Eagle94-A1

I see we have a lot of folks looking, but no one posting. While I was trying to get others opinions and experiences first, I'll go ahead and start this conversation from my point of view on the Cub Scout side of things. I post the Boy Scout side once I'm done. YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE! (and the caps are me begging for mercy and getting your thoughts and expereinces. ) Pro-Merger In the district, all Cub Scout activities except Day Camp and Webeloree are run by one person. And she tends to run people who want to help off. “New†district Cub Scout leadership will mean more people volunteering on the Cub Scout side in the long term. Short term may take some time for current Cub leader to volunteer on the district level because of the negative past expereinces with the present chair. But again long term I think it will work out fine. More activities for Cub Scouts to do beyond the pack level. Currently 2 district Cub Scout events, and a third specifically for Webelos. While some activities will merge, Pine Wood Derby comes to mind, activities that only one district has, i.e. Cub Spring camp out, Cubmobile, Webeloree,etc, would enhance program. More outdoor activities. Current Cub Scout activities chair believes “Cubs don’t need to camp.†A district level camp out is needed, especially with the new changes into the cub scout program. More Cub Scouts involved in activities, saving event costs. Possibility of Para-Professional to assist is a definite plus over current situation. Contra-Merger Increased travel to Roundtables. Grant you this will affect the minimum of people in my distric as CS Roundtables usually have 2-3 packs present. Increased travel time to some events, i.e. Pinewood derby, Cubmobile, etc. that may turn some folks off. “Sentimental†and “Parochial Attitudes†may affect volunteers. Sometimes folks do not accept the changes. Although I see this more with the long term Cub Scout leaders, of which there are only a few.

Attending district committee meeting last night, I was informed that I was going to be one placed on a sub committee to look at the district merging with 2 others. I have seen the writing on the wall for over a year now, this isn't the first time it's come up, but it is the first time that they are actively looking into it and getting folks together to see if it is feasible or not. I am looking for your expereinces, both positive and negative in regards to merging. All aspects: logistics, social, morale, activities, infighting, etc. A few things. 1) I know each and every situation is different, so things that happened one place may not happen in another. 2) I do have my thoughts on this topic, but I want to make sure that I have all may bases covered by learning as many of the possible scenarios others have encountered as possible. Thanks in advance. Eagle

Rick, You are so correct in that there are over 500 different Native American cultures. And each has their own beliefs, customs, etc. Sorry if I generalized. I know better. Also please bear with me if I use poor wording below. I am not rying to denigrate or lessen the significance of anything. It's just my brain is frozen form all the snow and I can't think properly at the moment. Originally I learned from the Houma of SE Louisiana, but the concept of gifts has been reinfoced here is NC with the Haliwa-Saponi, Lumbee, etc. One of my theories, and again this is my theory based upon powwows, why alot of cultural borrowing occured is because of WWII. A large percentage of Native Americans served, and met folks from all over the US. That included other Natives. Powwows is a Plains activity, and other areas really didn't really do. When folks returned home from the war, friends would maintain contact and visit each other. the concept of the powwow spread and was modified over time. I've seen this in some of the differences between powwows in Louisiana and in NC. As for losing culture, religion, and language, a very good case study on that is the Houma. The French Jesuits did a very good job of converting them to Catholicism. They also did a great job of teaching them French. During the Spanish and US colonial periods, French-speaking traders almost exclusively worked with the Houma. A lot of the elders when I was there spoke only French, and today many speak French and English. I also have one of their histories that is written in English and... French.

I was taught the gift is a sign of respect and it's good manners to do. I was told pipe tobacco is the best gift as there are religious and purification uses for it. Sweetgrass is another item that is good to get, but harder to get. Alcohol is a no-no, but other drinks and food are OK.

