desertrat77

Point taken. Instead of CSE, let's offer Mike Rowe the Chief Scout title. I may have the exact wording of the title wrong, but it's a public/good will/ambassadorial type of job. It's hasn't been filled by the BSA in years, if memory serves from prior threads. Either way, I don't think the BSA would offer him the job for the same reason I mentioned in my previous post.

I was fortunate to be on camp staff in Alaska...the green uniform pants worked best. Mosquitoes galore and chilly, rainy days most of the week. One of the staffers wore the shorts/knee socks in spite of it all, but he was a bit eccentric by nature anyhow.

Hi, I'm Desertrat, and I'm an ISP survivor! Wore the infamous red beret. Camping merit badge earned fair and square, but had the non-required border color. Earned the mandatory amount of skill awards to progress, only eight if I recall, but dang they were noisy. Scout handbook had little outdoor material. Written on a third grade level. Eagle in 77. The old time scouters guided us through the valley of the shadow of the ISP. Sure, we wore funky threads, endured bad literature from National, but we got the old program.

G, Mike Rowe would be an outstanding CSE. Unfortunately, he'll never be selected. Not in a million years. Why? He'd upstage everyone at HQ in Irving. Without even trying.

The old-time scouters always inspired me when I was a scout. Many of them were the best outdoorsmen in the unit. And some could still out-hike and out-cook anybody. Even those that could not longer physically handle the stress/strain of a heavy pack, long miles on the trail, or camp life, I still respected their years of experience, their personal example, and their stockpile of great scouting stories. Seeing them in their old uniforms, clean and neat but with clear evidence of wear and tear from the field...their patches and emblems from a long-gone era...they never ceased to impress me. Because they still believed in scouting.

Mike Rowe mentioned the epic British Bulldog battles at his troop meetings.... Troop 190 at Elmendorf AFB Alaska, we played BB as well. But outside and tackle, vice indoor and lift. Same result though, a heck of a lot of fun. One my troops in Arizona raised Steal the Bacon (always indoors) to a form of warfare. Full contact! We scouts loved these games. Even the non-athletic kids joined in and did the best they could. [Edit: reflecting...I can't recall a single scout that asked not to play.] Sure, scouts got hurt, but not badly. If you just got knocked flat on your back, or received a hip check that sent you bouncing off the wall of the scout hut, no problem. Dust off that uniform, straighten your neckerchief, smile and acknowledge the razzing the other scouts were giving you, and GET BACK IN THE GAME. Sure, the games were important. But it turns out, the games provided more than recreation. Life lessons. Still...doggone those were fun times.

[Rmeints, my sarcasm below isn't directed at you, but at the status quo of the BSA today....] So those grand gents, including BP himself, grilled Arthur for several hours. And--gasp--they RETESTED his scout skills! The horror, the horror.... Didn't Arthur already have a card or a piece of paper showing that he was signed off on those skills, thus exempting him from any future retest should a bunch of old mean guys demand it? What about his feelings? What about his stress level? Surely they provided him regular breaks and a compassion puppy. Perhaps a cry room? Did his mother intervene and threaten legal action? So the board didn't just look at his documentation the day before, shrug their collective shoulders, and say "well, he's technically meet all of the requirements, I guess we have to pass him." No. The board put Arthur through the wringer, and he passed with flying colors. How the world has changed.

I'd say Mitt is an exception. From what hear and read, most top-tier execs would rather not lead non-profits, volunteer-heavy organizations, and the like. For any amount of money. Very little actual authority to enact change, too much red tape, too many headaches. I'm still not understanding the moral/value point.

I don't agree with the morally bankrupt part, but for the sake of argument: During the next round of hiring, pay more and attract top-tier talent. Then they do their best to right the ship. Of course, there is no 100 percent guarantee, except for the opposite: pay less, hire execs less talented, and membership will continue to decline.

At this level, you get what you pay for.

I agree! One of the very best scouters in our district is not an Eagle. He is the motivational force behind a pack, a troop and a crew. He wears several hats at the district level too, including FOS and coordinating all of our projects and boards for Eagle. He has a chest full of Eagle mentor pins. His scouting experience as a youth? Two months in Webelos.

Very true. I also like their approach of the women being identified as "Girl Scouts" and not utilizing the false exclusivity of Gold Award only, like the BSA does with Eagle ("Four Eagle Scouts playing in the ___________ Bowl.") I think the Cookie Syndicate funds their PR function pretty well.

Brian, I don't have specific solutions, others will no doubt offer great ideas that work. Even if the stain doesn't wash out completely, continue to wear that shirt anyway. As long as the uniform is "clean, dry and serviceable" it's alright. Scout uniforms should have a bit of "character."

Absolutely. Some scouts could manipulate the beret to make it look like special forces, but it was still just a red beret. Most of us looked like a bunch of wandering poets, with the thing perched on our head any which way. Skill awards: I earned the bare minimum required. Retired them as soon as I bought my Philmont leather belt.

Yes! I'd forgotten about that...thank you!

Agreed. Ranking up enlistees: sure, it's a pay boost, having one or two stripes more than the rest of the slicksleeves. But a new enlistee is a new enlistee. They are still learning the ropes. In those early months after boot camp, the only advantage of having one or two stripes is possibly being in charge of the litter detail/GI party/sandbag filling detail instead of being just a member thereof. Oh, and here's your mop, Mr. E-3 I'm in Charge. Builds character.

