acco40

For what it is worth, I agree with OGE & BW. The boys need to choose their leaders (I wish I could in my place of work). However, to add a new wrinkle take my recent summer camp experience. I was lucky that 100% of the boys in our troop participated in summer camp this year. Therefore, I made no changes in PLs, ASPL, SPL, etc. But, we also had two additional provisional campers (from another troop) that I melded into one of the patrols. One of the provisional campers was a PL in his troop. I admit, it did not occur to me to hold any type of election for new leaders. I did ask the provisional campers if it was okay to put them in the patrol I did (mostly 2nd and third year scouts - a regular "scout" patrol and not quite yet an "experienced" patrol). Comments?

I've had camp staff ask for troop attire (custom hats, T-shirts, etc.). I usually "tip" by donating to FOS, specific facility fund drives, service projects, camp conservation projects, volunteering, etc. When I am on staff, the best tip I have received is a genuine "thank you" from youth and parents. It really does mean a lot.

What I feel is over represented in Scouting is the sons of single mothers. Wishing for a strong (or at least some) male influence in their sons life, they turn to scouting. Now when I feel it is over represented, I talking pure numbers, not that I feel they should not belong. I'm not all that aware of how the change in allowing female leaders (Cubmasters, Scoutmasters, etc.) in the BSA came about. I know it occured in the early '70's (ERA time frame) but have no idea if any political pressure or threats of monetary exclusion were wielded. Does anyone see similarities? The same issues were brought up too. Can a female provide a proper role model for young boys/men? Is it proper for a young adult female to lead 17 yr old boys?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Thanks Bob. It is nice to think that the site was a corporate donation. On my way to summer camp two weeks ago (about a three hour drive) I wore my "civies" and about five miles from camp, pulled into a restaurant for a quick bite to eat for me and the youth I was transporting. After I finished eating, I changed into my uniform. While waiting for the boys in the parking lot one passerby saw my uniform and struck up a conversation about scouting. He had been to Philmont and told me that the individual who started Phillips Patroleum (Mr. Waite Phillips) wanted to donate the land that is now Philmont, to the BSA. According to his story, the BSA did not bite stating that they did not have the money to manage it. He therefore included in the gift his 23-story Philtower Building in Tulsa, Oklahoma so that the BSA could use revenue from that building to finance the running of the ranch. Interesting story.

The national office is now in Irving, Texas. It was formerly in New York City, New York and Brunswick, New Jersey. Did the office move from NJ to Texas and if so when (and not to get into a big diatribe but why)?

Any author that writes about "coalitions" (shades of right wing conspiracy theorists?), hidden agendas, hidden meanings, etc. tend to turn me off. If they want to argue facts, fine. I agree with Bob White that many (usually a minority but many times a very vocal minority) of these groups really are gunning for certain groups. But just as idiots who shoot abortionists don't make abortion "right" by their stupid behavior, boorish behavior by the DNC (I wonder what Gephardt thinks) doesn't make the BSA position either right or wrong. It all boils down to the public opinion of homosexuality. Don't think for once that public opinion on issues does not influence the Supreme Court, public and private organizations. There is a battle waged by a vocal minority on both sides of the issue concerning the gay/BSA issue trying to sway public opinion. I also think that many are tired of hearing the battle being waged. In trying to sway public opinion groups tend to use terms that justify their cause (pro-life as opposed to anti-abortion, pro-choice as opposed to pro-abortion). I hate the use of terms like "traditional values" which are in use by the BSA and the LDS Church author. Is slavery a "traditional value?" Is "eye for an eye.?" I agree with the values espoused by the Oath and Law of the BSA (although I don't like the "morally straight" because is it to ambiguous, sort of like saying "do good."). However, I wish they didn't use such terms as traditional values because although they make many feel good, it doesn't really mean anything.

or gay teachers? The answer of course is no. The reason is that teachers and parents, while they may act as Akela, may do so without becoming registered leaders in the BSA.

I believe some of us forget this simple fact. The US Army and the BSA do not wear a flag on their uniform. The USAF does not have flags on their aircraft. What these organizations have are representations or symbols of the flag (patches, decals, paintings, etc.). Just like the flag is a symbol of our country (and NOT the country), the optional patch that many of us in the BSA wear on our shoulder is a symbol of the flag (and NOT a flag). This is not just a symantics issue. Because it is not a flag, it does not come under the flag codes of the US.

I thought the article was mostly rubbish.

The funding question (way back at the beginning) reminds me of the lottery winner who wanted to donate someof his winnings to his church (a Christian denomination which I forgot). His church refused on the grounds that they do not condone gambling. IMO, as long as the donations to not buy influence (which is very difficult to prove one way or the other), the BSA should gladly accept all donations to further the cause of Scouting. Ed, you doubt that a Christian organization would discriminate? Have you read the bible? God is very discriminating in who He allows to be saved according to Christian scriptures.

