acco40

Unless you have first hand information on what occured (i.e. you saw what happened) I would not rush to judgement. Explain expected behavior to all involved, give the opportunity to each scout to "fess up" and ask the troop as a whole what should be done (not to individuals but as a troop) to prevent the possible occurance of this behavior in the future. The worst thing that could happen would be to falsely accuse any of the boys. However, if you have your suspicions, keep a wary eye on the parties and make sure you nip any type if behavior in the bud. In my troop, the older boys like to do some types of horseplay. They don't seem to mind but when the younger scouts witness it nad then try their own version in their peer group, it seems to get out of bounds because they don't seem to be able to judge the boundaries as well as the older boys. Because of this, I try to discourage this type of behavior for all. Sometimes I even succeed!

At a compout last year the SPL and the rest of the boys did not want to pull out the troop and U.S. Flag out of the trailer and set them up. It was their decision (although I did not agree with it) so the adults let it stand. When it came time for the pledge we all faced east which I believe is the proper protocol when no flag is present. I prefer this method as opposed to using the flag emblem on our shoulder. Comments?

My deepest sympathies. The younger the boys, the more difficulty they have in understanding "why bad things happen to good people." Many adults struggle with this. When my oldest boy was eleven his catechism teacher passed away (aorta aneurysm). She was only in her thirties and appeared to be in good health. Her son was also in his class. He did not witness the death, it occured at home. When I informed him of her passing I gave him the opportunity to attend her visitation keeping a close eye on how he was responding to the news. I really did not know the family at all personally. My son and I attended the visitation and briefly offered our condolences and paid our respects on a Friday evening. He reaction to the events seemed very appropriate. However, two days later when it was time to attend church, he refused to go. He was struggling with the fact that a good Christian role model had been taken and was rebelling. This type of reaction is fairly normal and quite understandable. Be prepared for some "delayed" reactions from some of the boys. I don't know the age or circumstances of how the Scouter passed away but you want to make sure that boys believe that his death had nothing to do with his scouting activities! Letting the boys express their feelings to a professional (not necessarily a religious leader) is a great idea.(This message has been edited by acco40)

MLB, NBA, NFL etc. "get away" with having the "flag" on their uniforms because they interpret the patch as a "respresentation" of the flag and not a flag or part of a flag in actuality. Sounds like splitting hairs but since ... No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.

Electrical Engineer by training (BSEE & MSEE) and in reality a Systems Engineer (jack of all trades) for a defense contractor.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Once earned, earned. As the song goes ... No they can't take that away from me. I must admit, I have seen Scouts who have earned a MB who suddenly get a closed mind if the subject comes up again for discussion quoting the "I've already learned that" defense. On my last camping trip, I had the two new boys who just earned their Scout "rank" help me pitch my tent and they got a kick out of "teaching" their dumb SM how to tie a taut line hitch. Some kids excel at tests and some freeze up. Why do you think schools teach a topic, go on, re-teach the same topic at a later date and then re-teach it again? Practice, practice, practice.

When we held a Join Scouts Night, we separated the kids from adults and had the kids play a game. One game you can use for two Cub Scouts is to have them sit across the table from each other and put a ping pong ball in the middle of the table. The goal of the game is to blow the ball off the opposite end (your opponents end). This keeps the kids active and can be played over and over again. I've seen Tiger - Webelos Scouts enjoy this game. As for the adult leader (reluctant Dad), ask him to send to you an agenda for the upcoming Den meeting so that you can prepare yourself. In reality, it will force him to PREPARE. Similar to what your troop uses for troop meetings, it should have an opening, closing, pre-opening (best use of a den leader) and a skill/craft activity. Good luck. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Wood Badge socks? (see Korea Scouter) Coin? (see Eamonn) My course cost last year was around $170 for the course and we had the options of buying various shirts, photographs, pins, etc. Materials we received were a hat, neckerchief, woggle (actually material for woggle which we made), notebook & food. Oh, yes, money well spent.

