acco40

A man walks up to NJ and asks, "How much do you charge for a legal question?" NJ replies, "$500 per question?" "$500 per question, don't you think that that is a lot for one simple question?", asks the man. "Not really", says NJ. "Do you charge everyone that amout?", says the man. "Yes.", states NJ. "Don't you think that that is outrageous?", inquires the man. "Not at all," NJ exclaims. "Now what is your fifth question?", say NJ. Sorry, I could not resist.

I see nothing wrong in the current requirements. For those of us on the "down side" of life, asking for physical fitness improvements with each passing year is a bit ludicrous. I don't see too many 80 year olds dominating professional sports (Golf is NOT a sport!). Wait, I changed my mind. A couple of physical fitness requirements I would like to see: 1) For Tiger - Webelos: DO NOT accept your mother's offer to drive you to school. WALK yourself. 2) For Tenderfoot - Eagle: Only allow yourself one hour of video games for each hour of strenuous activity that your participate in. 3) For Scouters: When your son or daughter asks you to play catch, tag, shoot hoops etc., you MAY NOT say no. We don't like to sweat when mowing the lawn so we buy a self propelled lawn mower. If that gets to tiring we buy a riding mower. However, we don't like the sun beating down on us when we mow the lawn so we buy a riding mower with a canopy. By wait, we start gaining weight so to get more exercise, we buy a treadmill. We start to look a little pale so we buy some time at the tanning salon. To top it all off, the cost of all of this forces our spouses to work. Only in America.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The BSA. Tell me any individual who has not ever doubted the existence of God, and I will show you a liar. Oh father, why have you forsaken me comes to mind. (This message has been edited by acco40)

"40 years ago, morally straight included an assumption that NO immoral sexual activity, homosexual OR heterosexual was acceptable. Society has changed to begin to accept immoral behavior, both homosexual and heterosexual. That does not mean the BSA should accept it." I don't think "society" has changed to accept immoral behavior, I believe that "society" has changed the definition of what is considered immoral. A big distinction. Problems arise because not everyone has the same idea about what actions or traits are considered immoral. Thefore, what society, or some segments of society, views as moral, you may not. For example, in the 60's, with the advent of birth control (specificly the "pill"), society (predominantly the youth) viewed premarital sex, cohabitation before marriage, etc. differently than the previous decades. Ten years later when STDs (herpes simplex) became more prevalent and then ten year later still when HIV reared its ugly head, the views of society changed again. Heck, even highly organized institutions, such as the Roman Catholic Church, have altered their official views on morality. Those who view the world in simplistic black and white with no shades of gray mystify me. (This message has been edited by acco40)

The Senior Patrol Leader position badge was established in 1915. (I'm guessing that that is when the position originated too.) Trying to find your answer and came across these interesting tidbits: The core program of scouting has remained the same since scouting began in 1910 in the United States. However, there have been a number of interesting changes over the years. Did you know at one time: Life Scout Was Earned Before Star Scout Adults Could Earn The Rank of Eagle Scout The Number of Merit Badges Needed for Eagle Scout Was 24 The Number of Green Bars of Yesteryear Signified Different Positions Than Today Patrol Leaders Had Silver Rank Badges Background Color on Service Stars Denoted Years of Service Brass Belt Loops Were Used in Advancement Patrol Identification Was By Colored Ribbons The position of Junior Assistant Scoutmaster (JASM) was introduced in 1926. Assistant Senior Patrol Leader was created as a position in the last months of 1959. Troop Guide became a brand new position in 1989. Thanks to http://www.sageventure.com/history/changes/ for the above information. (This message has been edited by acco40)

I stand corrected, thanks sst3rd. The SM uses his/her discretion BEFORE the election (to determine eligibility), not after. Eligibility Induction into the Order requires that eligible Scouts be elected by the other Scouts in their unit. Eligible Scouters must be nominated by their unit, and approved by the Lodge. To be eligible, Scouts must: Be under 21 years of age; Have the approval of the unit leader; Have 15 days and nights of Scout camping, including one long-term camp (6 consecutive days); and Have earned First Class Scout rank. Scouter eligibility requirements are the same, with exception of the age and rank requirements. Now, some have different interpretations of "Scout camping." For example cabin camping, camping with a Webelos Den as a Den Chief, etc. My interpretation is that the SM has the leeway to determine if these are considered "Scout camping." I do know that TroopMaster gives one the capability to flag the camping activity appropriately.

