InquisitiveScouter

You will not find a clear cut answer to the question. And the question is really, "When does the Cub Scout program end?" Here are various answers you could find supporting arguments for in the literature: A. 11 Years old. The reasoning is this: There are three criteria for joining Scouts (you must meet one to join): " 1) ...at least 10 years old, currently in the fifth grade and register on or after March 1st: 2) OR have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old, 3) OR are age 11 but have not reached age 18." Although the criteria do not specifically say it, you could interpret the intent that 11 year olds (who were never in Cubs) get vectored to Scouts. https://www.scouting.org/about/faq/question1/ Couple with that the verbiage from Guide to Advancement 4.1.1.0, "In situations like those found in home-schooling or nontraditional education, where youth are working at grade levels that may not correspond to their ages, Cub Scouts should work on the rank that relates to their age, rather than their grade. When doing so, take the joining requirements for Scouts BSA into consideration to avoid completing the Arrow of Light too long before meeting the minimum age requirement for Scouts BSA. Cub Scouts do not “go back” and work on ranks designed for earlier grade levels, even if missed due to their time of joining. Likewise, Cub Scouts do not “move ahead” to work on the next rank until the completion of the current school year (or until their next birthday if they are transitioning by age), with the exception of those who earned the Webelos rank in the fourth grade." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf B. February-ish. Chart from BSA site at https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/511-807.pdf says "Fifth-grade Webelos Scouts graduate in February and begin meeting with a Troop in March." C. 01 June. Same chart above shows the program year beginning in June. So you could make the argument to extend to that... D. Cubs Scouts ends a the end of fifth grade. See chart at https://pdscouting.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Required-Adventures-Chart-for-Ranks.pdf Program upper limit is fifth grade. this also aligns with criteria above. Also aligns with Scout joining criteria in A. C. 31 August. One chart, still available from BSA at https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/26-004.pdf shows the Cub program year beginning on 01 September. Probably the weakest argument... The saddest issue here is "I have a parent who really wants his son to earn the AOL." Too much to unpack here... The heart of the requirements issue is how to meet the requirement for participation: "1. Be an active member of your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old." If the Webelos den does not exist after crossover, with whom will the young man participate?? He could accomplish this (I suppose) in a few ways: 1. Council allows him to register as Lone Cub Scout, and parent handles it all... 2. Parent registers as a WDL, and handles it all (because parents cannot sign off requirements for AOL), including perhaps taking him to one last year of Webelos resident camp with another unit, and then the Scout fleets up to BSA after six months is done. 3. Have him work on his own requirements while hanging with the rising AOL den until complete.

Nuanced doublespeak... "encouraged to avoid ... joint participation in community events or activities" You could interpret that to mean Girl Scouts are "encouraged to avoid" placing flags on veterans graves because BSA units are there doing it at the same time.... hogwash Or, you could interpret that to mean Girl Scouts are "encouraged to avoid" walking in the Memorial Day Parade because BSA units are doing the same. ("Encouraged to avoid" is too slippery,,, just say "prohibited" or "shall not") Same interpretation applies to "...exclusive to the Girl Scout program" I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts, most GSUSA units are completely ignoring this, just as they are in our neck of the woods. It would be more clearly understood if the GSUSA put out guidance to say GSUSA units are not to participate in events "sponsored" by the BSA.... ala District or Council events, National Jamborees, HABs, etc.

Thanks, but the memo cited only outlines risks. It prohibits no interactions.

Concur. And your thoughts on COR guiding this, versus SM?

Explicitly? As a parent of a Girl Scout and a Boy Scout, and working as a volunteer with both units, I never heard such a prohibition.

To be clear... how many Scouts are in the unit? I am wanting to assume from the OP that there are 8 Scouts, which begs the question of why you have an SPL position. As for the issue at hand, get the Scouts together, define the problem, and guide them through working it out. And this is not a COR issue.... this is an SM issue. Unless the SM is recusing because one of the Scouts is his son? Even if that is so, I'd say the next stuckee is an ASM (do you have one?) More information, please...