I crossed over in '74, just as the "Improved" Scouting Program was rolling. Endured the red beret, the anemic scout handbook, and National's frantic attempt to hamstring the outdoor program. Later in that august decade, Green Bar Bill wrote the new handbook and the BSA got a reprieve from the astounding lameness of ISP. That said, I still received an old-school scouting experience during those years. My scoutmasters grit their teeth, shielded us from the more obnoxious elements of the ISP, and focused on traditional, outdoor-oriented scouting. If I could turn back the clock, I'd go back and thank them. I didn't realize at the time what they had done for us. PS The red beret worked pretty darn good as a pot holder on campouts.

Gblotter and Jameson, I envy you the Nixonian impact. My card bears Jimmy Carter's signature. Doesn't make quite the same impression.

It's been four years since I retired from the military. Reflecting on my last several years on active duty, I can safely say it was a crap shoot when sizing up new enlistees that claimed to be Eagle. Frankly, some were pretty sorry specimens. Too many by my reckoning. Lacking in self-motivation, physical fitness, professionalism, learning ability, resilience, ability to get along with others, etc. Yet they usually possessed a false sense of achievement and entitlement. These guys were dragged across the finish line by somebody. Others were clever and knew it. Barely concealed conceit. Game players. Their chief motivation was not so much service, but the next stripe, award, medal. Usually at the expense of others. Thankfully, many others were squared away. True Eagles. But far fewer in number than in previous decades.

As ya'll have said, the push for numbers by National is the problem. Looks good to the general public, even if others know the foundation is weak. It's the "expansion team" theory in action. More players, more teams, more dollars! But the talent pool is diluted, quality of play on the field/rink/court is diluted, fans get bored, and the league suffers in the long run.

Vertical zip shirt front pockets...are females really going to carry a topo map and a couple cliff bars in those particular pockets? The entire effort seems over-engineered and stylistically odd. Definitely look forward to hearing what women have to say about it. I'll ask my Venturing daughter what she thinks. My initial hunch: girls are going to just buy a boy's shirt, a size or two larger, and go with that.

I can't resist! A few changes for me: - Sonoran desert of Southern AZ - Patrol member Brian: weighed probably 70 pounds. Carried a full pack. When we got to camp, he extracted three giant coffee-table size books, all on aviation history, from this pack. We kidded him about it all weekend. He also demonstrated his gastronomical prowess by eating a giant can of beans (cold) and several peanut butter sandwiches. By himself. For dinner. - Our patrol (Fox) was comprised mostly of newbies. So the senior scouts appointed our campsite in an area with a lot of fine dust. We built our lean to atop the area with the most fine dust. Which we proceeded to inhale in each breath. And it seasoned all meals. Made perfect sense at the time. - Though the senior scouts inspected patrol dish washing results with great zeal and little tact, we discovered they did not hold themselves to the same standard. Because we had a big troop (five patrols, eight scouts each) there was always excess gear in the scout hut. The senior scouts brought extra aluminum patrol cook kits, used them, and buried them instead of washing them. Even we Tenderfoot scouts thought this to be bad form. Somewhere in the desert around Tucson, I could take you to the burial site of several cook kits. Don't worry, it's not worth the trouble. Mr. P, our scoutmaster, always bought the cheapest overseas knock-off cook kits. Junk. Burial was probably the best thing.

Jam, the tone we set as leaders will make the difference. Either way. The scouts will pick it up in an instant. I understand it will be difficult for some folks. And yes, I have had to take my own medicine over the decades. Example: the Order of the Arrow. Sure, I'll rant here at scouter.com on how the OA bears little resemblance to the grand brotherhood of honor campers that it once was. Nonetheless, I pay my dues, positively support those enjoy OA, and focus on other duties in the BSA that I fully support. In public, I keep my attitudes and comments about the OA to myself. The day I can't keep myself in check, is the day it's time to do something else in the community.

Re pizzas and burgers, let me clarify. If a business doesn't offer a product, you can't force them to. Even if it would help the business. It's their business, their decision. I was a Brownie co-leader for 1 year, and I can assure you that the majority of GSA leaders were fine with their program just the way that it was. And any time I introduced BSA-type games and activities into the program, the Brownies loved it. The GSA adult leaders? Frosty silence and disapproval. Girls are supposed to do arts and crafts, and sit quietly while an adult reads a book to them. I kid you not. And let's not forget the Great Annual Cookie Sale Racket. Ugh. Given the chance, the change will work. Exhibit A is the story that RememberSchiff posted about the Girl Rangers from the early '70s. These girls did not want to change the BSA. They wanted to be a part of it and accept the challenges. How can that be described as anything but success?

This change almost happened over four decades ago. For a variety of reasons, it didn't. I remember the debate. Of course there was no internet, but around campfires and letters to Pedro at Boy's Life, there was plenty of discussion. Regardless of where one might stand, I think it's important to keep in mind that our new scouts are not werewolves. Nor meth heads. Nor supernatural evil entities who are plotting the demise of the BSA. Let's remember they are girls. Peoples' daughters. They deserve respect, and the same opportunities as the boys. PS Some declare: "Then the GSA should change and offer high adventure etc." Answer: Go to Pizza Hut and demand a double cheeseburger. Note their response.