Eagle94-A1

Blue and Gold should be in February as thatis Scout Anniversary Month. But I know some units push it back to March since December is essentially a loss with Christmas holidays. Biggest concern the leaders at my RT is Crossover in the December through March timeframe. According to the literature out so far, You cannot start on AOL badge until after June 1st prior to 5th grade. All of our packs start working on AOL requirements simoultaneosly with the Webelos badge. And as soon as they finish Webelos badge, they then work on AOL exclusively. So we have Cub Scouts crossing over to Boy Scouts in December through March. But the 7 months to earn rank, combined with the facts A) that all of the packs I've been familiar with over the past 32 years do not have a formal summer program (only 2 had any type of summer program) ; B) Most packs don't meet during the Christmas and other holidays; and C) you cannot start work on the AOL badge until 5th grade we have some leaders extremely concerned. Predictions are that we won't have them finished AOL until May, and htey won't be ready for summer camp.

http://www.scouting.org/Home/programupdates.aspx These are the biggest changes to theCub Scout program in over 40 years, and probably longer. In a nutshell All ranks will require 7 "Adventures" that consist of 2 den meetings, 1 activity, and a pack meeting to get recognized. Each adventure will be either a belt loop (T-W-B) or Pin ( Webelos). The Webelos badge is no longer required for AOL. Some requirements for the adventures working with other dens, visiting a pack committee meeting, etc. More outdoor activities including Camping.

I know in August 1982, Tiger Cubs became a BSA program for 2nd graders. 3rd grade or 8 years old was when Cub Scout began. Wolf in 3rd, Bear in 4th, and Webelos in 5th. That's why some religious programs have 1 religious award for Tiger and Wolves, and one for Bears and Webelos.

Just out of curiousity, what happens if a group wins the lottery, but then backs out? Is there a waiting list? Like I mentioned previously, we have a troop that won the Sea Base lottery, and when it was announced on their facebook page, it appeared as if this was the first time the parents of the Scouts heard about it. The leader is know for doing spur of the moment things, and some have speculated that his troop signing up for Sea Base is one of them. Especially since he was trying to sign up for Philmont with another troop in the district the month before. I know that these activities are major events that take planning even before signing up for the lottery. So I wonder how serious their bid is, and whether it will prevent another troop that is serious from going.

One of the issues I've encountered is that summer camp is a "bonding time" that allows acceptance of the younger scouts more easily than if they didn't attend. In my expereince, not only did the guys in my den who went to camp come back way ahead of me advancement wise, but more importantly were accepted by the rest of the troop. By not going through that experience, I had some challenges with my patrol and troop. I did quit. Thankfully I eventually found another troop to be in. I've seen the same thing happen,especially in NSPs where folks are coming from different dens and/or packs. Campign together, but especially summer camp, get them together. We have scouts in one patrol now who did not go to summer camp, or camp much with the patrol, and they are still in the " new guy" phase despite being in the troop a year. We have another Scout right now who has fun with the troop, but within his NSP he has issues. Part of the problem is that the NSP hasn't camped together yet and had some of the shared responsibility and working together yet. Last camp out we had to merge the 2 guys with another patrol. Would not be a good idea to put two new scouts by themselves in a campsite and expect them to be successful. But the camping will help with issues. Summer camp will be the defining factor.

It will take approximately 7 months to earn AOL in the new program. 1 "adventure" is 2 den meetings, a "Go See It," and a Pack Meeting. Hence 1 month. Grant you every pack does things differently. In my neck of the woods, Round Ups are not finished until mid to late October. grant you at Webelos it doesn't affect ya as much, but Tigers and Wolves, most definitely. And December is a wash because of Christmas holidays. Now my pack and others tend not to meet on school is not in session, i.e. holidays and teacher workdays. While Holidays are unerstadnable, the work days tend to be the same day we meet, and it causes issues. As for Cross Over in Spring of 5th grade, back my day, early to mid 1980s ( when Tigers was its own stand alone program), May was the traditional Crossover month. Webelos was only a year long, so you had to earn Webelos and AOL in a year. My problem with it was that it did not give new Boy Scouts and parents enough time to get them ready for summer camp. In my case I crossed over the week before Memorial Day, and had about 3 weeks to come up with the money to go to camp. I could not afford it. Also my mom really didn't know the troop's leadership and was uncomfortable with me going for that reason as well. I personally like the 1.5 year format of Webelos of the current program. Give them time to get things done and have fun, but also give them time to get into the troop, get comfortable, and save up the money to go to summer camp.

