InquisitiveScouter

Haven't seen anything "published" is the usual manner... or in Annual Report to Congress since 2023: https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/ Or NAM presentations, 2024: https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf Transparency has never been a strength of BSA (my opinion). Which is often a signal that bad news pervades and must be hidden from view. (again, opinion).

OK, I'll humor you, but I'll give you rough numbers... Dec 2018, over 8000 Scouts (all programs in our council), over 2000 in our district, with almost 40 troops Dec 2024, less than 5000 Scouts, 1.2K in district, with fewer than 30 Troops. Troops sizes are mixed... some large (35+), some mid-sized (15-35), some small (<15) Since 2018, we have lost a fourth of our Troops, and that is factoring in the addition of 8 girl troops. (One girl Troop folded last year) Five districts in council, most without a DE for some time. Our district very active, with an event for Cubs and Scouts at district level almost every month, except during Summer Camp season. Including council events, there is something for Troops and Packs literally every month of the year. (For Troops, I think this is too much) Yes, other Troops nearby. I work with our district training crew, and our district is 17.5% points higher in adult training than the next lowest district, 22.5% higher than the lowest district. Our Troop member numbers have remained steady-ish in this time, but only due to gaining the losses from the Troops folding in recent years. We have fewer new Scouts joining over the past three years... (Our Troop met Gold JTE for every year since 2017, with two years of what I like to call "solid gold", that is, gold level in every category.) We are known for having a quality program. Now, your turn for homework... let's see your numbers for comparison.

Sorry, don't have time to do this kind of homework for you...

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves... We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities. We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out. Side note: notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule? I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask.. Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%. If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.) Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture: 1. Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions. We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on. 2. Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 3. It is not about your kid. You are here for all. The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom). During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment. 4. Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements) Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip. We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice. 5. We pay for all required training. For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS. You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost. 6. We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!) We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft). We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?) Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics. 7. A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety. We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier". With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it. 8. We police each other. Youth Protection is fiercely enforced. Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly. Most infractions are due to ignorance. Ignorance can be cured... 9. Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..." When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication. There are more facets here, but I'll stop. We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets. And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely. In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp. So, we made our own, and they had a blast. (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.) The Scouts absolutely loved it! The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports. Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp. The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps. So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. (By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...] We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events. This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

Even at a full sprint, joining to Eagle takes 19 months: 30 days for Tenderfoot physical fitness requirements (all Scout and Tenderfoot requirements could be done in this period by a precocious Scout) Four weeks for Second Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative now 2 months) Four weeks for First Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative 3 months) Four Months as First Class to Star (cumulative 7 months) Six Months as Star to Life (cumulative 13 months) Six months as Life to Eagle (cumulative 19 months) I have never seen it done that quickly. The fastest I have seen it happen is a young lady who, already having her Venturing Summit Award, Congressional Award Gold Medal, and GS Silver Award, joined a Troop at 16 years old (under the waiver), and completed in 20 months to become one of the Inaugural Class of female Eagle Scouts. And, other than school work, that is all she focused on. (She dropped out of GS, and said the Gold Award was not worth it for her...) Show Mom the math...

Hmmm... different philosophies, I guess. If they do not schedule any events where map and compass or orienteering events, or aquatics, or whatever, are available for those who need them, as a Scoutmaster, I advise them of the need to provide those opportunities for advancement, but do not "force" anything on the PLC, other than decisions which affect health and safety. And, I am curious... what exactly do you mean by "force." Do you dictate their schedule?

Agree... but making this a reality is quite difficult, as it is the Scouts (PLC) who choose their activities and calendar. If it was up to me (I would be an excellent SPL 😜 ) then the schedule and activities would be radically different. But, as I understand the program, I can only suggest and mentor, and step in (veto) only in cases of health and safety.

My biggest hurdle on this is dealing with Scouts who use their devices primarily for entertainment. Gaming, watching youtube, tiktok, snapchat, whatever the flavor of the day is. When they are doing this, I explain they are disengaging from the activities we are doing, disengaging from their fellow Scouts, and disengaging from their responsibilities in camp. We do ask Scouts to schedule at least an hour per day of "free time" where they can do what they wish, but encourage them to enjoy the outdoors rather than escaping into their devices. If a Scout uses his device inappropriately, like gaming/texting during an activity or lesson, or having their phone on after lights out, then they get one warning. Upon the second infraction, we hold their device for safekeeping until the end of the camping trip. Parents know, understand, and support this policy.