JS, 1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (And yes, that is me screaming at ya in a welcoming manner.) 2) The use of Native American culture in Scouting goes back to the very beginnings of the Scouting Movement in 1907, and some would say even before with Burnhill's influence on B-P, Seton's Woodcraft Indians, etc. 3) The perception of Scouting within the Native American community varies from individual to individual. I've met folks who had reservations about Boy Scouts and their use of Native American culture, and I have had others rejoice and gladly shared with us. See post # 76 for info on how BSA has helped Native American communities. 4) This conversation reminded me of an incident that happened after I wrote that post above. I was asked to teach Indian Lore MB at a merit badge college. Part of the reason I taught the class was OA related as we were trying to re-establish the Lodge American Indian Affairs (AIA) committee. I've found folks get interested in AIA through Indian Lore Merit Badge. I went all out on it. I brought the stuff I made, the reproductions, actual artifacts, everything I owned and some of the OA's stuff too. As Scouts are coming in they are looking at stuff, and you can tell they are really stating to get into it, and I am proud of all the work that went into setting up the room and getting ready for the class. Then a knot got into my stomach, and I felt like a ton of bricks hit me when I saw a Lakota Sioux lady walk into the room. She told me she wanted to see what was involved in doing the merit badge and "audit" my class. Talk about stressful. Here's someone who could not only teach the class, but could do a heck of a lot better job than I could becasue it is her culture! She sat quietly in the back, not saying a word until there was I question I could not answer, and stated as such. Then she raised her hand, asked if she could answer it, and then proceeded to answer the Scout's question ( that's how I found out she was Lakota). She then sat down and continued to say nothing. After class we talked. She told me she signed up to be a MBC for the merit badge, but wanted to see what the BSA was teaching, and what was expected of her as an MBC. She was impressed by what I knew and taught the kids. But more importantly she was impressed by my honesty in saying that I don't know answers, and how I suggested the Scouts look for the answers themselves (go to a powwow or other cultural event, being respectful, offering a small gift of tobacco to an elder to answer the question, and be willing for the elder to not answer the question if it involved religious or cultural significance). Her biggest concern was one you indirectly expressed, the notion of "Hollywood Indian" stereotypes of the 1950s and 60s. She saw that in Cub Scouts and wanted to know if that was something the BSA taught. She was glad she could teach the right way to do things.

CNY, I have to ditto what Stosh said. I can speak with first hand expereince that if the guy takes over, it will be a train wreck. The troop will lose boys, and wither and die. I found out SM of the troop with my pack's CO was stepping down when he asked me to be SM. I had Wolf and two wannabe Cubs and declined. While I do have some regrets, and yes I do get angry with myself at times for not doing becoming SM, I know it was best for me and my family. The new SM is exactly like the ASM you have described. They have lost Scouts to other troops or dropping altogether. They did not recruit any new Scouts this year. All went to other troops. And of the 5 new scouts from last year, only 1 remains. Here is the real aggrevating part, no matter what you or others say, you will be ignored. We had former leaders and other folks trying to mentor him and help him have a good program. We were ignored, told we don't know what we are talking about, and told that Scouting needs to change with the times and the "old stuff" doesn't work today. In my opinion, the troop will fold. They applied for Sea Base next year, and have a spot. So they may be around for longer than I anticipated. But within 5 years, and I'm thinking 3 since they are not recruiting, they will fold. Good luck.

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! ( a little late but, better late than never). 2) Before your Scouts pick patrols, I suggest they look at SCOUTSTUFF.ORG ( National Supply Division), http://www.patchtown.com/patrolpatches.aspx ( Patch Town), https://www2.advantageemblem.com/Home/Store.aspx (Advantage Emblem and Screen Printing), http://www.classb.com/bsa/patrolgear/ (Class B), and http://www.boyscoutstore.com/patches/custom-patrol-patches ( Boy Scout Store). 3) If they don't see anything they like, they can get custom made patches. They just need to provide the artwork. But that route is more expensive. We had teh situation where our NSP picked a name that didn't have a patrol medallion. When they realized they would have the custom route and the cost involved, they decided to pick a new name.

Thoughts and prayers are with you.