Somewhere I read in the materials out, sorry I cannot find them at the moment, is that 4th graders can only work on the Webelos badge requirements. Once they finish 4th grade, or June 1st, THEN they can work on AOL requirements. Whereas now as soon as they finish Webelos badge, they can work on AOL. So if you cannot work on AOL until June 1st, and the pack doesn't really meet until September, then you are looking at a May Crossover. We've found that the Webelos are chomping at the bit to be Boy Scouts in December. It also gives them, and I've found the parents, more time to get to know the troop and get them ready to go to summer camp. I am hoping I misread that or misunderstood the materials it came from. I know BSA is pushing towards a year round Cub Scout program like Boy Scouts, but the majority of packs are inactive over the summer, and the few that do meet are not having formal meetings.

'90, I'd call them. They may not have done the lottery yet after all. That same SM said he made reservations for summer camp this year, and when I went to the camp's leader's meeting, they were not listed.

Agree with you 110% In regards to day camp, to use a saying from my old home council camp, "she was pulling stuff out of the magic sphincter." Day Camp had lots of issues under her. A very large portion of them went away when she was removed. In regards to other events, what saves her is that they are sponsored events by local organizations. She is responsible for organizing the event and some supplies like ribbons, trophies etc. The civic organization supply the manpower and other supplies like the ramp or track. The events are good, but some of problems happen over and over again, when there is an easy solution that she won't do.And if something happens to her, the event will have issues.She was sick for PWD, and for a variety of reasons PWD started 45 minutes late as a result.

BLW, Of the four packs I'm familiar with ( mine, and three friends') all of them will continue to use the current program for the current 4th grade Webelos. Some of the reasons given are the following 1. Doesn't make sense for the boys and their parents to buy new books that tehy will only use for a few months 2. Doesn't make sense to have them redo some activities they already done because of the way the new requirements are written. 3. For 2 packs, they do not want to do anything that may disrupt their scheduled December Crossover date. And the new program looks like it will take a lot longer to earn AOL.

SSScout, I may be one of the few folks who is for the merger. We are already sharing a DD with the 2 districts, but maintaining our own district. None of the three districts have received the support we use to have because of conflicting schedules, priorities, etc. that the professionals have with juggling 3 districts. i know as a DE back itneh day, dealing with just my district was a challenge. I can't imagine how our DD does it. I think consolidating would be beneficial. But before I commit, I want as much information as possible. But in all honesty I think the compromise solution of 3 separate districts with 2 pros (which we have a vacancy AGAIN [emphasis) is nto working out well at all. Qwazse, If the merger does occur, she will not be moving into a district position. She does not like "council" and does things her way. Which is one of the reasons she was removed as day camp director: she refused to go to the council day camp meetings when the NCAP program was being reviewed. We found folks willing to take charge of day camp, and when told about the leadership changes, she hung up on the person. More info: I found out that the strong district is opposed to the merger. The feel that my district and the other will "free load" on them. Politically they have very powerful influence on the council. I hate politics, all I care about is giving the youth the best possible expereince.

Did you get in? I know one troop in our council that got in, but from the response I'm seeing from the SM's announcement that they got a spot, seems as if no one in the troop knew he was even applying.

