desertrat77

Thanks Shortridge! I agree, there are lessons for the BSA to draw from. - High costs alienating many families - Organizational myopia - De-emphasizing competition

LOL Oldscout, I'd forgotten about that...the hidden candy bar...the oldest trick in the book! Hence the weather eye during shake down, as you mentioned. I recall taking a ground cloth, sleeping bag (Kmart's best, 8 lbs or so in weight) and a knife.

It's been a few years, but if memory serves, there will be a gear shake-down when the candidates show up. Right before the ordeal formally starts. So if your son is allowed to take the rain fly, great. If not, he'll be asked to leave it behind. In which case, the ground cloth can be folded over the top of the sleeping bag, providing some shielding from the rain. Re communication or lack thereof, I understand completely. As a youth, I was our lodge's publications chairman (and committee, a one-scout team). Even considering today's technology, I think we were just as well informed back then with mailed memeograph letters once a month and lots of phone calls--perhaps better.

I'm a little confused (my usual condition).... Was the scout addressing a) scouters wearing too many geegaws and gimcracks in an unauthorized or unseemly manner, thus rendering them "out of uniform" in his opinion or b) scouters wearing the camp t-shirts? If it's A, then I'd say leave it be. Truly "slippery slope" time. Are we going to prohibit saluting if someone is wearing incorrect socks but is otherwise in correct uniform? If B, and it's the cub day camp t-shirt, I think a salute is fine. That was their "uniform" for the week. As a retired military guy, I've seen unit morale plummet because of over-strict local uniform policies. And then there is the matter of enforcement. Who is going to walk up to Mr. Long Term Scouter and say "Hey old man, your uniform looks like a Scout Shop threw up on it--no salute for you!"* For the record, I'm definitely in the anti-geegaw category. *I'm sure there are some that would...but not me. I'll go toe to toe on other issues...but not uniforming.

Barry, good estimate, I was 13/14 during the Great Citizenship MB Completion Campaign! You are correct, had I waited a year or two, I might have had a different viewpoint on the whole thing. Still, I think @RememberSchiff 's point is valid, one big Citizenship MB would be more than enough. Regarding family scout/camping, I believe it can work given the right parameters. I saw it in action about 10 years ago, in a small rural council in the Deep South. After a 17 year hiatus from scouting, I volunteered at a spring camporee. The troops were camped in a big field, and conducted their events further away in the woods. Some parents and siblings camped nearby. I didn't see any helicoptering and very little mingling. In fact, the families were quite content to just relax in their neck of the woods and let the scouts do their thing. The only times everyone was together: opening/closing flag ceremonies, closing campfire, and chapel. I was doubtful at first, but later impressed as the weekend went on. It was truly a community event. Small siblings watching the flag being raised and lowered by the Boy Scouts. Parents laughing at the old corny skits. Sisters wearing their Girl Scout vest, saluting during the flag ceremonies. There was a flag retirement ceremony at the closing campfire. And there were a bunch of old flags. Everyone, including the smallest kids, joined in to help. I'm sure these experiences made an impression on those young children.

The Improved Scouting Program required scouts to earn MBs early. I recall having to earn 1 MB for Tenderfoot, 2 for Second Class, and a total of 5 for First Class (two of which had to be First Aid and Citizenship in the Community). Plus some skill awards. While I agree that many schools aren't teaching much these days, I don't think the BSA should feel obligated to pick up the slack. There is already too much time spent scribbling reports and listening to lectures while sitting on benches that would be better spent hiking, canoeing and swinging an axe. Scouts don't sign up for homework. Most want to camp and have fun with their friends. Once they earn First Class and grow up a bit, those homework MBs might be of interest to them. Or maybe not but they'll grit their teeth and earn them anyway. Though it's been 40+ years, my memory of earning the three Citizenship MBs is still unvarnished by nostalgia or fondness. The phrase "pure drudgery" is still apt. Here is a rare bit of praise for the long-departed and not-missed skill awards: the content of the Citizenship and Community Living skill awards was perfectly sufficient.