Three adults on "Treks" at Philmont: https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/ "Each Philmont expedition or group must have at least three BSA registered adult advisers for Scout groups. Three advisers must be at least 21 years of age. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. Each crew is required to have a majority of youth participants, and the maximum number of adults (over 21) is four per crew. Participants 18 through 20 years of age may be counted as youth or adult crew members. " But only two on "Crews": https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/crewrequirements/ Would someone please elaborate on the difference?? Also, same page, says WFA/CPR can bet met by youth: "Philmont requires that each crew have three participants who have completed Wilderness First Aid and three participants with CPR training. Current certification cards must be uploaded int the Gateway to verify this requirement. With three Wilderness First Aiders and three CPR trained members on the trek, the crew will be better able to handle emergencies. This requirement can be met by youth and/or adult participants."

Your source have any intel on when this might happen? We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

Trained youth can meet the quota, no??

We get this all the time... Our council and district calendar is slap full of activities. If a Patrol Leaders Council wanted to, they could simply attend all these events, and not have to plan much at all in the way of outdoor activities. But, the PLC in our unit simply does not want to attend the events. The are often sub-par events, with many units attending with youth who simply do not act according to the Scout Oath and Law. Since our Troop is large, our PLC plans events that they want to do, and that, then, are well attended. These have built a great unit identity and sense of Troop cohesion... and our PLC wants to guard that, as I understand it. District and Council volunteers and professionals often ask me why our Troop does not attend their events. I answer simply, "Because our PLC has chosen to do other events." There are a great many volunteers and professionals out there who actually think that unit adults should tell the youth where to go and what to do.

In the same boat with you, brother. There is so much to be done to have a great (or even good) Scouting program, and so few people doing the work. I wear so many different hats at unit, district, and council level, that most of my day is spent doing Scout-stuff. My wife, like yours, thinks it is too much. Hope you find your best path.

Shhhhh!! This is our dirty little secret! Don't tell! You shall not reveal that we have subverted the ideal of supporting a unit program in long term camp, and changed it instead into an individual's "pay your fee, get your MB" scheme to pump out Eagle Scouts and generate council revenue. Into the doghouse with you!

Once upon a time, a member of Greenwich council told me that, since the endowment was so large, and (somehow) unencumbered by national, that the Board in this council could choose their CE without input from National... and did. When threatened with charter removal, the response to National was something like, "Fine, we'll take our multi-million dollar endowment and choose another program for our youth." So National left them alone. Could not verify this was true, though... Can anyone out there confirm that?

That was her Gold Award Project for GSUSA, not an Eagle Scout Service Project for Scouting America. Her ESSP was for Richfield Heritage Preserve.

No BSA Accident Insurance coverage for them, I wonder??

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-938-24-Range-and-Target-Activities-Manual_8.30.pdf See page 12. Only program levels above Cub Scouts can conduct archery events outside of a "Scouting America Accredited Camp". Need more details other than provided in the story, though...