Some background on why there is talk of merging. 1) Council is facing economic difficulties like everyone in today's economy. 2 years ago there was talk about redistricting since we downsized on the number of Pros. However there was stiff resistance to that. As a compromise they reduced the number of pros, but kept the same number of districts. A Dist. Director and DE are suppose to cover 3 districts. However, It is a lot of stress on the pros as you can imagine, and we have been running through DEs. Right now my DD is responsible for all 3 districts as he has no DE working with him at the moment. 2) One of the districts involved was for a period of 5-8 years, merged with another district involved with the merger. The volunteers wanted their own district again. Certain goals were given to them in order to get their own district again, They met them, and kept them for about 2 years, but then started slipping down again. The are now in worse shape than when they were merged the first time. 3) The activities chair is not the reason for the merger obviously. But an FYI, she is the reason why no one volunteers to help on the district level for cubmobile and pinewood derby. And no one feels comfortable enough to take over those activities. Day Camp was taken away from her when folks got fed up and got the certs needed to run it. And the folks in the "strong" district have an excellent Cub Scout program and won't deal with her at all. 4) I was told that it would be 1 DD with a parapro for my current district and part of the neighboring district the we will merge into. 5) Currently our district doesn't have a Venturing side. However we just started a crew. 6) My impression and gut feeling about the professional leadership: they don't want the mergers because it will negatively affect service. But the current compromise of keeping the same number of but using fewer staff is having a more negative impact since professional staff now have 2 or 3 different districts they are dealing with instead of 1. They admit they cannot do a proper job. 7) A volunteer mentioned selling some of the camps, and both pros and volunteers said "NO" Please keep it coming.

I see we have a lot of folks looking, but no one posting. While I was trying to get others opinions and experiences first, I'll go ahead and start this conversation from my point of view on the Cub Scout side of things. I post the Boy Scout side once I'm done. YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE! (and the caps are me begging for mercy and getting your thoughts and expereinces. ) Pro-Merger In the district, all Cub Scout activities except Day Camp and Webeloree are run by one person. And she tends to run people who want to help off. “New†district Cub Scout leadership will mean more people volunteering on the Cub Scout side in the long term. Short term may take some time for current Cub leader to volunteer on the district level because of the negative past expereinces with the present chair. But again long term I think it will work out fine. More activities for Cub Scouts to do beyond the pack level. Currently 2 district Cub Scout events, and a third specifically for Webelos. While some activities will merge, Pine Wood Derby comes to mind, activities that only one district has, i.e. Cub Spring camp out, Cubmobile, Webeloree,etc, would enhance program. More outdoor activities. Current Cub Scout activities chair believes “Cubs don’t need to camp.†A district level camp out is needed, especially with the new changes into the cub scout program. More Cub Scouts involved in activities, saving event costs. Possibility of Para-Professional to assist is a definite plus over current situation. Contra-Merger Increased travel to Roundtables. Grant you this will affect the minimum of people in my distric as CS Roundtables usually have 2-3 packs present. Increased travel time to some events, i.e. Pinewood derby, Cubmobile, etc. that may turn some folks off. “Sentimental†and “Parochial Attitudes†may affect volunteers. Sometimes folks do not accept the changes. Although I see this more with the long term Cub Scout leaders, of which there are only a few.

Attending district committee meeting last night, I was informed that I was going to be one placed on a sub committee to look at the district merging with 2 others. I have seen the writing on the wall for over a year now, this isn't the first time it's come up, but it is the first time that they are actively looking into it and getting folks together to see if it is feasible or not. I am looking for your expereinces, both positive and negative in regards to merging. All aspects: logistics, social, morale, activities, infighting, etc. A few things. 1) I know each and every situation is different, so things that happened one place may not happen in another. 2) I do have my thoughts on this topic, but I want to make sure that I have all may bases covered by learning as many of the possible scenarios others have encountered as possible. Thanks in advance. Eagle