No need to remove ceremonial inductions, signs, symbols, or watchwords... All those may be observed and preserved

Peoples all over the world have used arrows and archers as a symbol. English Longbowmen (Robin Hood) (William Tell actually used a crossbow, and he was Swiss) Odysseus (Ulysses) etc. etc. https://www.worldarchery.sport/news/175753/archery-and-gods-kings-myths-and-legends

You jest, but that isn't all that bad... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Expedition

The first ones were in black robes. Here's a pic from the birth of my home lodge: You could easily ditch the headdresses. And you do not need a fictional story of Native Americans to promulgate ideas about Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service. You could easily find stories to demonstrate these during the Colonial period, or during the American Revolution, or the westward expansion, etc. It should not be offensive to find and tell a story from some native tribes to demonstrate these principles, either. They need not be from your area particularly, since you are ditching the wearing of clothing to mimic. Or, if a lodge wanted to incorporate stories from their local first peoples, there's plenty... 574 recognized tribes in the US. https://www.usa.gov/tribes P.S. Gotta love the ties!! P.P.S. Also see https://oa-bsa.org/history/first-ceremony

There you go, trying to use logic again. Silly goose...

We always announce the results of the election selection, as call-outs are hit or miss in our council. Mostly miss. That way, we make sure our candidates get the info they need when they need it, to make the timing for Ordeals.

Yes, he has become quite the Outdoorsman! And I do like this award. I would put the level of difficulty above Eagle Scout.

@Leehoden, that is the National Outdoor Achievement Award (NOAA). That is something different. Several NOAAs are required for National Medal for Outdoor Achievement. (NMOA) Look for the medal requirements in Scoutbook. or here: https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/advancement-and-awards/noa/

I had to call an old friend who works the store in another council. She found one for my son. eBay will probably be best source going forward. My gut says, since so few have earned the award, I think they may either discontinue it, or have only one source at National.

uh, James Dale... BSA vs Dale They DID revoke his membership because he is gay. And that Supreme Court decision still stands. BSA may have changed their policy, but the right for a private organization to define its membership standards is law. https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/61/boy-scouts-of-america-v-dale

You are correct... The system is not currently designed to keep track of Riding miles nor Aquatics hours, each of which are counted for the National Outdoor Achievement Award (NOAA). I helped my Eagle Scout keep track of his in Scoutbook. Specifically, under the basic award for each NOAA, there is a comment which contains a log of all activities related to that award. Sorta looks like this: - 150 miles Horseback riding and Cycling during Cub Scout activities ( from Cub Scout records kept) - 30 miles - ATV Program, Summer Camp - 17 Jul 2017 - 10 miles - Cycling - Beach Camping, 18 May 2018- 10 miles - Mountain Biking, XXXX State Park , 12 Nov 2018= 200 miles to date (meet 200 miles requirement for basic award) - 22 miles - Canal Path Day Trip, 10 Apr 2019- 35 miles - Cycling, Scout Camp, 15 Jul 2019- 11 miles - Cycling, Town Halloween Bike Ride, 25 Oct 2019- 60 miles - Cycling Trek, Aug 2020= 328 total to date (meets +100 miles requirement for 1st gold device) etc, etc, etc. Indulge me a Dad Brag?? My son just finished Wilderness First Aid over the holiday period --- the last requirement for him to earn his National Medal for Outdoor Achievement This is system is very cumbersome, but the burden, currently, is on the Scout to keep track of his activities, other than those actually recorded in Internet Advancement (miles, nights, service hours...)

So you'll Zelle him the money, then?

Source?

