InquisitiveScouter

Dear InquisitiveScouter, [name change 😜 ] Scouting America, in collaboration with the Harris Poll, is conducting a landmark study to better understand the values that define our nation — where they come from, how they evolve, and how they influence our lives today. As a valued Scouting America alumnus, you've been randomly chosen to participate in this exclusive survey. Your insights will help illuminate the role Scouting has played in shaping the character and values of generations of Americans. Your responses are completely confidential and will only be reported in aggregate. The survey takes less than 20 minutes to complete. This study is only conducted once every 10 years — and only a select group of alumni are invited. <SURVEY LINK> [REDACTED] Please note: This survey link is unique to you and can only be used once. Kindly do not forward it to others. Your perspective matters. By participating, you'll be contributing to a deeper understanding of the values that unite us — and how Scouting continues to make a lasting impact. Thank you for being part of this important effort! Patricia Wellen Research Director, Scouting America Pat.Wellen@Scouting.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Patricia! Question... if my survey is to be completely confidential, then why issue a survey link that is unique to me? To my regret, I believed BSA once before on this. After giving my opinion on what could be fixed in the organization, particularly with regards bloated and unresponsive staffing, poor IT support, and an unnecessary number of councils with overpaid council employees at the higher levels, our local council executive blacklisted me and removed me from all district and council positions. No, thank you! Regards, Inquisitive Scouter

All to better serve you and your unit!

Because if it weren't for non-sense, we'd have no sense at all? 😜

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For requirement 9a (20 nights), the verbiage says "Each night must be spent either under the sky, in a tent you have pitched yourself (if a tent is provided and already set up, you do not need to pitch your own), in a hammock that is safely strung outdoors, in a lean-to, or other three-sided shelter with an open front. Nights spent in indoor lock-in events, cabin camping, hotel stays, or other covered accommodations do not count toward the 20 nights." So, staying in the cabin of the sailboat does not count. Sleeping on deck (because they are making a comfortable "ground bed" and sleeping under the stars ... sure! Requirement 9.b. (4) says, "Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles.", So, if the sailboat travels either four hours, or five miles, under sail (not motoring), then, yes, it counts. Not sure where it says these nights count for Sea Scouts for Camping MB? Reference, please? Other than for the National Outdoor Awards Program? "Complete 25 days and nights of camping—including six consecutive days (five nights) of camping (Sea Scouts may be on a boat), approved and under the auspices and standards of Scouting America—including nights camped as part of requirements 1 through 3 above. Scouts must complete six consecutive days (five nights) of the 25 nights at a Scouting America accredited resident camp." https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/advancement-and-awards/noa/ [NOTE: this verbiage contradicts itself... "Sea Scouts may be on a boat" is listed before the "...under the auspices and standards of Scouting America" stipulation. To communicate clearly, exceptions should be specifically spelled out AFTER stating the rule.] Nothing specific about this in the Guide to Advancement: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Or in articles on Aaron on Scouting: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/ https://scoutingmagazine.org/2017/12/no-glamping-allowed/ Or the Sea Scout Manual: https://seascout.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/3323925-Sea-Scout-Manual-PDF-Posted-02182025.pdf Let's take this argument to its absurd extreme. Your unit books a cruise on a cruise ship. The cruise ship is under power, so the trip does not count for 9b, but it would count for 9a, because you are on a boat? No. Because there is an overwhelming number of variations on "camping" and the legalese of what constitutes camping, I look at the spirit of the thing. And yet, it is difficult to articulate the spirit of it, as long as the "if a tent is provided and already set up, you do not need to pitch your own" clause is there... Instead of arguing the legalities of it, this is one I ultimately leave to individual Scout, and the leader signing it off. If you and the Scout agree those nights count, then count them. My Scouts and I do not count them. We did our sailing adventure... I asked our Scouts, and they agreed. We only recorded nights spent on deck under the stars. And we had buddy boats... one equipped with air conditioning that could be run while moored, and one without (only run while in a powered slip.) Even the Scouts on the boat not air conditioned agreed their nights below deck should not count toward the requirement. Final thought... if you need to rely on nights below deck to get your 20 for Camping Merit Badge... (insert a phrase appropriate for Scouting that communicates your level of individual effort just doesn't cut it...) Happy Trails

