InquisitiveScouter

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council? A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply: Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program. The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election. It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping). The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify. This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are. Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect. https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

OK, still having coffee and waiting for my teenagers to get out of bed, so... Back to philosophy. Here's another twist: Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow? A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the unit leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement. As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (2021 revision, page 18): Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader. * A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that. https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/camping-requirement-interpretation Unpack that one 😜 For the letter-of-the-lawyers, define "resident camp"

Love it; will do!

From the article: "Short-term campouts provide variety in both preparation and experience, and the Scouts are more likely to have to set up their own tent and take more responsibility for outdoor living skills. A long-term summer camp is still a long-term camp even if the Scout is there for only a portion of the time. It’s an entirely different adventure and usually doesn’t call for the same level of self-reliance required for a short-term camp." I think we'll count the canoe trek as 5 short-term camping experiences, with a day of canoeing between each one 😜

Same reasoning I was questioning, @UKScouterInCA. It is all poorly worded. I believe the intent is to have a Scout set up camp multiple times, in a multitude of different settings, and fit into the mindset @qwazse outlined above. Look at the relaxed OA requirements for camping above. If you are a letter-of-the-law person like @mrjohns2 , then a Scout could have camped in his own back yard 27-31 May (5 nights in May) and then 01-05 June (5 nights in June) and have been eligible with short term nights. Never move his tent for this "virtual camping" experience. Not exactly what we'd be looking for, huh?

Not shirking. But I am a spirit if the law person, rather than a letter of the law type.

Troop was camping. This Scout is also deeply active in school, sports, band, and church. I wish every Scout was as well rounded as he. Don't jump to conclusions without asking about the facts. You aren't making a very splendid figure @mrjohns2

The canoe trek was August. Election is early Jan. We have one trip sched next month for 2 nights. He'll be short 2, unless we count all the nights of August, then he'd be over the requirement.

Concur... but he has not been in Scouting for full two years. Joined at 13. Very active, great skills, and participates a lot. Def an "honor camper" already. I think it would be a disservice to him (and the Troop) to have him wait another year.

Have experienced 15 nights of Scout camping while registered with a troop, crew, or ship within the two years immediately prior to the election. The 15 nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of at least five consecutive nights of overnight camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. Only five nights of the long-term camp may be credited toward the 15-night camping requirement; the balance of the camping (10 nights) must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps of, at most, three nights each. Ship nights may be counted as camping for Sea Scouts. OA "Selections" coming up. (They are not really elections. ) We have a First Class Scout who attended Summer Camp, so has the long term nights covered. After camp, he also went on our canoe trek of 6 days and 5 nights. Each day, they packed up camp and canoed to a new site, setting up a new camp. I think we should count those as short term versus long term nights, for eligibility purposes. I believe the philosophy behind the eligibilty requirement is to eliminate camping in one place for the required nights. Thoughts? Also to inform the discussion, consider 2021 OA policy: The limitation on counting no more than three (3) nights of virtual short-term camping in a single month is increased to five (5) nights per month. All other requirements for virtual short-term camping eligibility remain in effect. The requirement for a long-term camp of five (5) consecutive nights is relaxed. While council long-term camps should be utilized if available, any combination of short-term and/or long-term nights, in camp or virtual, that are part of a BSA unit-organized unit camping event held within the two years prior to election may be counted toward the 15 night requirement.

I do it for the money! Our Committee just doubled my pay!! $0 x 2 = $0

LOL, yes, you are correct. But he could say "No" to being a "professional." I have turned down several offers of DE positions...

Yes! This is why we tell new folks the best skill to acquire is to know when to say "No."

We give them the 5 year membership so they can apply for scholarships

He was a known quantity in the council. Worked other jobs on the staff and at camp... I never had much interaction with him, and knew of him to be a generally good fellow. First report was that as he got into the role, he realized he sincerely found it distasteful. It is a curious development. I may ask my other contacts what the issue was.

P.S. Even doing an annual increase, that would be about a 10% per year increase!

So, council announced our new DE two weeks ago in our council newsletter!! He quit today. Speaks volumes...

Reviving this old thread. Was just looking at our Troop budget for next year, as we purchase a 5-Year NESA Membership for our new Eagle Scouts. Price is now $100!! Effective 20 Jan 2022. Yes, I know I'm a little late, but we didn't have any Eagle Scouts this year due to a zero recruitment year 5 years ago. But that's another story... That's a 286% increase. Here's their gobbledygook: "NESA is the largest and most recognized group of Eagle Scout Alumni Achievers. We’ve kept membership fees artificially low for many years while offering a high number of college scholarships and other unique Eagle Scout opportunities. Just as you and your family must keep pace with rising costs, we must ensure a robust ability to deliver membership experiences that support and protect the mission, values, and time-honored traditions of Scouting."

There is an 8-hour ECSI WFA refresher course. It does not count for BSA WFA. BSA has issued a WFA curriculum: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-008.pdf And ESCI and BSA have an agreement that the BSA course is 16 hours.... https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/training/ecsi/ https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/training/wilderness-fa/ There are two options for completing the 16-hour requirement: all classroom, or blended 8-hour online and 8-hour classroom. I have taught both courses. I prefer the full 16-hour in-person course. In fact, I do not offer the blended course any more. I'll explain why if you'd like to know... If someone is teaching an 8-hour course only, and marking it as sufficient for BSA, then I believe they are wrong. Of course, who is watching or checking at the council level??

I have witnessed many poor ceremonies where principals read from the books. I recommend focusing on the movements and the flow of the ceremony, rather than worrying about lines. Take heart... most candidates don't really get the meaning of what they are hearing anyway. It takes exposure to the speeches in the ceremonies and ideas several times until the real meaning of the OA begins to sink in. (Like, studying for Brotherhood...)

We are not a UMC-chartered unit, but I know of several in our area. Two linked Troops (B & G) sought out separate new CO's. One went to Kiwanis, and the other to a local Fire House. However, they are staying at their UMC with a FUA, because the relationship is good and the congregation wishes to continue support. Another has council as CO, as they could not find a willing participant, so took up this charter as a temporary arrangement. They are currently at their UMC with a FUA, but are looking to pull up stakes and move completely, when they can find a new home. A mixed bag, it seems...

Entertaining? Elaborate, please? As a retired military member deeply involved in our unit, I find that parents and other volunteers greatly appreciate my direct style, and that I hold Scouts and adults accountable for their actions, and to live up to the promises they make. If you agree to serve, and then you don't (absent some extenuating circumstances), we simply thank the volunteers for their interest, and move along... Now, I do wish I could give out Article 15's, as there have been a few adults who certainly deserve them 😜 But, it is much easier to "trim the dead wood" in a Scout unit than it is in the military I actually find that the average person without military experience fares worse in those leadership roles... ref @Armymutt above...

I have had many parents ask that I sign something off for their Scout, that the Scout did not do. When I explain the requirement, most completely agree. Over many many years, I've only had a small few demand (LOL) that I sign something off. I politely refused, explaining I did not see how the Scout had completed the requirement. One even taunted that they'd just get someone else to sign it off. I tell them I am not responsible for what others do. I am only responsible for what I do. Here's a great phrase to unpack in a Scoutmaster's Minute: "When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

You have got to be kidding me!!! Surely it wasn't that egregious??