Yes, @fred8033, you can send him the money via Zelle!! That would keep the peace 😜 We do not know "how much" communication @Armymutt did with the Committee in developing the budget. If he sent adequate notice, and had a quorum to make and decide on the budget, then move forward with the budget you have. Sure, you can allow for an amendment, but only through the Committee... @Armymutt, do you have another Committee meeting scheduled, with enough time to address the question and deal with the funding, if the Committee decides to amend the budget? This is the way to "keep the peace." Don't be the SINGLE person who holds this up. If needed, hold a Committee meeting via Zoom, and, if (and only if) you get a quorum to participate, then address the question. And ONLY Committee members get to vote on it. Parents and DLs can give input, but drive the group to a decision. And, if the decide in a way you you don't like... well, you are a good Armymutt... you know how to take directives and follow them without liking them. BTW, we change our budget several times during the year of execution. There are always unplanned expenditures and questions that come up. We build consensus, and make a decision. We never try to make everyone happy. If it works out that way, great. And also BTW... as Committee Chair, you might consider not casting a vote, unless it is to break a tie.

Plaques aren't essential. They are a "want" versus a "need." If they aren't in the existing budget, then this is a Committee issue, if there is a push to fund this from the AOL parents. IF the Committee votes to fund this, then they have to solve the problem of how to fund it or come up with plaques. There's a million ways to skin that cat. But, if you are the CM (??) then this really isn't your issue. If you are CM, then you don't have a vote 😜 Past history is just that... past history. That they were funded in the past is irrelevant to the issue. We did plaques similar to @Eagle94-A1. One parent made the plaques. (Is there a wood hobby shop on the base??) BTW, my 17 y.o. Eagle Scout does not hold his AOL plaque as one of his "treasured possessions." He has many many more treasured items from his years as a Scout.

Concur!! From the Scout Handbook (page 416): "Once you feel that you have MASTERED [emphasis mine] a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement. This could be a youth leader, or an adult leader, or a merit badge counselor. (This won't be your parent unless your parent is also a troop leader or merit badge counselor.)" This is the written rebuttal to the "one and done" mentality. I have had to show this to Scouts on a few occasions. The written word has great authority 😜 Good luck!

We have to do a mix of both... Four months out of the year, our PLC designates that month's outing as "Patrol", versus the rest where they do things together as a Troop. Even on the Patrol-determined outings, sometimes we have to get two Patrols to go somewhere together due to lack of adults to cover all outings. (We currently have six Patrols and will gain a seventh next month with Crossovers.)) Our guys typically do not choose to go to District or Council events. They view them as "lame," and several Scouts on the PLC have said, for the competitive events, they are just tired of winning... LOL There's not much ADVENTURE in our District or Council events, so they choose to go far afield for overnight events.

Yeah, it can go too far the other way, also, to where the local OA lodge is a quasi- Native American heritage preservation society. The purpose of the Order gets lost then, too... Too much focus on dance, drum, outfits, etc.

Yes, there have been so many "levers" pulled over the last decade or so, that it is virtually impossible to sort out what the top detrimental effects on membership numbers have been. So many factors (in no particular order): - The downward trend in families seeking out long lasting group associations (and the commitments that come with them.) (Primarily religious institutions, but I believe Scouting is affected as well.) - The trend in schools to have extracurricular activities last much, much longer: sports, band and choruses, theater, dance, clubs, etc. etc. etc. If my kids had chosen such, they could be involved in school-sponsored extracurriculars year round. - The trend in families to schedule out every moment of the day with some activity for their kids, which drives them to seek out additional opportunities above the school-sponsored stuff: marital arts, and travel sports teams are big around here... - The general downward trend for Americans to trust institutions https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-down-average-new-low.aspx - Fallout from the pandemic - Inflation (and wages not keeping pace with it.) - Growth in abilities (and attempts) to use the internet to fill the need for social connection (although it doesn't work). https://www.sogolytics.com/blog/how-has-technology-affected-social-interaction/ And I'm sure there are more factors... I believe it will take another year or two to have better hindsight as to what has happened.