There are no minimum age and qualifications for that role. The Aquatics Supervision manual, which is the ultimate printed authority, says on page 6-6, under Safe Swim Defense (SSD), (emphasis added), 4. Response Personnel (Lifeguards) Every swimming activity must be closely and continuously monitored by a trained rescue team on the alert for and ready to respond during emergencies. Professionally trained lifeguards satisfy this need when provided by a regulated facility or tour operator. When lifeguards are not provided by others, the adult supervisor must assign at least two rescue personnel, with additional numbers to maintain a ratio of one rescuer to every 10 participants. The supervisor must provide instruction and rescue equipment and assign areas of responsibility as outlined in this book. The qualified supervisor, the designated response personnel, and the lookout work together as a safety team. An emergency action plan should be formulated and shared with participants as appropriate. If the other elements of Safe Swim Defense are in place, water rescues will seldom be needed. Most lifeguards at Scout summer camps, many of whom work several seasons, are never called upon to make a rescue. The same should be true at unit swims. Even so, there is always some chance of an unexpected medical emergency or other situation that could incapacitate a person in the water. Fortunately, rescues in a controlled situation are relatively safe, simple, and easy to learn. Danger could arise if a would-be rescuer is a poor swimmer ill-trained and ill-equipped for the situation, or if water conditions are hazardous. However, hazardous water situations would violate the third tenet of Safe Swim Defense and should not be present at a unit swim site. Chapter 10 will alert the reader to skills that should be mastered to ensure victim and rescuer safety, the equipment that supports those skills, and situations that should be included in emergency action plans. Older youth and adults who have completed the Lifesaving merit badge, Swimming and Water Rescue, are candidates for response personnel, as are those who have American Red Cross or other professional lifeguard training. Other good swimmers may be used to maintain the required 1 to 10 ratio if coached in basic surveillance and rescue techniques. The line-and-tender procedure for the First Class rank is one such technique. Adult leaders, including the qualified supervisor, may serve as response personnel for an entire activity that is not too long. Short breaks in concentration are provided during buddy checks. If youth are used, they will generally need to be rotated so that they too may enjoy the activity. The emergency action plan may specify that response personnel with more training will handle special situations, such as a spinal injury, whereas all response personnel may respond when a reaching rescue is indicated. Response personnel will generally work as buddy pairs, with each buddy monitoring the other. Note that council maintained and operated swimming areas, such as those at council camps, are subject to state codes and typically must have professionally trained lifeguards on duty. Regulatory requirements for the number, training, and supervision of those lifeguards supercede Safe Swim Defense protocols for response personnel for unit swims. That is, council camps are “regulated facilities” that must use professionally trained lifeguards in numbers mandated by statutes. The 1:10 ratio for lay rescue personnel does not apply. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics_34346.pdf A lot to unpack there... basically, read Chapter 10, and if your rescue team has those skills, you are good to go. Minimum number of people to conduct a unit swim? Four... 1. Lookout 2 & 3. Rescue team 4. A "swimmer" Any two of those four could be the 21+ year olds, one for SSD Supervision, and the second to cover your two-deep requirement for the event. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some "qualifications" available to you, as an adult leader to select from, to meet this point of SSD: (not all inclusive, and listed in decreasing order of "trust" (my opinion only)...) A. Go to National Camping School and become a Scouting America Aquatics Instructor, and train your troop. B. Become a certified lifeguard through an accredited agency (American Red Cross, American Lifeguard Association, United States Lifesaving Association, etc, etc, etc) C. Become a Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue Instructor, and train your troop... D. Become Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue certified E. Lifesaving Merit Badge F. Swimming Merit Badge G. Swim and rescue skills up to First Class. As the adult leader assuming responsibility for the safe conduct of the swim, you determine whether you meet the SSD point of : All swimming and activity afloat must be supervised by mature and conscientious adults, age 21 or older, who - understand and knowingly accept responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in their care, - are experienced in the particular activity, - are confident in their ability to respond appropriately in an emergency, and - are trained and committed to the nine points of Scouting America’s Safety Afloat and/ or the eight points of Safe Swim Defense. Good luck!

Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.... the definition of insanity 😜

Greetings! Welcome to the forum. Hope you get, give, and share some good advice and experience here.

Thanks for your volunteer service. At some point, the uphill battle becomes too steep to continue. If you have no other options, discreetly find a good home you can recommend to your Scouts, and get them transitioned there ASAP. Recommend you not wait until the Troop does not recharter, then do the transfers... that could cause a break in continuity that may cause some to drop all together. Do you already have a solid unit they could go to?

SMH

In the military we would say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (attributed to Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, Prussian) The Scouting version of that is, "No plan survives contact with reality." And Churchill said, ".... the best generals are those who arrive at the results of planning without being tied to plans." The Scouting version would be, "The best Patrol Leaders are those who accomplish the goal without being tied to the plan." Many, many more quotes along these lines show the wisdom of planning, and then not being adamant that you stick to the plan you have made, come hell or high water...

No, it isn't. Did you read my original post? I train to standard, and keep a record of their training. I would posit your statement should be presented the other way around, "... do not fall for certification instead of training..." Esse quam videre.