I'm a minimalist. I have a shirt that I bought new in '85 that finally gave out. (Plus I'm heavier now). Definitely got my money's worth from that one. Now I try to only buy things on sale or used. Slowly working towards fewer patches. "Newer" shirts don't have OA flaps or "Trained" patches (heresy!). One knot instead of four. No service stars. No pins of any kind. No neckerchief. No unit or district excellence patches. Nothing around the world scout emblem.

Indeed! If my math is right and Joni's newborn was a boy, he's probably an SPL/Life Scout by now.... I hope they are well. Time flies!

Searching the gray cells.... As a Cub in the Panama Canal Zone, I wore the shorts, knee socks and yellow garters. Everyone else did and we didn't think anything of it. Moving to Arizona as a Boy Scout, we wore long pants. A few adults wore shorts, long socks, and green garters. Not many. When I'm roaming the desert, I like the protection that long pants and heavy boots provide. Leadership Corps...I was never a member, but I sure wanted to be. By the time I was eligible, it was already fading away. They wore the dark green shirt with the LC patch where the patrol patch would go. All wore long pants. Both in Arizona, for the reasons mentioned before, and in Alaska, because the mosquito is the State Bird.

Great stories, thanks all! The big experiences were great, but it is the subtle ones that mean the most to me now. My second camporee. Southern Arizona desert grasslands. Friday night it rained buckets but finally let up. We had a fire going, with a deep bed of glowing coals. One of the scout's dad was helping out that weekend, a very decent gent. We stayed by the fire and chatted while most of the others turned in. I'll never forget his kindness and willingness to talk with a newbie Tenderfoot. My first year on camp staff in Alaska. I was assigned to the rifle range. I was expected to get to the range first each day. I always hiked there by myself. Those early morning walks through the wet birch forest. Quiet. Delicious smell of vegetation. Peaceful. Thirty minutes till everyone else showed. I'd get everything set up and have time to enjoy the tranquility. The celebratory feast after completing my Ordeal in '76.

Buggie, thanks for the great report. I have just returned from camp as well. Looks like we went to different camps but interesting that several of your observations hit home.... Three of our scouts are chomping at the bit to be on staff. One was accepted, the other is working on the application. Another is going to apply next summer. Sad to say, a scout we've know for years has started down the wrong path. His home life has always been awful. Scouting was the one positive aspect in his life for several years. Good heart, not an overachiever, but definitely tried hard to contribute. However, he's about to age out and now he's acting up. Comments, language, bullying, attitude, actions. SM and I had several long talks with him. He admitted his behavior was wrong but insisted he didn't have any self control. We didn't coddle or kid him, we told him the stark reality of his situation. "When you turn 18, this behavior will land you in jail or in a bar with a knife stuck in your gut." (Sounds harsh but with the life he's living outside of scouting, these things could happen.) He agreed, but kept circling back to the inevitability of bad things happening to him. Worrisome. Underwater basket weaving--an actual camp activity! At the waterfront! I didn't sign up. Arts/crafts were not my cup of tea as a scout. When I strolled by I noticed everyone was soaking in the water (non-swimmer area, the heat was brutal) but their baskets rarely hit the H2O. As I get older, camping in high humidity is becoming more difficult. Many hours of bright sunlight, heat, humidity, and not a wisp of a breeze. Trees and flags drooping. But we carry on! I'll admit to bringing a battery operated fan for sleeping. I too found that my swimming ability suffered quite a bit, mostly due to lack of practice. SPL did an outstanding job. We had several new Scouts that had just crossed over. For a few, this was not only their first summer camp, but their first Boy Scout camping experience. Our SPL kept them on track. These new Scouts got with the program immediately and did quite well. Lots of lost stuff. Even the older scouts. "Mr Desertrat, have you seen my phone/backpack/scout shirt/necklace/shoes/towel/etc." Me: "Sorry, I haven't, but I'll keep my eye out for it." One scout stopped me in front of the trading post. "Have you seen my shoe?" He's wearing one shoe but just a sock on the other. I gave my stock answer but thought: how do you lose a shoe at the trading post? At what point did he notice it was missing? He found it eventually. As the years march by, I understand more and more why summer camp is so important. Not only for scouts, but scouters as well.

Joe Bob, I'm tracking. My dad was a career helicopter mechanic in the Air Force. The belt from his fatigue uniform was blue, and it had the same effect. When I joined the AF several years later, I thought about it every time I put on my own fatigues or later, BDUs. Same style belt! PS Thanks for your kind words.