@ZebraLongwing, the answer to this is clearly in the Guide to Safe Scouting: Tenting In Cub Scouting Parents and guardians may share a tent with their family. In Older Youth Programs (I.e., Scouts BSA, Sea Scouts, and Venturing) Separate tenting arrangements must be provided for male and female adults, and for male and female youth. Youth and adults must tent separately. Youth sharing a tent must be no more than two years apart in age. Spouses may share a tent. As an exception, a parent or guardian may share a tent with their own child if they are of the same sex. https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a Your local council can make exceptions to this policy for reasons of health and safety. For example, once upon a time, we had a Scout who had night terrors and sleep walking behavior. The parents were deeply concerned for the Scout's safety on camping trips. So, we, wrote a detailed email of the situation and our recommendations to the council exec: a parent would register with the Troop, sleep in same tent with Scout to deal with the issue if it arose, and parent would not count toward our requirement for two-deep. This was acceptable to council (and national), and the exception was granted.

There is a downward trend in literacy in the US. Most kids aren't reading any more. I have noticed this in troop settings. Scouts (and adults) just aren't reading things, like the Scout Handbook. When asked for instruction on a skill, I first ask the Scout to read that section of the Scout Handbook. Most are opening their books to that section for the very first time (even though the page numbers are listed on their requirements.) In my perception, Scouts demonstrate lower and lower reading ability over the last decade. I often have to help 12, 13, 14, & 15 year olds with words in the book. I believe electronic devices and internet content are the greatest contributor to the decline; poor parenting and reliance on substandard school systems are the second greatest contributor. (My wife and I believed that it was our responsibility to teach our children to read, among other things, and so they did exceptionally well in school. Also, we limited their access to electronics and gave them books to read to occupy their time.) COVID may have accelerated this trend. Here are some 2025 stats listed from the national Literacy Institute https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/2024-2025-literacy-statistics On average, 79% of U.S. adults nationwide are literate in 2024. 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2024. 54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level (20% are below 5th-grade level). [this is astounding to me; that's about 130 million adults reading below 6th grade level] Low levels of literacy costs the US up to 2.2 trillion per year. 34% of adults lacking literacy proficiency were born outside the US. Massachusetts was the state with the highest rate of child literacy. New Mexico was the state with the lowest child literacy rate. New Hampshire was the state with the highest percentage of adults considered literate. The state with the lowest adult literacy rate was California. Where does the US rank in literacy? [worldwide] The US ranks 36th in literacy.

Agree, if they participate... we have some Scouts with sparse attendance at meetings and rare attendance on outings. They do things for advancement purposes only, because they (and their parents) focus on advancement as the end, and not the means. If I was the benevolent dictator, I'd not renew many of our Scouts' registrations each year, due to lack of participation... that, in order to focus more of our resources on the ones that do come and participate.

It is easy to lie, cheat, and steal your way to Eagle Scout... I have seen many a "Paper Eagle Scout" over the years. It has literally become akin to "pay your fee, get your degree." If you keep your membership up, attend a few summer camps where you sit around a picnic table and listen to a 15 year old talk about a merit badge, and have your parents do your project, you, too, can be given an Eagle Scout rank patch. When these come to me for assistance, I hold to the requirements. Nothing more, and nothing less. I do not sign requirements if I believe the Scout has not done them as written, and have had some parents be quite upset with me when I refuse to participate in helping them maintain the facade. They have always found someone else with, let's say, a different standard of integrity, who will sign off stuff... My stance is always that "I am only responsible for my own actions."

The OP also ignores elements of complexity in the organization... When you first "sign up", you really have no idea what you are getting into. The organizational structures and policies are discovered or revealed to you over time. (Or they change...) It is also naive to expect anyone to agree 100% with every policy or decision that comes down the pipe. The organization is made of people... and people often make poor decisions. I agree with the ideals, aims, and methods of Scouting, and I pursue those. I find the organization is often at war within itself because of policies, actions, decisions taken which do not coherently align with the ideals, aims, and methods. Here is a case in point... The Scout Oath presents a tenet to us to be morally straight. For most of its history, BSA prohibited open homosexuals from being adult leaders in the organization. They even won a challenge to this policy in the Supreme Court. In my faith and belief, acts of homosexuality are a moral evil. Therefore, I did not, and do not support the BSA's reversal on this policy. I can tolerate the policy, but I do not accept it. There is a difference... I have learned to reconcile this, given the circumstances of BSA's other policies surrounding the issue... to wit, our CO has the latitude to prohibit adults who openly profess or practice homosexuality, and our Troop Committee / parents will not accept a leader into our fold who does so. These parents do not wish their children to be exposed to these ideas in our Scouting environment. Further, BSA policy specifically prohibits discussions of these matters in a Scouting setting. So, the issue should never be brought up. In effect, this is equivalent to a don't ask, don't tell policy. I do encounter volunteers in BSA who openly push the issue. I simply disengage and walk away. See item 6. in the Scouter Code of Conduct: "I will not discuss or engage in any form of sexual conduct while engaged in Scouting activities. I will refer Scouts with questions regarding these topics to talk to their parents or spiritual advisor."