As Neil Young once said, here is a song guaranteed to bring you down. The book of Ecclesiastes can do just that. It is one of my favorites. "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done there is nothing new under the sun." (ECC 1:9) Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

A little off topic but ... I was contemplating making some sort of wall chart record of troop advancement but a few parents objected with the comments that it would make the boys who had not earned as many MBs and advanced in rank feel bad. To be honest, I was surprised. This "self esteem" kick that has been drummed into everyone's head has gone overboard.

Cub Scouts - family activities Boy Scouts - leadership/independence training in a safe environment (zounds, where are character, citizenship & fitness?) Girl Scouts - self awareness, confidence Scouters - joys of volunteering & working with youth

The SM has a lot of homework to do before the annual planning occurs with the boys. The tasks described below are the primary responsibility of the Scoutmaster IMO. 1.) Gather district, council, school and CO dates for events that will effect the troop. 2.) Review resources needed to plan the annual program. Examples: National Themes: July - Health Care, August - Boating/Canoeing, September - Safety, October - Nature, November - Business, December - First Aid, January - Winter Camping, February - Citizenship, March - Physical Fitness, April - Forestry, May - Leadership, June - Special Cooking, July - Backpacking, August - Aquatics, September - December themes will be released in May of 2004. Possible Themes - Aquatics, Athletics, Backpacking, Boating/Canoeing, Business, Camping, Citizenship Communications, Cooking, Cultural Awareness, Emergency Preparedness, Engineering, Environment, First Aid, Fishing, Forestry, Health Care, High Adventure, Hiking, Hobbies, Leadership, Mechanics, Nature, Orienteering, Physical Fitness, Pioneering, Public Service, Safety, Science, Shooting, Special Cooking, Sports, Tracking, Wilderness Survival, Wildlife Management, Winter Camping - and more! 3.) Review the advancement status of each Scout. 4.) List goals for the troop. Examples: Troop Membership (1st - Retention of existing Scouts, 2nd - Active Webelos recruitment ) Advancement - First Class within First Year as a Goal National Quality Unit Award Summer Camp (100% attendance) Troop Equipment (fully equip each patrol) Begin Interest & Preparation in High Adventure Outings (2005) Service Project - Man Scouting for Food Trailer Train Junior Leaders Train Committee Members 5.) Review the program features available to the troop.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules for all but in our District: OA elections are encouraged to be completed in January and February. I know some have been "tolerated" to be finished in March. Our summer camp is in June/July (starts this Sunday!) So, do you need elections a year in advance? No. Can you hold them one month before sumemr camp? No. (At least in our District.)

Our district actively recruits unit commissioners from within the unit (not my preferenceby the way) and they see one of the commissioners primary duties as a liason for the unit to the district/council. My opinion is that the district was having a very hard time recruiting unit commissioners and felt that a unit member from a healthy unit (who determines if a unit is healthy is a good question) is better than no commissioner at all. The lesser of two evils I guess. I plan on goingto my first "commissioners college" this fall. Any pointers anyone?

Well, I was wrong. He may wear the Service Award along with the Webelos Den Chief cord. See below: Den Chief Service Award: A special recognition given to Den Chiefs who complete certain service and training requirements. Presented with approval by the Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. (See Den Chief Handbook for requirements and procedure.) A distinctive red, white, and blue shoulder cord worn with the regular Den Chief or Webelos Den Chief cord, worn as described for the Den Chief shoulder cord. May be worn after Den Chief service is completed.

If your son is (was) a Bear Den Chief, he wore a blue & gold (I'm guessing, I forgot) cord. A Webelos Den Chief wears a different color (green, yellow and red?) cord. If your son earned the Den Chief Service award (one full calendar year of service) I believe he wears a red, white and blue cord regardless of the age of the den. I don't believe he wears more than one cord at a time. Therefore lets say he served as a den chief for a year with the Bears and a few months now with the Webelos, he should be wearing his red, white and blue cord. I'm basing my answer purely on logic and memory and will be the first to admit I could be way off base.(This message has been edited by acco40)

For religions that profess to have strict Sabbath policies, I wonder how they determine when the Sabbath occurs. Most Christians consider the Sabbath as Sunday, Hebrews, Saturday. Can anyone elighten me as why? Is it not more important to set aside time (a day for some) to reflect on God, faith and spiritual endeavors and less improtant on the particular time when it is done. Myself, I prefer Wednesdays. Mark, do I read your post to say that morality is a majority decision or more of a when in Rome, do as the Romans? I'm not trying to make light of what you wrote, just trying to understand. I think it is good for our youth to have role models. I also believe that exposing the youth to the trials and tribulations of single parenthood (regardless if by death, divorce, out of wedlock birth, adoption, or whatever) teaches by example. Most professional organizations use recovering members to teach the evils of XXX (recovering alcoholics, former cult members, gamblers, etc.). As long a the pregnant Venturer (?) is not advocating her previous actions to the youth, I think that the CO and the BSA could be excellent role models for the youth (teaching tolerance) by accepting her membership (taking into account all of her other qualities). The young lady can also be an excellent role model by showing the youth how she overcame adversity.