OGE, you and others (like the vast majority of Americans) fall in to the trap of equating fitness with weight. While it may be a good rule of thumb to equate fitness to weight, there are many tremendously out of shape individuals who are not "heavy" and there are a few individuals who are in excellent shape (aerobic and anerobic) who most would consider overweight or fat. The intention of the Scout Oath is great. What metric to use is difficult.

Venture to St. Joseph, Missouri (the Show-Me State) and you will see that Mic-O-Say is a regional organization.

The fitness requirement for Tenderfoot, as you probably already know, is to increase (show improvement) in the metrics chosen by the BSA (quarter mile time, push-ups, chin-ups, standing jump, sit-ups, etc.). However, all ranks require that the scout shows scout spirit which is living by the scout oath and law in their everyday life. The Scout Oath (see below) includes a reference to physical fitness. Therefore, there IS a physical fitness requirement for all ranks. At the age most boys are attempting to earn the Tenderfoot rank (10 - 15 at most), their bodies are still developing and growing. Their strength, especially their upper body strength, is usually increasing by excercise, increased testosterone production, human growth hormone production. Now the real question is why the BSA is somewhat lax on the "physically strong" and very strict on the "morally straight." It seems to me that a smoking, huffin' and a puffin' five foot nine, three hundred pound Scouter would be an "avowed" non-physically strong individual. . . . To keep myself physically strong, . . . Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health. (BSA interpretation, not mine.) (This message has been edited by acco40)(This message has been edited by acco40)

Last summer duiring Webelos Woodlands (summer camp for Webelos) it rained quite a bit. I'll never forget the game of charades the boys and I played in the rain.

Semantics, OGE, semantics. No sex requirements per se, but there is a 1st Class requirement as you state. Maybe it is because of my analytical nature but I was just wondering what criteria certain organizations use for determining sex, race, etc. For sex, for 99.99% of us, the chromosomes and external genitalia present obvious clues. However, for some, physicians and parents need to make judgement decisions about the sex of a newborn. For others, they change their "sex" by surgically altering their genitalia and with hormone therapy. This rarely happens before the age of 18. I just wonder what the legal criteria for "sex" (male or female, not yes or no for the comedians) is. For race, the waters are even more muddied. Recent research tells us that the genetic differences between the races are minute. However, in the state I live in (Michigan), the most prestigious, to some, state University factors an individuals race into their admission metrics. I wonder what criteria they use for determining race or do they just leave it up to the student? Sorry, I got WAY off topic here.

I don't think it is really an either/or situation. For example, the article you quote contains this about Mr. Williams, "Mr. Williams is a recipient of the Vigil Honor of the Order of the Arrow and holds the Distinguished Service Award from that organization as well." It would be a mistake to take that fact and construe it to mean that he does not support Mic-O-Say. The converse is also true.

If the "state" presses charges, why do police officers ask citizens if "they would like to press charges?"

The only discretion that a SM may have about who is eligible for an OA election, is if he wants to count cabin camping or not. Otherwise, if a boy (or girl for that matter) meets the rank and camping requirements, they should be on the ballot. Now, if choosen by the troop youth, the SM may then use his discretion about submitting the boys name to OA. If he issues a veto, he damn well better have a good and valid reason.

Yikes! I have an "all white" troop (or should I say the troop that I belong to is all white). Boy, am I in trouble now. I was not aware that they were not permitted. Yes, those darn Hollywood types are always trying to change our minds. It was just released (declassified by the former Soviet Union) that during Stalins reign, they had a "hit" out on John (Marion) Wayne. They were afraid that he would turn everyone away from communism.

With pushy parents? It is the norm to cross-over in February in our council. That leaves an outing in Feb, Mar, Apr, May, summer camp, July, Aug, Sep, Oct, Nov and Dec. to tie a few knots, practice basic first aid, swim at camp, help out at outings, and basicly "go along for the ride" to become a first class scout within one year. In my book, only a disinterested boy who doesn't read his book aligned with a troop that sits on their derrieres would NOT make 1st class within one year. As stated earlier, the only time requirement is embedded in the Tenderfoot requirements.

Better advice for non-floaters: Take the test in the ocean (salt water).