So, you'd rather everyone drink the Kool-aid? And if they do not want to, nor fall in line with everything, then they should leave?

We have tried, but, like most of these positions, you usually wind up with a Scout doing little more than wearing a patch and doing some "low threshold" tasks during their tenure. (to use your words.) Big picture, for each SPL tenure of office (for this unit it is every six months), the SPL must appoint a slate of PORs. Many often continue in their role, and that is fine. Shortly after installation into his office, the SPL organizes and leads an Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops (ILST). During ILST, the PORs learn about their jobs and SMART goals. They must use that information to develop three SMART goals for their tenure, and the goals must be approved by the SPL (and the SM) I am the adult in our unit who mentors the OE Guide. The three goals we see are along these lines: 1. By the end of my tenure, I will complete the Outdoor Ethics Orientation Course, S1110. ( An alternate to this is, by the end of tenure, I will assist in teaching an S110.) 2. By the end of my tenure, I will complete the Outdoor Ethics Awareness Award. (Or alternate, I will complete my OE Action Award.) 3. By the end of my tenure, I will give two 5-minute presentations on an Outdoor Ethics topic or principle at a Troop meeting, both of which must include teaching and practicing a hands-on skill. (How to hang a bear bag, how to deal with dishwater after a meal, how to measure 200 feet so you know where to dump dishwater, how to erase the evidence of a fire using Leave No Trace techniques, etc.) The Scout should come up with these goals, but often, the Scout does not "know what right looks like." I view these as all low threshold, but it seems over the last decade or so, even these have become significant challenges for Scouts. And, we have not had an OE Guide for the last year. We try to use the job descriptions from the Scout Handbook to create the SMART goals, as those list specific tasks of the position. Creating and approving the goals is a chore, and we often fall short on doing the work necessary to ensure accountability for the goals, unless the Scout needs the position as credit for advancement. Our Scouts generally avoid PORs nowadays, unless needed for rank advancement... a sad state of affairs if you ask me, and one of the signs that our unit is on a downward trajectory. (I see this dearth of effort to drive accountability [by SPL and adults] as a contributing factor to the downward trajectory.)

And how about a drawing of a pirate holding a sword in one hand, and a VIPER in the other?? Now that would be cool

And another... and this will (as it has in the past) generate controversy... Pet peeve: Requiring a Scout to say "Thank You" when handing a folded pocketknife. And admonishing them when they do not. Read your Scout Handbook. A "Thank You" is required only when handing an axe. Should a Scout say "Thank You"? Yes, of course, a Scout is Courteous. Must a Scout say it, as a matter of instruction and requirement? No. If you say "yes", then do you impose the same requirement for the exchange of all other items? Pens and pencils, books, papers, spatulas, first aid kits, food items, etc, etc, etc. that have as much risk as a folded pocketknife?

OK... a pet peeve... yelling "Signs Up!"

Bottom Line: CO owns the money, too... not council. Here is the last finance guidance I have from BSA legal on disposition of funds upon dissolution of a unit. I have not searched for an update on this. Please review. https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units_May_2023.pdf Also, you find nothing of the sort in the current Charter Agreement form: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/524-95625-Annual-Charter-Agreement.pdf Now, that will not stop council from asking for the money. We had a Crew fold here a few years ago... the unit returned excess monies to CO, and then CO asked the council what to do with it. Council said, of course, to give it to them. However, there was a big problem... some unit members had already paid dues and membership fees for the next charter year. The decision to fold was made after some had already paid. When the families found out, they, rightfully, asked for their money back, as they had paid for next year's program. They got nothing. Due to this incident, a few families left Scouting for good. I fault the unit leadership, the CO, and council for the situation. The unit committee did not uphold their end of the bargain: "The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations." I would argue that the return of dues for the future year was a "unit obligation."

Avoid calling attention to your own deeds. Allow others the opportunity to ask about them, or recognize your achievements. We should all practice humility.