Rick, You are so correct in that there are over 500 different Native American cultures. And each has their own beliefs, customs, etc. Sorry if I generalized. I know better. Also please bear with me if I use poor wording below. I am not rying to denigrate or lessen the significance of anything. It's just my brain is frozen form all the snow and I can't think properly at the moment. Originally I learned from the Houma of SE Louisiana, but the concept of gifts has been reinfoced here is NC with the Haliwa-Saponi, Lumbee, etc. One of my theories, and again this is my theory based upon powwows, why alot of cultural borrowing occured is because of WWII. A large percentage of Native Americans served, and met folks from all over the US. That included other Natives. Powwows is a Plains activity, and other areas really didn't really do. When folks returned home from the war, friends would maintain contact and visit each other. the concept of the powwow spread and was modified over time. I've seen this in some of the differences between powwows in Louisiana and in NC. As for losing culture, religion, and language, a very good case study on that is the Houma. The French Jesuits did a very good job of converting them to Catholicism. They also did a great job of teaching them French. During the Spanish and US colonial periods, French-speaking traders almost exclusively worked with the Houma. A lot of the elders when I was there spoke only French, and today many speak French and English. I also have one of their histories that is written in English and... French.

I was taught the gift is a sign of respect and it's good manners to do. I was told pipe tobacco is the best gift as there are religious and purification uses for it. Sweetgrass is another item that is good to get, but harder to get. Alcohol is a no-no, but other drinks and food are OK.

JS, 1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (And yes, that is me screaming at ya in a welcoming manner.) 2) The use of Native American culture in Scouting goes back to the very beginnings of the Scouting Movement in 1907, and some would say even before with Burnhill's influence on B-P, Seton's Woodcraft Indians, etc. 3) The perception of Scouting within the Native American community varies from individual to individual. I've met folks who had reservations about Boy Scouts and their use of Native American culture, and I have had others rejoice and gladly shared with us. See post # 76 for info on how BSA has helped Native American communities. 4) This conversation reminded me of an incident that happened after I wrote that post above. I was asked to teach Indian Lore MB at a merit badge college. Part of the reason I taught the class was OA related as we were trying to re-establish the Lodge American Indian Affairs (AIA) committee. I've found folks get interested in AIA through Indian Lore Merit Badge. I went all out on it. I brought the stuff I made, the reproductions, actual artifacts, everything I owned and some of the OA's stuff too. As Scouts are coming in they are looking at stuff, and you can tell they are really stating to get into it, and I am proud of all the work that went into setting up the room and getting ready for the class. Then a knot got into my stomach, and I felt like a ton of bricks hit me when I saw a Lakota Sioux lady walk into the room. She told me she wanted to see what was involved in doing the merit badge and "audit" my class. Talk about stressful. Here's someone who could not only teach the class, but could do a heck of a lot better job than I could becasue it is her culture! She sat quietly in the back, not saying a word until there was I question I could not answer, and stated as such. Then she raised her hand, asked if she could answer it, and then proceeded to answer the Scout's question ( that's how I found out she was Lakota). She then sat down and continued to say nothing. After class we talked. She told me she signed up to be a MBC for the merit badge, but wanted to see what the BSA was teaching, and what was expected of her as an MBC. She was impressed by what I knew and taught the kids. But more importantly she was impressed by my honesty in saying that I don't know answers, and how I suggested the Scouts look for the answers themselves (go to a powwow or other cultural event, being respectful, offering a small gift of tobacco to an elder to answer the question, and be willing for the elder to not answer the question if it involved religious or cultural significance). Her biggest concern was one you indirectly expressed, the notion of "Hollywood Indian" stereotypes of the 1950s and 60s. She saw that in Cub Scouts and wanted to know if that was something the BSA taught. She was glad she could teach the right way to do things.