Circumstantial evidence points it out and I know it is the BSA manuals somewhere (Bob White can you help me out?) but I don't have them with me - All SMs and ASMs must be at a minimum 20 - 30 lb overweight (aka Chubby & Cuddly). Not sure if that policy is in place in other parts of the world.

Why on earth would anyone in Scouting feel the need to "avow" their sexuality regardless of what it is? Heck, if one of the leaders in our troop got up on a podium to avow his heterosexuality (?) in front of a Scouting audience, I would recommend that the CO boot him out. Those type of actions are not germane to the Scouting movement.

Actually, we like to provide the resources to become first class in the first 9 to 12 months. That is, from when they join the troop (as early as mid-February, to as late as late April) to when we hold our OA elections in early February. That way, the boys become eligible. With ourdoor camping opportunities every month (except possibly December), the opportunity and resources are there. My experience is that about 50% take advantage of that opportunity and thus 50% do not.

Welcome back TJ and Rooster. I'm seem to remember both of you signing off a few months ago. It is all fine and dandy for any organization to say that they stand up for "morals" and "ethics." The problem is, not everyone is in agreement on what constitutes morality and also that for most, morality has a priority scale so to speak. Also, it is human nature to not want to be looked down upon by others. Unfortunately, some use high profile organizations such as the BSA as a litmus test or "target of opportunity" to advance their cause without the boys best interest at heart. Take for example borrowing money. I can find biblical references to the sins of borrowing money (help me out here Rooster). Or was that Ben Franklin (neither a lender nor borrower be)? Anyway, some religions view charging interest (or paying interest) for money as sinful. Most do not. What is morally straight? Take gambling. Society, or more specifically the state, now endorses gambling via lotteries, casinos, sports betting, and on and on. A few decades ago it was seen in a much worse light than it is today. Heck, we celebrate lottery winners now. What is morally straight? Take drinking & smoking or even obesity for that matter. Should we not desecrate the "temple" (our bodies)? What is morally straight? Take out of wedlock births (or more correctly, conceptions). Society now seems to say if you have the resources (i.e. Hollywood actress) go for it. No more "homes for unwed mothers." Technology is changing the views of many on abortion. What is morally straight. Take my wife. Please. (Sorry, my self deprecating manner came through). I know the BSA policies. I know that the BSA has constituents, money issues, history, expectations, etc. I am not naive. Why did the BSA (national) feel that they needed to have a policy statement homosexuality instead of leaving it up to the individual COs? Personally, I don't like policies that are based on things other than peoples actions. Look at the BSA policy. What is an avowed homosexual? Can a celibate be considered an avowed homosexual (IMO, yes). Heck, I knew I was a heterosexual long before I lost my virginity! Do I respect the BSAs policy, yes. Do I want my son to grow up believing that homosexuality is inherently wrong? No. I support the BSA with my time, money, and my own sons. Just like the acceptance of women leaders, I know the BSA will change. The question is, will it be for the better?

I believe that First Class/First Year, just like the Eagle Rank, should be the goal of the SCOUT. The goal of the troop, should be to provide the opportunity for the youth to obtain the experience and training that is required to advance in rank to 1st Class within the first year. For example, in my Council our spring event was a "First-Aid-O-Ree." I am lucky to have a trained EMT (not sure exactly what his real title is) as an ASM and he did a wonderful job helping to teach first aid requirements to the youth (as requested by the SPL). The SPL and I knew what knowledge would be covered at the event and we geared four or five troop meetings toward preparation for that event. When completed, I reminded the boys that many of the skills and tasks that they learned and completed were the same ones required for Tenderfoot, 2nd Class and 1st Class. However, I felt (and still do) that it is their responsibility (not the Troops) to be aware of the advancement requirements and to notify me (as SM) or the advancement chair, or the PL (preferably) or their SPL that they have completed the task. Some of the boys did, alas, some did not. You can lead a horse to water ... P.S. Now my question. Do you know the first place in the USA to provide floridated water to the community? Answer - Grand Rapids, Michigan(This message has been edited by acco40)

With the patch for youth and the medal/knot for adults, is a CSP going overboard? NESA has hats, neckerchiefs, bolos, etc. Next, we can have red epaulets with little silver eagles emblazoned on them!