My oldest son's birthday is in August. He crossed over from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts in February a few years ago after earning his AOL at age 10. After attending every troop meeting and camp outing (one every month) he earned his 1st Class rank in December in a little over nine months (not that hard really if the opportunities for advancement/requirements are presented by the troop). After a year of Boys Scouts he became a den chief (after taking training) and served as a den chief for one year earning his den chief service award the following February. Also during that time he was elected as PL, and a OA candidate and later served as ASPL. During that time he earned his Star and Life rank and his OA membership. The Life rank was earned one year after earning 1st Class in December, four months after his 11th birthday. This past April he was elected SPL and just recently completed his third summer camp and his first JLTC training. Now, I signed off maybe a total of three or four of his requirements in total. I was not involved with the troop much at all until he was well into his "Star" period. IMO, neither I nor his mother "pushed" him to advance. He is now 12 yrs old and has held his Life rank for over 7 months. So in short, a 12 year old 1st Class Scout is nothing to be concerned about.

Blame it on the liberals. Yes, that's the ticket!

Items I tell the boys to bring every year (and they don't) is a pen, paper, and a watch. They also usually forget the bug spray. However, more for leaders than adults, the tent can act as a big black hole for their possessions. I don't know how many times I had a youth ask to borrow something, I then asked if he had brought the item and he would look down at his shoes and mutter, it's in my tent but I can't find it.

FOG, I believe that, just like my taxes, some believe that because they got money in the past, it is "theirs." The CO gave some money to scouting in the past. They are under no obligation to do so in the future. They have the ability to "support" scouting as they see fit. To me, the solution is simple. For camp, assign a committee member to pay for it. Have parents distribute funds (their own personal checks) for camp. The CO does not need to get involved. As for money raised via fundraisers, you have the option of turning in that money to the CO (preferably) or not. If you have received funds from you CO in the past, consider yourself lucky. Personally, I don't feel it is scout like to distrust the CO with no evidence to the contrary. Any yes, many consider my judgement to be naive.

I agree with BW with respect to why on earth would a SM ask someone to research this topic? It would not fall under any umbrella of tasks that a committee member or ASM would be responsible for. I agree with the right of the BSA to set policy for their members but agree with NJ in his interpretation of the basic Scout Oath and Law doesn't make a blanket statement about homosexuality. For example, in most Islamic religions (and was it Ben Franklin, Shakespeare, or the Bible that stated, "neither a lender or borrower be") charging a fee (interest) for a loan is considered immoral. Therefore, if the BSA were based in Mecca (after the USA took over Saudi Arabia for their oil), the authorities may state policy that "morally straight" means that one can't get a loan. Therefore, any leader who publicly avowed that they received a bank loan would be deemed as an unfit role model and dismissed. I feel the BSA was within their right to make the same type of policy with respect to homosexuals. I also believe that in time, it will change.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Rooster and MarkNoel gave a good synopsis of the problem. Some think of homosexuality as immoral. Others as just another defining characteristic such as skin or eye color. I can see both sides. Heck, I'm a sinister person (left handed) and would not take to kindly to an organization that said "we respect your right to exist, but are not welcome in our organization because we feel you are not a proper role model for youth."

"Rats" come in many colors. I've heard of Pack treasurers spending pack funds for personal vacations. The CO owns the troop & pack. It is their money, their troop, their pack, their equipment. You have the choice of changing packs and troops. A friendly discussion on why the church feels the need to consolidate the accounts is in need. A question I would bring up is how they would handle the idea of scout accounts. Good luck. Money raises the hackles on many. Remember, a Scout is trustworthy (IMHO, includes trustworthy of others.).

Hawk, Think about this, the requirement says to successfully pass the BSA swimmers test. A scout is given a "swimming" test. The outcome of the test is that the scout is either classified as a "swimmer", "beginner", or non-swimmer (or what some in the PC world call learner). To successfully complete the swimmers test (not a swimming test) I interpret to mean that the scout becomes classified as a swimmer. Learner: Just get into the shallow water and get wet. Beginner: Jump feet first into the water over your head. Level off, swim 25 feet, turn around and swim back. Swimmer: Jump feet-first into the water and swim 75 yards in a strong stroke on your stomach or side (breaststroke, sidestroke, crawl, trudgen, or any combination). Then swim the last 25 yards on your back, keeping your hands in the water (elementary back stroke). After swimming these 100 yards, float and rest on your back.