acco40

Bob, I too want to congratulate you on your leading thread post. I have a foot in both the Webelos program (den leader) and atthe troop level (Scoutmaster) so I consider myself unbiased in the Pack vs. Troop debate. When the boys in the Webelos den receive their Arrow of Light, the leaders ARE DONE (assuming that they earn it at the end of their Cub Scout experience). Remember, part of the AOL requirements are to experience an outdoor outing with a troop, attend a troop meeting, fill out a Boy Scout application, have a Scoutmaster Conference, etc. It is not the Webelos leaders job to sustain a troop with new boys. The Cub Scout program and the Boy Scout program are different. I am proud that the majority of the boys in my den are continuing on to Boy Scouts. I did not steer them to the troop I'm involved in. We visited multiple troops. The adult leaders of a troop need to realize that most of the boys do not see any real advantage of adding new boys. From thier perspective, it is just a bunch of "kids" who have to learn the basics. And yes, most troops do a lousy job of retention as compared to Packs but they also have a more difficult task. Well I digress, but I just want to give thanks to BW again for a wonderful post which I think really hit the nail on the head.

I am dead set against any type of self mutilation in the members of my troop. That is why I don't allow anyone, female leaders included, with pierced ears. Also, you can never tell with those circumcised males, poor mutilated fellows set a very bad example. Worst of all are those LASIX souls with mutilated eyeballs. Come on people, get over it. What we don't like (I hate body perforations, and hope my daughter never gets any) and what we should and should not allow is taken care of by the BSA and our COs. The SM and CM should not be setting policy on these matters of personal preference.

The first thing that I practice as a Unit Commissioner is that you should not step in and do the roles of the Scouters for the unit. One of the packs I'm serving is losing their CC and CM in less than two weeks (Webelos II parents whose sons are crossing over). They have no replacements. I've been asked "what do we do!?" and have given them advice - written job descriptions for each role, a willingness (for the past threee months) of the current CCand CM to mentor anyone who may be interested, tips on recruiting volunteers, and on and on. You can lead a horse to water ... The parents have to realize that it is their program, (well really the CO but ignore that) not mine, not the districts, etc. Are they in trouble? No not really. I have confidence that leaders will step up. But BW, yes it is very time consuming. I have been asked to take on more units and have politely declined.

I believe we should ban all avowed smokers from scouting. They do not serve as proper role models for our youth. If a former Eagle scout takes up smoking later in life, strip him of his rank. YOu may feel the above is in jest but acutally smoking (use of tobacco products) to me violates more concrete scouting values as stated in the Oath, Law, youth protection, policy, etc. than sexual orientation ever did. Problem is, the BSA is not funded by strong anti-smoking groups.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I've recently become a unit commissioner this fall for two packs and two troops. I was asked to become UC for the troop I'm in but declined for obvious reasons. Yes I'm new but trained. One of the packs I am a commissioner for is brand new. I view my "job" as a mentor for the units. To units that want my help I gladly and cheerfully help all I can, remembering to for the most part respond to questions and quietly observe, not preach and tell them how to "do it." Some units don't want me to do much more than pick up and deliver their charter renewal paperwork. If so I backoff and cheerfully agree. You can only mentor is someone seeks advice. Yes, we do "spy" on units in a way. The Council and District does ask us about the health of the unit and I tell them facts about the unit. I am very careful not to be judgemental and make assumptions about individuals or units. One of the hardest tasks of Unit Commissioning is dealing with problem Scouters. So far, I've been lucky and have not had to deal with that issue very much. What I find difficult is that some of the units that I am a UC for, meet at the same time as my troop and pack (I'm a SM & WDL too). One of the benefits of being a UC is the exposure you get to other units and how they conduct business. New and fresh ideas are always welcome. Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought one of the job task for UCs was mentoring so I say leave well enough alone for now.

My district has both a District Executive and a District Director. Both do a fantastic job. My question is what are the roles or job descriptions for each position. As volunteers, we are told to contact either one if we need any assistance or have questions. I'm assuming that the District Executive reports to the District Director who in turn reports to the Scout Executive (Council level position). We do have an Asst. Scout Executive (Council) and a Director of Field Service (Council).

Scout Sunday/Sabbath is national but the issuing of a patch is not. Our council for years has held a contest in the fall for the boys to design the "A Scout is Reverent" patch each year. The Scouts and Scouters can earn/purchase the patch by attending a service of their faith in the month of February, preferably on Scout Sunday/Sabbath.

