter.com/forum/13-forum-support-announcements/

I agree, @MattR. It would be nice to see execs swing an axe, carry a pack on a 50 miler, paddle a canoe, or stir a dutch oven stew over an open fire. The BSA's collective image runs towards a) corporate and b) indoors. To be fair, I'm sure there are execs who would love to get outdoors more but their duties won't permit it. A sad state of affairs for an organization whose primary selling point is "outdoor adventure."

@RookieScouter, welcome to the forums!

Long story short, I think the Improved Scouting Program of '72 is the primary culprit. It tried to revamp the entire BSA, and not for the better. Any thing "outdoors" went on the back burner. I may have mentioned it already in this or another thread like it, when I earned the camping MB in '76 the border of the badge had the "not-required" thread color.

I'm not recommending looking the other way, simply to let him take his medicine and move forward. Not to split hairs but the rock formations took millions of years to form. The bullfrogs will hopefully reproduce.

@roljers, welcome to the forums.

@The Latin Scot, please don't take offense, but I have a slightly different definition of "scandal".... As retired military, I'll admit my definition was formed (warped?) over the years from dealing with wayward GIs, many of whom went out of their way to execute spectacular feats of stupidity, sometimes on an international level. I'll refrain from citing examples because this is a family-oriented forum. Bear killing and eating a bullfrog was ill-advised but forgivable. As others have stated, though Bear does peculiar and showy things at times, he performs a greater good. Besides, we don't have a deep bench of outdoor-minded, rugged men and women in Scouting that could step up and replace him. The sedentary bent of modern Scouting is not helping the cause.

Forty two years ago.... We mostly worked. As @MikeS72 well said, it was still fun, even the work weekends. Conclaves and the '79 NOAC were enjoyable. Looking back, I think the prime motivator for me was OA camaraderie, rather than an emphasis on fun. Quiet pride. To make the cut at the troop level, complete a difficult ordeal, and associate with like-minded honor campers whose outlook was "give the us the tough jobs", that to me was more important than fun. To be around those types of scouts and scouters made me strive to be a better camper and leader. Taking on the dirty jobs that no one else wanted to do became a habit that helped me quite a bit in adult life.... "...seek to preserve a cheerful spirit, even the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities...." It's amazing how often I still remind myself of these words. The OA could readopt the old criteria. If it wanted to.

Same here.... "Howard AFB" for city and "CZ" right below it...I have the raggedy originals from my cub uniform.

Spot on!

I agree, remove those age restrictions and let adults learn/earn. Get on the trail, build a fire, cook a pot of stew in a dutch oven, sleep under the stars. Good for all concerned.

Up until the '72 Improved Scouting Program, BSA visionaries included Beard, Seton, Powell, as well as Goodman and Edson with the OA...all with naturalist or outdoorsman credentials. After '72, we see the outdoors relegated to a much lower priority at the national level. If scouting is presented as sedentary, consisting of meetings, seminars, and merit badge fairs, we can find just about anyone to run those. Vision doesn't really factor into it.

@VWThing, great finds! Re the shorts: I've got several pairs of that style. All from ebay, very cheap. Varying colors and pocket schemes from the '80s and '90s. They wear like iron! Good for hot weather situations, dust, dirt, cooking bacon, whathaveyou. PS Added: I wear these shorts in all kinds of weather and outdoor scenarios, not caring what happens to them nor treating them with any kindness. Thus far, none have failed. The only limiting factor so far is carrying a comb in the backpocket. Something about the comb and the square shape of the pocket lends to the comb eventually puncturing the pocket seam.

On ebay I found a new long sleeve centennial shirt for 15 dollars. This is my outdoor shirt to use/abuse. So far, so good. I wish there were long sleeve Venture shirts. I've looked for the old green Explorer shirts, but all I can find are small sizes.

RS, thanks! Any confusion is strictly my own (old age, laziness, poor reading comprehension, lack of coffee)

I'm relieved you said that. I thought it was just me. Tried to read it but gave up and skimmed it. Seemed like a lot of in-house squabbling. But to sell those paintings...painful to think about. They depict what scouting is really all about.

Eagle, my ramblings aside, I forgot to say this in my previous: you've handled this entire situation as a true gentleman and scouter, with much more dignity and patience I could have mustered had I been in your boots. It's difficult to see a troop struggle, especially one we've invested so much in.

What @qwazse said! Definitely help the SPL and the scouts. But the others? Take out your handy dandy Official Boy Scout Pocketknife and cut that rope and let them drift away. Life is too short. Folks like that will never, ever say "Gosh, I see your point of view." Sparing you the long story, I was an ASM in a troop in the '80s, and we had a similar parent. I recognize the vibe. She drove our SM up the wall. Endless letters and meetings never accomplished anything positive. She thrived, everyone else was demoralized.

Mash, I think you are on to something great! From the MOP site: "What do we mean by peace? Scouting defines peace as more than just the absence of war. In terms of the MOP initiative, peace encompasses three dimensions: The personal dimension: harmony, justice, and equality The community dimension: peace as opposed to hostility or violent conflict Relationships between humankind and its environment: security, social and economic welfare, and relationship with the environment" https://www.scouting.org/international/messengers-of-peace/faqs/ More naps = more world peace Edited to add: I'll admit I was in a bad mood when I read the agenda for this particular PH. Though I'm not in that council, I see closer to home too many events that are billed as outdoor that have too many indoor elements. Serving meals to the scouts instead of having them cook their own over a fire, jambo style camping elbow to elbow in a huge wilderness area vice spreading out by troop and patrol, etc.

Mr. K, I definitely see your point. Most of the activities are look/listen/semi-sedentary. Or as you mentioned, a rehash of summer camp. I've never done Powder Horn, but I think the activities should be difficult. In the boonies. Where the participants have to reach down deep. Far away from base camp. Alas, this is what passes for high adventure in many parts of the BSA. The scouts are missing out. From the course director's guide: "Powder Horn is a resource course designed to introduce Scouting’s adults and youth to the exciting high-adventure program possibilities for their unit. The course supports the mission of strengthening units so they can achieve the mission of the Boy Scouts of America." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/Powderhorn_syllabus.pdf Okay, so far so good. But then we leap into suggested activities, such as "outdoor ethics/leave no trace" Groan. Paint drying time. "As a result of this session, each participant should be able to ■Discuss the impacts associated with Scouting’s outdoor program. ■Explain the umbrella term “BSA outdoor ethics” and its components. ■Recite and explain the Outdoor Code. ■Explain the seven principles of Leave No Trace. ■Demonstrate knowledge of where to find additional outdoor ethics resources and trainings"

Eagle, at the risk of repeating what someone else said: You owe no explanation. And anything you provide will be a) twisted in meaning by the parents and b) viewed as encouragement for further engagement. People like the parents in question thrive on toxicity. Yes, it's cathartic to type it all out. But to actually send anything rational? It's a hill not worth taking. You'd be throwing your pearls to the swine. Recommend no reply at all, or a short reply such as "I wish you the best in all of your future endeavors."

Fire making and wood tool skills are fast becoming extinct in the BSA, unfortunately.

I would participate, definitely. Two years ago, I was asked to serve on a council committee. I said yes. I like the idea of asking the old timers. They know a lot and are often overlooked. Requirements may have changed since they were in the game, but they can learn the new ones quickly enough. The qualities that made them successful leaders in the past still translate to today.