InquisitiveScouter

Advancement over adventure. You and I both know they have it backwards.

The Summer Camp near us (different council) upped their prices $200 per head from 2 years ago when we attended. A one-third increase. So, we dropped them from consideration in favor of other councils' camps who did not do the same... But... see link page 3... the Summit 2022 Summer Camp is about average market price. https://summitbsa.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Summit-Bechtel-Reserve-Program-Planning-Guide.pdf

You mean that Summer Camp on steroids that is competing with all the Summer Camps of the surrounding councils?

But!, but!, but!, I thought councils were independent of National!!?? <sarc>

One thing I have done is to become an MBC for much of the stuff I can do also, outside of professional or deep hobby interests. So, although I am no ski instructor or coach, I can do and teach all of the skills for Alpine and Nordic skiing in the Snow Sports Merit Badge. I do not mess with Snowboarding. But, if there is a Scout who Snowboards, and they work with an instructor or coach who does know those things, I can have a conversation with the Scout and coach about the requirements and reach a level of satisfaction that the Scout has completed the requirements for the Snowboarding portion. I have no issue signing off the badge then. I firmly believe a great part of being an MBC for a particular subject does not mean you know everything about it, but that you have more than a passing knowledge of the subject, and KNOW where to tap into resources to guide the Scout as he completes the requirements, or needs some instruction or guidance to complete the requirements. There is no need to recruit a Subject Matter Expert to be the counselor...

Looks like the torso cut is much longer now. Maybe those shirt tails will get tucked in now?? (Doubt it 😜 )

The restriction (on under 13) is based on the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA). "COPPA imposes certain requirements on operators of websites or online services directed to children under 13 years of age, and on operators of other websites or online services that have actual knowledge that they are collecting personal information online from a child under 13 years of age. https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/rules/childrens-online-privacy-protection-rule-coppa So they don't have to deal with COPPA, and put in additional coding and controls, the websites simply put on the age restrictions. The same is true for mail servers, like Google Mail (gmail.) Like @qwazse, I tell parents that they should create their own accounts for their Scouts to use, but they should monitor the activity to supervise content and conduct. If they feel their Scout can handle it at 13, then they can help the Scout create her own accounts. This also applies to Scoutbook. A Scout cannot activate their own Scoutbook account until they are invited by their parent with a unique email address, and email servers have to comply with COPPA. The Scouts should have them, because it is part of learning responsibility in the digital world. But, we always defer to the prerogative of the parents. We have a few 14 year old Scouts who get all of their messages, texts, correspondence, etc., through their parents.

Maybe we can ask Elon Musk to buy BSA!

That is a question I am certain is circulating the halls in Irving, TX

They either secure loans, donations, sell more assets, etc. (some form of cash infusion), or file Chapter 7.

One of the best ways Lodges used to serve units was with a Where to Go Camping Booklet (WTGCB). It was researched and published frequently by the lodge. My home Lodge did this, and there was even an award at our Conclave for Best WTGCB. Some lodges still do this service for units. https://danbeard.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Dan_Beard_Council_Where_to_Go_Camping_Guide_June_2018.pdf http://www.nisqually155.org/resources/Where_to_Go_Camping_Guide.pdf https://eswau.net/where-to-go-camping-guide/ Ours does not.

Let's take that analogy, and substitute Arrowman back in, and appropriate terms to reverse the analogy... If an Arrowman does not pay his annual Lodge dues, no one is going to say "that's OK, we'll take care of it." (????) Instead, the Arrowman loses their power to serve their unit and can't actively participate in their unit. They don't stop being an Arrowman, they just aren't allowed to serve their unit. It's not a good idea for that Arrowman to grab his sash and go back to serve until the issue [paying his dues] is corrected. At that time [upon paying his lodge dues] they become a full fledged Arrowman again and can get back to work serving their unit.