One thing that may be affecting the number of new Crossovers is that they may not have the cold weather gear needed to camp. I know my son's troop gets their new Scouts from the Pack in December. Their first weekend activity is in January, and it is a lock in. We drive to a nearby climbing wall, spend time climbing, and then do other activities when we come back. Last year it was First Aid. This year it was ILST. Oh, and the requisite goofing off time. One thing that isn't done on a formal basis, but does get talke about informally is gear.

Debbie 821, As others have pointed out the Guide to Safe Scouting does allow patrols to do day activities without any leaders, or 1 leader present. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. This exact same passage is found twice in the GTSS on pages 2 and 8. Further on in the GTSS is this passage Patrol Activities A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may participate in patrol activities with the permission of its Scoutmaster or Coach and parents/guardians. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities. PP 31-32. Don't take our word on it, look it up on the link and pages provided. Hope this helps.

'99, Not everyone has internet service as fast as you do. Heck I know of a pack whose CM doesn't even own a computer! As a district level volunteer, I liked UVTS, WOSM's MoP, and other record keeping programs. But now that I have to use UVTS, and SCOUTNET, I have major issues with the network and programs they are using. Heck I'm still waiting for SCOUTNET to transfer membership and training records between councils like it was promised to us back in 1998!

To BP's defense a bit, BSA did de-emphasise the "OUTING in ScOUTING" with 1972's Improved Scouting Program. From 1972 - 1979 you could earn Eagle without a single night of camping. IMHO, today we are seeing some of the repurcussions of that era. I know of at least one troop that has leaders who earned Eagle during that era, and they rarely camp. Another piece of the de-emphasis of the outdoors is the fact that you only need to do 4 camp outs a year to get Bronze level JTE. On the concept of STEM Scouts and why some are upset. BSA is really big on "branding." BSA went after the Baden-Powel Scout Association and made them change their name to Baden-Powell Service Association because it conflicted with the BSA's brand. Ditto with other organizations that used the term "Scout." (FYI BSA did sue GSUSA in the 1920s of the word "Scouts") . When most folks , especially those of us who have been around a while, hear the word Scout, we think of the outdoors. STEM Scouts has nothing to do with the outdoors. It is more in-line with Learning for Life and Exploring than Scouting. Let's face it, if any other organziation was to come up with a program like this and call it "Scouts," BSA would go after them. In fact, wasn't there a science based youth program out in CA a few years back that used "Scouts" in their name and BSA went after them?

Yep, a patrol's day activities do not need adults. And yes if there is an adult, only 1 would be needed since there would not be "one-on-one" contact. Wife was concerned that she would need to stay home with me since son is having a patrol meeting at my house. Not needed since A) it's a patrol day activity ( meeting) and no adults are needed and B) there won't be any one-on-one contact anyway.

TAHAWK, There are so many problem with Common Core, that many school districts, and some states, are doing away with it. The math examples I've read are so out there, that folks with math and engineering degrees have issues with it. Read on about my history comments. Pack, I couldn't read the entire link as it was to painful and aggrevating. First and foremost, I hate group work in a school setting. Some folks in the group do all the work, while others sit in the background. Other times, directions and goals are given out, only to find out that folks go off on tangents that have no relation to the assignement. Yet everyone in the group gets the same grade for good or bad. As for the approach used, it is pure malarky. Nothing is ever done in a vacuum. In order to fully undserstand something, you have to know the events and context that led to the document. I also don't like the fact that from there appears to be little to no individual critical thinking, despite appearances to the contrary. A lot of group think. T2Eagle, Depending upon the students I had, I agree that it would be a challenge for them to realize that the answer is in the previous paragraph. I worked in one of the night school for working adults programs. Most of my students were older, and would have no problem as they had some critical thinkming skills via pre-1980s educational theories. I did have a few younger students, going to school in the late1990s, early 2000s. An aside. I was an education minor in the early to mid 1990s. One of my profs was a fiesty, retired HS principle. She was a mix of the mandatory educational theory, but more importantly real world practicality. She wasn't a fan of alot of the educational theories that have eventually evolved into Common Core. A lot of the predictions she made about the failure of these theories is coming to pass.