CNY, I have to ditto what Stosh said. I can speak with first hand expereince that if the guy takes over, it will be a train wreck. The troop will lose boys, and wither and die. I found out SM of the troop with my pack's CO was stepping down when he asked me to be SM. I had Wolf and two wannabe Cubs and declined. While I do have some regrets, and yes I do get angry with myself at times for not doing becoming SM, I know it was best for me and my family. The new SM is exactly like the ASM you have described. They have lost Scouts to other troops or dropping altogether. They did not recruit any new Scouts this year. All went to other troops. And of the 5 new scouts from last year, only 1 remains. Here is the real aggrevating part, no matter what you or others say, you will be ignored. We had former leaders and other folks trying to mentor him and help him have a good program. We were ignored, told we don't know what we are talking about, and told that Scouting needs to change with the times and the "old stuff" doesn't work today. In my opinion, the troop will fold. They applied for Sea Base next year, and have a spot. So they may be around for longer than I anticipated. But within 5 years, and I'm thinking 3 since they are not recruiting, they will fold. Good luck.

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! ( a little late but, better late than never). 2) Before your Scouts pick patrols, I suggest they look at SCOUTSTUFF.ORG ( National Supply Division), http://www.patchtown.com/patrolpatches.aspx ( Patch Town), https://www2.advantageemblem.com/Home/Store.aspx (Advantage Emblem and Screen Printing), http://www.classb.com/bsa/patrolgear/ (Class B), and http://www.boyscoutstore.com/patches/custom-patrol-patches ( Boy Scout Store). 3) If they don't see anything they like, they can get custom made patches. They just need to provide the artwork. But that route is more expensive. We had teh situation where our NSP picked a name that didn't have a patrol medallion. When they realized they would have the custom route and the cost involved, they decided to pick a new name.

Thoughts and prayers are with you.

One thing that may be affecting the number of new Crossovers is that they may not have the cold weather gear needed to camp. I know my son's troop gets their new Scouts from the Pack in December. Their first weekend activity is in January, and it is a lock in. We drive to a nearby climbing wall, spend time climbing, and then do other activities when we come back. Last year it was First Aid. This year it was ILST. Oh, and the requisite goofing off time. One thing that isn't done on a formal basis, but does get talke about informally is gear.

Debbie 821, As others have pointed out the Guide to Safe Scouting does allow patrols to do day activities without any leaders, or 1 leader present. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. This exact same passage is found twice in the GTSS on pages 2 and 8. Further on in the GTSS is this passage Patrol Activities A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may participate in patrol activities with the permission of its Scoutmaster or Coach and parents/guardians. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities. PP 31-32. Don't take our word on it, look it up on the link and pages provided. Hope this helps.

'99, Not everyone has internet service as fast as you do. Heck I know of a pack whose CM doesn't even own a computer! As a district level volunteer, I liked UVTS, WOSM's MoP, and other record keeping programs. But now that I have to use UVTS, and SCOUTNET, I have major issues with the network and programs they are using. Heck I'm still waiting for SCOUTNET to transfer membership and training records between councils like it was promised to us back in 1998!

To BP's defense a bit, BSA did de-emphasise the "OUTING in ScOUTING" with 1972's Improved Scouting Program. From 1972 - 1979 you could earn Eagle without a single night of camping. IMHO, today we are seeing some of the repurcussions of that era. I know of at least one troop that has leaders who earned Eagle during that era, and they rarely camp. Another piece of the de-emphasis of the outdoors is the fact that you only need to do 4 camp outs a year to get Bronze level JTE. On the concept of STEM Scouts and why some are upset. BSA is really big on "branding." BSA went after the Baden-Powel Scout Association and made them change their name to Baden-Powell Service Association because it conflicted with the BSA's brand. Ditto with other organizations that used the term "Scout." (FYI BSA did sue GSUSA in the 1920s of the word "Scouts") . When most folks , especially those of us who have been around a while, hear the word Scout, we think of the outdoors. STEM Scouts has nothing to do with the outdoors. It is more in-line with Learning for Life and Exploring than Scouting. Let's face it, if any other organziation was to come up with a program like this and call it "Scouts," BSA would go after them. In fact, wasn't there a science based youth program out in CA a few years back that used "Scouts" in their name and BSA went after them?