No, that isn't the issue. I know many Arrowmen who are in good standing in their units (the people who honored them with the recognition in the first place), who do not wish to be associated with a lodge. I am one of them The purpose of the OA is not to put another rock in a Scout's rucksack. LOL, no! https://oa-bsa.org/about/organization-structure Lodges At the local level, lodges exist to serve BSA councils and individual units. The key leaders in the lodge are the youth lodge chief, volunteer adult lodge adviser, and professional staff adviser. The lodge chief presides over the Lodge Executive Committee, which is responsible for executing the annual program of the lodge. While each lodge is different, the Lodge Executive Committee typically consists of one or more vice chiefs, a secretary, and a treasurer, as well as chapter and/or service area chiefs and operating committee chairmen who are responsible for various aspects of the lodge’s program. Many lodges, especially large ones where additional structure is necessary, have service areas and chapters to chapters. These often align with BSA districts and execute the program of the lodge on a community level. Units do not exist to support the lodge! You have it backwards! This is one key reason that the OA does not fare well. Many lodges are like big self-licking ice cream cones. They exist primarily to serve themselves, and that is why many unit leaders do not allow the OA program in their unit! (You do understand that principle of prerogative?) Here, the OA created a Venturing unit just to provide lodge members a place to keep their BSA registrations so they could continue to serve the lodge without being involved with any local units. The Venturing unit is a "shell corporation." How do you think the unit leaders in this council view that Crew? As a leader, I encourage our youth to participate in the lodge, if they wish. But, they are under no obligation to do so. I also tell them that, if that participation detracts from their service to their unit (i.e., the people who selected them for the honor in the first place), then they have misplaced their priorities. Your policeman analogy is unintelligible, and does not clarify.

What does a Scout do [with a previous award] if they convert to another faith? - The Scout may continue wearing the "previous" award at her discretion. Do they need to do the program over again or can they simply switch the pin to the one corresponding faith they now follow? - The "program" is different for each faith. That is, the requirements for a religious award for each faith are different and often have different levels based on age/grade. If the Scout wishes to earn the award for her new faith, she must complete its requirements (from scratch, so to speak). - A Scout may not earn an award in one faith and then wear the 'equivalent' award from another faith, as the requirements for each award are different. That is, having a religious award from one faith does not grant you the "analogous" religious award in another faith. As stated above, the specific religious awards are not BSA awards. BSA recognizes the accomplishment when a youth completes the award requirements sponsored by a specific faith. A recognition of the accomplishment comes in two forms: 1. A medal (or some other recognition) is awarded by an organization sponsoring the award of that particular faith. BSA does not procure nor award these "medals" You must get them from the specific organization/faith to be presented at a ceremony of the Scout's choice. You can find a list of contacts for those organizations here https://www.scouting.org/awards/religious-awards/chart/ Many of those awards have links you can follow to view the requirements. Some even have a downloadable workbook. YMMV. 2. Once a Scout earns the particular award, then she is entitled to wear a knot on her uniform signifying the accomplishment (wearing the medal previously awarded might be kinda clunky on the shirt) The knot for youth is this https://www.scoutshop.org/youth-religious-award-knot-5007.html And multiple levels of the award are recognized by device pins, corresponding to the program of Scouting during which the award was earned. Here is the Scouts, BSA device: https://www.scoutshop.org/boy-scout-pin-device-927.html and these are BSA items Here is some more info explaining the program... https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/11/13/scouts-guide-earning-religious-emblem/ And you can find out how to wear them in the Guide to Awards and Insignia https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Religious_Emblems_WEB.pdf Finally, any youth/adult may earn these awards. They do not have to be Scouts. To wear the BSA knot and devices, you must be a Scout/Scouter. Hope this answers your questions.

Your thinking is right on this... And I am VERY glad you have a culture in your unit where this is the case. (The youth wanting to continue to be part of the program.) But, there are clear boundaries, as you point out. What they want is not Venturing. What they want is Rovering!! http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/rovers.html

With a larger Troop, this does require a bit more scrutiny well before the OA selection. Our selection night is next week, and the SM Corps has been in discussions about who is eligible. Ultimately the SM's decision, but he has wisely asked for input from the ASM assigned to each Patrol, and our ASM/OA Troop Advisor

So, to be clear, are you saying that Joey Scout, who is elected by his unit and goes through the Ordeal (having paid the fee and his membership dues in the local Lodge for the year), and becomes an Arrowman, that he ceases to be an Arrowman when his dues lapse next year for the local Lodge?

And yet they have not been removed, nor changed, nor further clarified, in spite of any "blowback." And I have no contention with anyone's statements about what the attendance policies or standards are for Lodge, Section, Area (or Service Territory), or National OA events. Never made any assertions otherwise.