There are two issues here. One, what individuals find appropriate, moral, ethical, etc. and two, what is allowed by BSA policy. The BSA policy on raffles is quite clear, regardless of my personal feelings on them. Again, a CO owns (but it may have their charter revoked) their Units. A chuch may hold a raffle to generate funds and then use those funds to support a homeless shelter, unwed mothers and a BSA troop. Now, if proper guidelines were followed (as stated in previous posts), nothing is against BSA policy. Now, members of the troop may or may not find the methods distasteful and can act accordingly (voice displeasure, leave troop, lobby the CO, etc.). In Michigan, lottery sales (a tax on stupidity) generate funds for the public school system. Forget the fact that for about every $1 raised, a corresponding $1 cut in education funding from the general revenue occurs, it is all legal. Is it ethical? That is for individuals to debate.

Did you know that the "North Star" (Polaris) moves with time? Albeit very slowly, but it does move. I have a hard copy that shows the position of Polaris with time and also has lines of declination for the CONUS (Continental United States). For most major U.S. cities, try: www.timex.com/html/watch_inst_comp_DAUS.html (Note: Jackson Mississippi is 1 deg East)(This message has been edited by acco40)

Our culture, sadly (my opinion) emphasizes sports over many other endeavors (academics, scouting, etc.). Because of the competitive nature of some sports many of the kids are either turned on or off by sports. Sports and scouting can co-exist. There are wrestlers, baseball, football, soccer, basketball and here in Michigan, hockey players in our troop. Some have asked to leave campouts early Sunday morning to attend their games. I let the other boys decide (they always agree). It should not be sports vs. scouts but sports & scouts. With Eagle Foot's predicament I would make sure the parents & boys know the ramifications of missing Scouts during this time (slower advancement, not prepared for summer camp, etc.) but it is their decision to make. The boys will find out soon enough which endeavors they would like to pursue. I agree with Ed on what to do with the new Scouts (making sure the boys are okay with it). In our troop we had three new boys crossover and we had them join a patrol with boys with one year of experience. Not a "new" scout patrol in the classic sense, but not exactly experienced either. It is working out fine so far.

Try this logic (yes I am an engineer) Fact #1 - Leaders can not add or subtract from requirements. Fact #2 - There is a Lone Scout program which enables boys to earn all ranks. Therefore, making attendance at troop meetings, outings, etc. adds a requirement that should not be in place. My opinion, a boy can be very active (i.e. live the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life) and never attend a troop meeting! However, much of Scouting involves teamwork and therefore every effort should be made to interact with one's Patrol and Troop.

Yes, it must have been a bittersweet moment. To earn your beads must have been wonderful but tempered with the fact that you will forever be branded as a bobwhite must have struck straight to the heart. I use to be a bear and a good ole bear too ...(This message has been edited by acco40)

The Church that I attend and the Church that sponsors the troop that I belong to holds a "wine tasting" {aka communion) up to three times a week! And, it seems to me that they are very effective fundraisers. They collect thousands and thousands of dollars each time they do it.

Not trying to sound smart alecky, but BUd got out of the Eagle Snacks business if I remember. Not just beer, spirits and theme parks.

Not trying to sound smart alecky, but Bud got out of the Eagle Snacks business if I remember. Now just beer, spirits and theme parks.

Bob, Not sure if you comments were directed to me or not. My posts were not condeming the acceptance of donations, just pointing out some interesting situations. I mostly agree with your statement that we (Scouters) should be more interested in how the money is used and not where it came from. However, not all cases are so cut and dried. Any organization that portends to be value based has some sticky wickets to contend with. Take the case of alcohol and the BSA. I know what the BSA policy is with regards to alcohol. Scouters and the public at hand can view that policy in many ways. One may view it as condemning the use of alcohol. Other may view it as simply a practical tool to use to prevent intoxication of individuals who work with our youth. Let's say Anheuser-Busch donates a couple million to the BSA. My view, I think that would be grand! Others may look at that donation as tainted and I respect their position. Another hypothetical case I would find very interesting would be if the Triangle Foundation of Michigan made a sizable donation to our local Council. I think that would be great too. Others would be appalled if the Council accepted the donation.