One way we have developed to slow it down, and to make sure Scouts know it, is to do a repeat after me Scout Oath, Law, and Outdoor Code. A little pressure is a wonderful impetus to learn something well 😜

Welcome @Patt_00 to the forum! Glad you are finally able to air your voice

Yes, at the "national" level... but this very much depends on your state and county health departments, also. For example, from the Ten Mile River Scout Reservation Leaders Guide, the edicts of the People's Republic of New York are "New York State law requires all Scouts who attend camp for more than one week to complete an additional form about meningitis. See “Meningitis ” on page 18 for more information. In March 2024, the Sullivan County Department of Public Health issued Local Board of Health Public Health Order No. 1 – 2024 Children’s Camps. It requires that all campers at any summer camp in the county have certain vaccinations, and this will apply to every Scout who will be camping at TMR this summer. A copy of the order is included with the TMR version of the AHMR. Quoting from the order: All campers must have documentation of these vaccinations administered before the beginning of camp: • Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (Dtap/DTP/Tdap) • Hepatitis B vaccine or proof of immunity • Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR) or proof of immunity (positive titer) • Polio vaccine (IPV/OPV) • Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine or proof of immunity • Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (MenACWY)- Measles ” on page 19 Sullivan County requires documentation for all campers, adult leaders and staff of proof of immunity to measles. Thus, it’s important that the date of measles vaccination be included on the AHMR." https://tenmileriver.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/TMR-Guide-25.pdf YYMV in your state...

Haven't seen anything "published" is the usual manner... or in Annual Report to Congress since 2023: https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/ Or NAM presentations, 2024: https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf Transparency has never been a strength of BSA (my opinion). Which is often a signal that bad news pervades and must be hidden from view. (again, opinion).

OK, I'll humor you, but I'll give you rough numbers... Dec 2018, over 8000 Scouts (all programs in our council), over 2000 in our district, with almost 40 troops Dec 2024, less than 5000 Scouts, 1.2K in district, with fewer than 30 Troops. Troops sizes are mixed... some large (35+), some mid-sized (15-35), some small (<15) Since 2018, we have lost a fourth of our Troops, and that is factoring in the addition of 8 girl troops. (One girl Troop folded last year) Five districts in council, most without a DE for some time. Our district very active, with an event for Cubs and Scouts at district level almost every month, except during Summer Camp season. Including council events, there is something for Troops and Packs literally every month of the year. (For Troops, I think this is too much) Yes, other Troops nearby. I work with our district training crew, and our district is 17.5% points higher in adult training than the next lowest district, 22.5% higher than the lowest district. Our Troop member numbers have remained steady-ish in this time, but only due to gaining the losses from the Troops folding in recent years. We have fewer new Scouts joining over the past three years... (Our Troop met Gold JTE for every year since 2017, with two years of what I like to call "solid gold", that is, gold level in every category.) We are known for having a quality program. Now, your turn for homework... let's see your numbers for comparison.

Sorry, don't have time to do this kind of homework for you...

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves... We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities. We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out. Side note: notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule? I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask.. Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%. If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.) Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture: 1. Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions. We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on. 2. Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 3. It is not about your kid. You are here for all. The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom). During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment. 4. Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements) Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip. We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice. 5. We pay for all required training. For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS. You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost. 6. We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!) We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft). We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?) Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics. 7. A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety. We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier". With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it. 8. We police each other. Youth Protection is fiercely enforced. Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly. Most infractions are due to ignorance. Ignorance can be cured... 9. Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..." When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication. There are more facets here, but I'll stop. We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets. And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely. In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp. So, we made our own, and they had a blast. (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.) The Scouts absolutely loved it! The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports. Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp. The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps. So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. (By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...] We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events. This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

Even at a full sprint, joining to Eagle takes 19 months: 30 days for Tenderfoot physical fitness requirements (all Scout and Tenderfoot requirements could be done in this period by a precocious Scout) Four weeks for Second Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative now 2 months) Four weeks for First Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative 3 months) Four Months as First Class to Star (cumulative 7 months) Six Months as Star to Life (cumulative 13 months) Six months as Life to Eagle (cumulative 19 months) I have never seen it done that quickly. The fastest I have seen it happen is a young lady who, already having her Venturing Summit Award, Congressional Award Gold Medal, and GS Silver Award, joined a Troop at 16 years old (under the waiver), and completed in 20 months to become one of the Inaugural Class of female Eagle Scouts. And, other than school work, that is all she focused on. (She dropped out of GS, and said the Gold Award was not worth it for her...) Show Mom the math...