My thoughts. 1) have the PLs or buddies talk to the ones who missed. We had a few who did not like to camp, and they did drop. We have one who is highly allergic to peanuts and he has very protective parents. We have one whose mom said no camping in cold weather. And we got a few who can only camp when dad has custody. And we have one extremely bizarre situation where oldest brother can go only if ex-step dad is not camping, and younger half-brother can only camp when dad has custody. 2) Scheduling. I know growing up, my troop had to deal with 14 different school calendars. No joke, we had a public middle school calendar, public high school calendar, and 12 different private/parochial calendars to deal with. Scheduling was a night mare. 3) Parents. As someone already stated, parents may not be comfortable yet with troop's leaders. We have a sitation where Mom will not send the boy camping unless either his dad or I are camping.

Good grief, I am so glad I homeschool. As a one time historian, I can tell you that is not how I was taught to read and understand historical documents. Nor did I teach my college students that either. You needed to know the time, events, etc to understand the document.

For me, this is Learning for Life under a different name. Me personally, they need to get rid of the "Scouts" in STEM Scouts and there is no OUT inthe program, only classrooms and labs.

I have a hard enough time doing the commissioner UVTS inputs. SCOUTNET is a pain to use, and I have high speed internet. I live in a rural area, and I remember it taking 4+ hours to download the online YPT due to connectivity. So I know we have units not logging in their service. Heck we have units not doing internet advancement still.

Make sure you don't get the jac shirt wet. While wool will keep you warm when wet, it bleeds. One of my uniform shirts has pink spots from when I was in the rain with the jac shirt on.

I fi've heard of the program, but not details.

In the troop I'm talking about, all of the scouts save one are First Class through Life. They have one Tenderfoot. Also to go along with #5 above. 5A) All the youth positions are appointed by the SM. Reason being to give everyone a chance at a POR.

Exactly! One of the reasons they are losing scouts. From talking to scouts who have left; 1) Meetings feel like school. 2) For those who have the MB already, boredom, misbehavior, or playing basketball are the options. 3) Focus is soley on the "older" scouts: working MBs and getting Eagle. The new Scouts are not learning the basic T-2-1 skills. 4) Not enough camping and fun. 5) Adults doing the work (which is really sad since they sent 2 Scouts to NYLT who came back fired up and ready to go, only to have the SM and adults shut them down) One of their scouts transerred and got Eagle with the new troop. Guess what, unlike the Eagles in his old troop, he's staying around for 2 reasons. 1) He wants the Hornaday Award ( he's planning a project at this time) and 2) HE'S HAVING FUN WITH THE NEW TROOP (caps for emphasis, OK maybe a little shouting in joy )

Peri, Alas, the troop in question is getting the parents registered as MBCs and they are doing MBs as their only program. Most camp outs they do now are MB weekends. One scout that transferred to us said the campout with us in which the scouts did trailblazing and goofing off was the best camp out ever. I can't wait to see him on one of our water weekends. Now that we got 2 trailer hitch equipped vehicles, SM can bring sailboat, and the other driver can bring the canoes. edited: reminds me of a Cub Scout pack with the leaders doing all the work

Peri, Sorry about preaching to ya. The entire "meetings = MB sessions" idea is hitting me personally. As you know, one of the troops in my neck of the woods is doing just that. While the boys in the troop are advancing rapidly, the troop is losing Scouts left and right . Way it looks to me, troop won't be around in 5 years, if not sooner.

Peri, A lot of folks, when the phrase "merit badges sessions at meetings," or however you want to phrase it, think completeing the entire MB at the end of X number of meetings. The Troop Program Features, or as some old fogeys will slip in at times "Woods Wisdom," focuses on skills rather than completing the MB. Can a MB be earned with a little extra effort, yep. I know when we did canoeing back in May for the trip, we covered requirements 2-12 either at the lake in training, and/or on the trip iteself. For those who want the MB, requirements 1 and 13 remain. Again the idea is to focus on the skills and prep work needed on the monthly trip, not necessarily getting the MB.