Any Scout attending a service of his faith in uniform during the month of February can earn his "A Scout is Reverent" patch in my council. Nothing sacred (no pun intended) about 2/2 or 2/8.

dan, Why have a Scout Sunday on a Saturday? (2/8/03) I heard of Catholics sometimes not having much "rhythm" but does it afflict Methodists too?

packsaddle, I agree with most of your post, and that reminds me ... A priest and an atheist were on a fishing trip together. After awhile the atheist gets a nibble and then a huge jerk on the line from a whopper of a fish that pulls him into the water. The atheist thrashes around and screams to the priest, "Help, I can't swim. Save me!" The priest answers, "Do you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?" (This is an old joke. I guess I could modernize it with Holy Spirit.) The atheist goes under but bobs back up and upon hearing the priest states, "Please, just save me, save me!" The priest again answers his cries for help with, "Do you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?" The atheist mutters, "Maybe I do. Help. Save me, save me!" And lunges for the boat. The priest picks up the oars and rows the boat away from the atheist's reach and agains states, "Do you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?" At this the atheist finally announces, "I do, I do!" The priest then calmly rows the boat away and says, "You're saved." Regardless of what many feel about the religious and sexual orientation issues with the BSA. It provides an outstanding program for our nation's youth. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water Merlyn.(This message has been edited by acco40)

kwc57, You are lucky. I got my Republican diatribe every day by my high school calculus teacher. I did not have the option of moving (being only 17). Rooster, Yes it is very difficult to separate politics from morals/ethics/religion. But when churches get tax exempt status from the government and then organize highly political efforts to influence legislation I get a little queasy.

BW, In my council we are taught that the responsibility of assigning merit badge counselors (MBCs) is the task of the SM. The procedure is the Scout approaches the SM (or advancement chair) about his wish to work on a particular merit badge. It is the SM (or advancement chair) who holds the resource which lists the MBCs, gives the scout a prospective MBC name and phone number. The youth then makes the call to the MBC. Sometimes the SM (or advancement chair) gives the youth a few names or and the scout can pick the MBC from that group. Therefore, the youth does not pick the MBC directly. I do agree with you that the SM (or troop) should in no way hinder or keep the boy from selecting a different MBC if that is the boy's wish. However, ultimately, the selection of the MBC falls on the SM (or advancement chair). Afterall, he needs the SM signature to BEGIN working on the MB. Of course for instances like summer camp, the "rules" are slightly different.(This message has been edited by acco40)

sctmom, Pack's may have pack leaders' meetings, committee meetings and an annual pack program planning conference. My only point about den leaders is that they are NOT committee members and should not need to attend committee meetings. Of course they should attend pack leaders' meetings and the annual pack program planning conference. Imascouter, in his post, suggested that den leaders attend committee meetings. They should not. They are not committee members. This is in full agreement with the Cub Scout Leader handbook. P.S. The Cubmaster is not a committee member.

Good suggestions. Only one comment, Den Leaders are NOT part of the Pack committee. Although I have a hard time convincing my pack! I've attended almost 100% of the committee meetings (I am a den leader). It is great to have a representative of the den to the meeting but I would re-write your sentence: Insist on the den leader (or a representative) - WAS Insist on den representative (or den leader) - NOW And a boom chick a rocka, chick a rocka chicka boom!

To put more confusion into the pot ... For us here in Michigan and I suspect most border states, we frequently camp in Canada and if the trip is under 500 miles we have been told repeatedly by our council that we only need a local tour permit.

OGE, I agree with you. Why not just forget having elected officials and just have the people vote directly, a national polling system. I shudder at the thought. It makes me laugh when constituents complain that their elected officials don't vote the way they want. In my view, the elected officials should represent their conscience, morals, and beliefs and not necessarily their constituents. In an ideal world, they would be the same. Those guys in the powdered wigs continue to amaze me with their foresight.