The absolute funny thing is, that I used to be of that mindset, during some of my tenure as Lodge Chief x 2/Vigil Honor (1984)/Ceremonies Team Chief x 6/Unit Elections x 2 /National Leadership Seminar/NOAC, etc etc. .etc But I had a great mentor who had been a Vigil Honor since the 1930's, was instrumental in founding many lodges in the Southeast, knew and worked with E. Urner Goodman, Carroll Edson, and J. Rucker Newbery, and a Lodge Advisor for another 25 years before I came along... He pointed out the same principles I am pointing out to you.

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this... Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia. He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

Your statement is in direct contradiction to that published on the National OA site. https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap I'll go by what they say, thanks!

LOL Yes, you should continue after reading the following: Let's start with the Purpose and Mission of the OA: https://oa-bsa.org/about/mission-purpose Mission & Purpose For over 100 years, the Order of the Arrow (OA) has recognized Scouts and Scouters who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives. This recognition provides encouragement for others to live these ideals as well. Arrowmen are known for maintaining camping traditions and spirit, promoting year-round and long term resident camping, and providing cheerful service to others. OA service, activities, adventures, and training for youth and adults are models of quality leadership development and programming that enrich and help to extend Scouting to America's youth. Mission The mission of the Order of the Arrow is to fulfill its purpose as an integral part of the Boy Scouts of America through positive youth leadership under the guidance of selected capable adults. Purpose As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to: Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition. Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp. Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation. Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others. Please show me ANY statement in the above that membership requires a Scout to do anything with the Lodge after completing his induction. 😜 Here's another reference: https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap Please note, "An Order of the Arrow member can always wear their sash and the Universal Arrow Ribbon once they have completed the induction. However, wearing a lodge flap indicates that their current dues are paid in the specific lodge that the flap represents. So, if the individual has not paid their dues, they should remove the flap from their uniform." If you actually bothered to read the "mountains of literature" with intellectual honesty, you could only come to the conclusion that you are mistaken. And I agree with your statement about NOAC, but that is irrelevant. I made absolutely no pronouncements about NOAC or any other lodge, section, or National events like that. OA business includes unit OA elections, where any Arrowman may wear his sash, regardless of his current lodge affiliation. OA events at Summer Camp would also fit the bill. OA days, OA Ice Cream Socials, Call-outs at the campfire, etc. etc. etc. An Arrowman may wear his sash for those events, regardless of his current lodge affiliation. Parents who are Arrowmen, and no longer affiliated with BSA, but observing the induction of their Scout at an Ordeal may wear their sash while attending, regardless of their current lodge affiliation. You must make a distinction between being an Arrowman and being a lodge member. They are two separate statuses. Once inducted, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. Once you let your dues lapse in a lodge, you are no longer a "member in good standing", but retain your status as an Arrowman. The honor was given by an Arrowman's unit, not by the Lodge. Please continue, because you said "several" of my original assertions were incorrect. You have yet to name any that were incorrect. I'll leave you with two thoughts that apply in the situation: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." "When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

No one said otherwise. Read the post... That means events and business... What other points are incorrect??

This is the cancer that has eaten BSA away...

Since it is not really an election, but rather a selection, now, I do not ask. What I do tell them is that Order of the Arrow is part of our UNIT program, not the Lodge program! WE use it as selection for an honor within OUR Troop. I have talked with many Scouts who fear one of three things: 1. I'm rejected. OK, so what? So now you KNOW, rather than walking around guessing. And that is an indication to you that there MAY be some area for improvement... if you should decide to improve. Would you rather know, or would you rather guess? 2. I do not want to be in the OA. Fine, no one says you have to go through an Ordeal. But, if you are selected by your fellow Scouts, you now have OPTIONS. 3. I'll deny someone else the chance (rare). NO! Because it is not an ELECTION. It is a SELECTION. No one else loses a slot because of your being on the Selection Menu (versus ballot). By the way... and I have said this around here until I am BLUE in the face. An Arrowman's FIRST duty is to his UNIT! Not to the lodge! Nothing obligates you to service to the Lodge. If you choose to go through the Ordeal induction Ceremony, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. Should you not wish to pay the dues next year, you will not be a member of the Lodge. So what? You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances. Just take off the flap...