Matt, you raise a good point. As a youth, I too was in hot water most of the time. School, church, scouting. I was punished quite a bit, and frankly, deserved all of it and more That background has helped. When I'm working with scouts and trouble makers make their presence known, I have a pretty good idea of how to deal with them. My mind's eye can envision 12 year old Desertrat acting the fool. As you said sometimes that "more gentle approach" doesn't work and you have to tell them how the cow eats the cabbage. A little wire brushing is good for the soul. Other times I've found that sitting down with another adult and the scout in question for a chat helps them figure out why they are acting up. I was the beneficiary of both tactics as a youth.

Congratulations Brian, and best wishes for success in medical school! A quick anecdote about a "last" MB...I was on camp staff right before I turned 18. A couple days before my birthday, I decided to earn the Basketry MB. For most, it's their first MB or right near the top row on the sash. I don't remember what my issue was, except I preferred to spend all of my time and money at the archery or rifle ranges during my first two summer camps. I completed it but my buddy in the handicraft section said my basketry skills were pretty sorry. Good enough to be signed off but certainly nothing to write home about. That's what friends are for!

Helpful, you sparked some memories.... My very first canteen was an aluminum copy of the GI style. I was darn proud of that thing. Dented, scratched, ugly, but it still worked. It got lost during a move years ago. For a few years I carried a real GI steel/aluminum canteen, date stamped 1945. It was tough as nails.

For many years, I carried two 1 qt green GI plastic canteens. If they are GI-proof, they are scout-proof. I just carried water in the canteens, and used a wide-mouth plastic bottle from the grocery store to mix that old fashioned sugary lemon ice tea powder (tasty). Last year I bought my first wide-mouth Nalgene water bottle. I really like it. Now I have several and seem to be on the verge of collecting more than I actually need. Used bladders/camelbaks in the military. I understand their appeal, but I found that maintenance was a pain (or perhaps I'm just lazy). And I'm a firm believer in keeping things as simple as possible.

LOL, Buggie, I went through Amarillo last fall going to PASS. Picturesque? Well, it has grown quite a bit, I'll say that much. And the Wendy's by the highway serves a darn fine double cheeseburger. I feel a bit guilty, knowing the Joad's didn't enjoy such fare, but I'll think of them the next time I have one. Smokey will probably need some rest/recuperation/health/morale/welfare leave when this is all over....

Our original start date was this Saturday. All south country. We have had one slight adjustment since my last post. Still going at the end of July, but the itinerary was bumped by one number...we are still going to the south country, but by luck of the draw the new one is the crew's original number one choice anyway. It includes Phillips and the Tooth. My crew advisor said the Philmont staff has been wonderful working with him on our options. I concur, it's a business. I too am expecting crowded trails, camps, and chow lines in base camp. But I think the camaraderie will be great. We were all going...and then we weren't...and then we are going again! I imagine we'll have lots of stories to tell and some laughs about various inconveniences, lingering smoke, etc.

Our crew advisor received a call from Philmont today. Long story short, our new trek date is the latter part of July. Same itinerary--for now. Even if we're hiking through ashes, and programming is reduced to nothing, we're still going! Gladly! PS Added: sounds bizarre, I know. I was looking forward to going this summer. The cancellation and second chance to go all the more highlighted my motivation to go back. Plus, we live nearby. We just have to throw our packs in the Hudson Super Six, and we're there pretty quick. For those of you coordinating airline/train/bus transportation, you have my deepest respect.

I agree. It had to be a tough decision for them to make. Many plans, dreams, and dollars at stake. But that fire is still too darn big to risk pressing forward with the original schedule.

Our trek was cancelled as well. One benefit about living in Oklahoma--Philmont is within driving distance. Travel arrangements are pretty straightforward. A convoy of trucks and minivans and we're set. We cancelled some hotel and campground reservations. No problems there. So now we'll wait and see. I have flexibility with my job to go later in the summer, if we get the opportunity. But I imagine those last weeks are going to be pretty darn crowded.

Yes Sir, I'm tracking, thanks for the nudge! It's going to be interesting....