It is my understanding that Webelos can (and should) camp with Boy Scout Troops. However, during Camp-o-rees, most Councils state that 1) Webelos dens/patrols should not compete against Boy Scout patrols (same goes for Cub Scouts of the Tiger, Wolf and Bear variety). Many events are set up for Cub Scouts only and Boy Scouts only. Cub Packs have much different rules for camping (see BALOO) than do troops. In "camping together" they would still have to follow the appropriate rules of their organization (Pack and Troop) which are vastly different. Therefore, while not forbidden, it is a good idea for the younger Cub Scouts (Tiger, Wolf and Bear) to not camp with a Boy Scout troop. P.S. This is all from memory so don't take this as gospel. I'll try to see if I can come up with the actual guidlines and/or BSA policy.

First of all, like the religious awards, the World Conservation Award can be earned in Cub Scouts and in Boy Scouts and has different requirements dependent on when it was earned (as a Wolf, Bear, Webelos or Boy Scout). For Boy Scouts, the World Conservation Award is worn on the uniform shirt, centered on the right pocket as a TEMPORARY patch. It is the same for Cub Scouts (slightly different badge by the way). For Boy Scouts only one temporary patch may be worn at a time. However, for Cub Scouts the WCA may be sewn on the pocket and the Progress toward ranks (Wolf & Bear) or the Compass Point Emblem (Webelos) may be worn in addition to the WCA. The Cub Scout emblem (can only be earned once) can't be worn on the Boy Scout Uniform.(This message has been edited by acco40)

troop_358, Merit Badge counselors have the option of accepting the Merit Badge worksheets or not. They are fully in their right to not accept them. MB counselors should follow all YP guidelines. However, it is not necessary (and I think somewhat silly) to think that the boys have to earn the MBs in pairs. If a boy has trouble cold calling an adult, don't become an enabler. You can have him practice with you, have him call grandpa and practice, etc. but DO NOT MAKE THE CALL FOR HIM! Four year olds can be taught proper phone manners.

sctmom, Pack meetings should be set up for families, parents, scouts, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, ... Den meetings should not. Although "family oriented", the den meeting should involve a scout and his parent(s) and not siblings (unless in the same den). I have nothing at all against working (for pay outside the home) mothers. My only gripe is that the children should come first for all parents. Just to strike another politically hot nerve, women are lucky, society generally gives their approval to women who work outside the home or to those who stay at home. For men, society still takes a rather dim view of "stay at home" dads. When I hear women say they have fewer choices I just chuckle. Anyway, I think having a "below Tiger" program would be a big big mistake.

Dan, Old and bald are more physical decriptions (but both or relative). I'm a good ole Bear, thank you very much. Back to Gilwell, happy land ...

1) Working parents need daycare. News flash - maybe the kids need their parents more instead of money. I don't need (or necessarily want) a cellular phone, cable TV, DSL, satellite dish, health club membership, season tickets, microwave oven, and on and on with the "necessities" of life these days. Our children want our time, not our money. 2) Kids have more to learn these days. I always laugh when I hear that. What most kids need to learn today is how to socialize with each other without adult supervision and/or presence. Children need to know DIFFERENT things today, not necessarily more. My daughter could navigate around a computer at the age of four but as a bright eight year old she has no clue about hop scotch, stickball, milking a cow, sewing, etc. I have three children. What I like about Scouting is that it forces me to interact with my children one on one. Not as a group of three. In my den, I had a rule of no siblings (with slight accomodations for single parents). To each his own I guess.

Heck, with a name like "Old Baldy" I say that they discriminate (or at least make fun of) 33% of all Scouters that I know (including me). I'm a gettin' to work on MY lawsuit.

According to Federal Law - can't discriminate: against people with handicaps under Federally-assisted programs based on sex under programs receiving funds on the Clean water act based on race in housing based on sex in Federally assisted education programs based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin for jobs (maybe for professional scouters, a violation?) For this, does sex mean "gender" or ... (noun or verb?). I believe it means gender so the BSA should be okay on this one. According to the State of New York "Neither federal nor state law bans sexual orientation discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodations, credit or education. Nor have the state or federal courts interpreted existing law to protect lesbians and gay men against such discrimination. While some municipalities have passed anti-discrimination laws, they are limited and without the force and effect of state law." {That is why many groups are trying to add anti-discrimination law for sexual orientation.} Exactly what Federal law does the ACLU believe the BSA (Baldy Council) violated?

Meryln, What are the federal and state non-discrimination laws? Last time I looked, you could discriminate on the basis of sex and sexual orientation in many states. (Not an endorsement, just what I believe to be fact.) P.S. Your first two links require registration to get access to the articles.