This thread reminds me of the dilemma a church had about receiving a rather large donation by one of their members who had won a state lottery (my facts are fuzy I must admit). The church debated if they should accept gambling winnings. My memory tells me that they decided not to accept the donation.

What about using the proceeds from the selling of illegal drugs for the betterment of the BSA? Has anyone enjoyed their experience at Florida Sea Base?

Look at the size and age of the boys in the troop. I'm a SM for a small to medium troop (16 boys) who are all 6th and 7th graders. My biggest problem is when I give the boys responsibilities (call members in your patrol for communication, plan, buy, cook and clean meals as a patrol, etc.) most of the parents complain that they are not old enough yet. The younger the boys in the troop, the more work required by the SM & ASMs. Working with the boys is great, dealing with the parents can be both joyous and a burden. Knowing your ASMs is a good idea before you jump in headfirst.

"The old unofficial rule of thumb for a PL was being First Class. This goes back to "Green Bar Bill" days. They really need this level of maturity and drive to have a sense of what a leader is and what they are supposed to do." I'm confused. What level of maturity is a requirement for 1st Class? I was not aware that maturity was a requirement for ANY scout rank. However, I do recommend that a PL has learned the basic skills (as required for 1st Class) and the more mature the better. In our troop, the boys have decided that they do not want rank restrictions on leadership positions. I have no problem with that. In our troop, we had a patrol consisting of four first class scouts (approx. 2 yrs of experience) and two tenderfoots (one yr experience). Only one boy wished to be patrol leader (the least prepared in my view) and the boys elected him. I believe they "learned" from their mistake when the next six months did not go to smoothly for them. I told the boys, just like when adults elect a leader (president, senator, representative, mayor, etc.) we have to live and suffer with our decisions. Chalk it up as another learning experince.

I believe the US population would be very surprised to find out the percentage of non-US citizens that serve us as sailors, marines, soldiers and airmen.

Somethings never change. During the height of the depression (maybe I should have written depths of the depression!), a song became a hit with the "populists" (the first pop music?). The "establishment" thought the song very subversive, very anti-American and definitely anti-capitalism. It was branded communistic and hated by many. Now the song is viewed as one of the ultimate patriotic songs of our nation. Any guesses? HInt - a precursor to Alice's Restaurant? (See below for the answer.) The Woody Guthrie song This Land is Your Land. (This land is your land, this land is my land, from California to the New York Island, from the redwood forest, to the gulfstream waters, this land was made for you and me, etc. The verse that doesn't get sung much - In the squares of the city, By the shadow of the steeple, Near the relief office, I saw my people, And some were stumbling, And some were wondering if, This land was made for you and me. As I went rumbling that dusty highway, I saw a sign that said private property, But on the other side, It didn't say nothing, This land was made for you and me.) Can't get much more of a communistic song than that! Yes, it is all in the eye of the beholder.(This message has been edited by acco40)(This message has been edited by acco40)(This message has been edited by acco40)

Bad song for vespers but probably done out of ignorance. Another example, Bruce Springsteen's Born In the USA. It has been adapted by Madison Avenue to sell merchandise as a patriotic song. If one listens to the song, one can easily tell that was not the original intent.

Issues with the CM? If the troop has a Cubmaster, you are in the wrong troop! I believe the question you ask is not who is right, who is wrong, how the situation should have been handled, etc., but how should the removal of a family and how should it be communicated. To me the who is not that important, the how is. If you and the CC were not on good terms, I can see how it would not be a good idea for the CC to communicate your "expulsion" to you. Concerning the how, it should be a committee agreement with the CO (via the COR) at least aware of the decision.