Brian, I think you've got the right outlook. Give him the tools and be available if he has questions or needs a sounding board. Otherwise, step back and let him lead. It's been awhile, but I recall how my troop handled this when I was a scout. ASPL and the SPL worked closely for 2 years. Then when the SPL moved to JASM, the ASPL stepped up and was more than ready. One of my jobs as the newest JASM was to quietly advise the SPL, provide feedback, etc. The toughest thing: give the new SPL room to fail at times. Also difficult: being able to admit "he isn't doing things the way I did...it's not wrong...just different." Thanks for serving as SPL, it's not an easy job but it's an important one. JASM is a new opportunity. In my troop, the adults considered the JASM to be an adult. I was expected to attend adult leader training, committee meetings, roundtables, etc. They dealt with me as if I were a grown man, and expected me to conduct myself as such. Also camped with the adults and visited with them over the week regarding troop management (this was many years before YPT guidelines). It was a great job and helped me prepare for "the real world."

Despite National's somewhat poor management of the change (especially the PR aspect), I'm in favor it. Two reasons. One, when I was a scout and the first coed effort started in the mid 70s, I listened to the scuttlebutt around the campfire at several camp outs. I shrugged my shoulders and thought if the BSA went coed, I'd be fine with it. Two, I see what the BSA has meant to my Venturing age daughter. Personal growth and strong, positive friendships. Outdoor adventure. I wish she had the opportunity previous to age 14 to experience what the BSA has to offer, but I'm counting my blessings nonetheless. Background: Cub scout, 71 - 74, Bobcat to Arrow of Light. Boy Scout, 74 - 81, Tenderfoot to Eagle. APL - JASM. OA: Ordeal 76. Brotherhood 78. Vice lodge chief. Attended 79 NOAC. Adult years: ASM, SM, UC, district committee member, crew committee, etc. High adventure: four 50 milers. Training: everything required to do whatever job I'm assigned to. I have not attended WB, nor do I have any desire to do so.

Interesting theory, I'll ponder it more (I've got a 2-hour drive today). Hollywood has produced nothing but dreck for about three decades now. A few good movies might slip through now and again. Not even that many. Overall theaters offer nothing but CGI-run-amok, reheated leftovers, mind-numbing sequels, cardboard-cut-out characters, and social justice preaching. Star Wars is a good example. I have fond memories of the first Star Wars (as in real-world chronological first) because our troop was on the way to Philmont. Overnighting at Kirtland AFB, Albuquerque NM, we had a great meal at a Mexican restaurant. Off the cuff we drove to a theater and found seats just as the movie was starting. The movie was good. It didn't change my life. But I enjoyed it. I'm impressed now because I had never heard of the movie before I bought a ticket to see it. Movie advertising was more humane back then. So I go see the sequel a few years later. That was enough Star Wars for me. Saw part of III at friend's house and found an excuse to leave early. To each their own. Comparing the BSA and SW...I'd say brand-fatigue has set in. For both. For Star Wars, how much more can be said about The Force, etc.? Even in the early sequels, they had to resort to soap-opera plot devices to pad out the script. The BSA's brand fatigue is different. It's not even "fatigue." Since 1972, there has been a concerted effort within scouting to SIDELINE the outdoor element of scouting. Red berets. Twenty four MBs required for Eagle and yet camping wasn't one of them (74ish - 81ish). STEM. Soccer. Indoor Wood Badge. Which is interesting because outdoor adventure is timeliness. It's truly "The Force" for the BSA, but the BSA has tried to minimize it over the years (until recently). While I'm in favor of coed scouting, I respect the opinions of those who aren't. I don't have a well-honed rationale for my position. All I know is that when the coed discussion started when I was a scout, young Desertrat shrugged his shoulders and thought it would be okay. Years later, I saw how the BSA helped my Venture daughter grow, and the enjoyment and friendships she has gleaned from her outdoor adventures. I think the BSA realized they had to do "something" so coed is it. Too many lawsuits, huge drops in money and membership, too much wasted effort on products/services that had nothing to do with the outdoors...it all caught up with National. That said, I have found National's roll out of the coed program to be artless at times. Clumsy. They should have hired a real PR firm to handle it. And made the program more like the BSA circa '55.