Twocubdad

I would recommend buying for yourself a copy of "Advancement Committee Guidelines and Procedures" from the Scout Shop. You need to be familiar with the policies. It's been suggested before, but specifically the policies for denying an advancement require that any denial of advancement by a unit leader (either failing to pass a requirement or conduct a conference), unit committee or Board of Review requires three things: 1) a letter, in writing, giving the reasons for denial 2) a plan of action which will allow the Scout to advance in a timely manner, and 3) an explaination of the procedures for appealing the decision to the next level. If your son gets any guff about getting any of this material or about meeting with the troop committee, take it directly to the District Advancement Chairman. And let your son know that there are a lot of Scouters out there who think he is being given a raw deal. This isn't how Scouts behave. Tenacity is one of the main traits of an Eagle Scout. Tell him to hang in there and don't let the bums get him down. It will pay off in the end and he will prevail. Oh, and find another troop for his brother. I would guess his career isn't going to be too easy after this.

Several years ago I was in the bunch of parents back at the campsite while the boys ran wild. On of the moms camp stomping into the campsite yelling at me that the boys were running through the woods and shooting each other with squirt guns and someone was going to fall and there are these big roots all across the trail and some body was going to get hurt and I needed to do something. As for the thing in the amphitheater, that sounds to me like more of a nuisance than a real safety issue. Believe me, I can't stand having a bunch of kids screaming and misbehaving when they should be settling down. But this sounds more like a "Hey, kids. Go play over there" solution than an issue for the health and safety guys. At any Scout event I've every attended, there are plenty of "in charge" type around who will let the guys and parents know if they are out of line. The dad of the injured lad may have been a few bricks short of a full cube, but I try not to ascribe too much to how folks behave in situations like that. Who knows what was going through his mind. "Helen," I said. "We're at Cub Scout camp. The Council spent $3.5 million so these kids can run through the woods squirting each other. That's what we're here for. If someone falls, the first aid kit is on the picnic table." She stood there for a minute, staring at me with her lips pursed and her hands on her hips. After awhile, she took a deep breath, said, "You know, you're right." Then pulled up a chair, joined the adult conversation and let the kids run through the woods. Now I'm sitting there, looking like a genius to the other parents, but honestly, it usually doesn't work out that well. More times than not, the mom won't let it be. But those little successes are like the eagle on a par 4 that keep us playing through 12 rounds of double-bogey golf. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

If it makes you feel any better, the money for West fellowships doesn't just go any old place in the council. It must be donated to the council's endowment fund, meaning that the donation -- $1,000 or more -- is held in trust and the council can access only the interest generated by the donation. (Actually it's more complicated than that, but you get the idea.) The idea is that the donation will be generating income which will benefit the council for years, not just the paying the power bill this month. I think this is a pretty good deal and I've arranged for a number of West Fellowships over the years. Of course you can do what you like, but I would consider taking $1,000 of th $5,000 and making a West contribution in the orignal donor's name. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Yes, to a point. I can also tell you it's because there are a lot of troops who want that kind of program. For years our council camp has lost many troops to a neighboring council's camp because boys can earn 6-8-10 merit badges at the other camp. A good Scouting friend of mine takes his troop there for that very reason. The Scouts like it and the parents feel like they really get their money's worth. Unfortunately, our camp seems like they're drinking the same Kool-Aid. This year they've added another session of MB in the afternoon and cut the time for troop/patrol/individual activities in half. They're justification is that they need to offer a wide varieties of programs which appeal to different troops. We are free to allow our guys to take all those MBs if they like or not. I suppose I'm just an old curmudgeon for thinking the time we spend together as a troop doing activities in the afternoon build comraderie, teamwork and morale. This type of camp program puts the onus on the Scoutmaster to just say no. I've spent the past two weeks fighting with parents in our troop who are ticked with me because I've taken off the summer camp table the three citizenships and communications for our Scouts. But I don't believe those are appropriate MBs for summer camp so I'm exercising my discretion and not signing blue cards.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

They are correct that there is no official "Eagle Pledge." It's all just stuff made up for the ceremony. I recently revised our troop's Eagle ceremony which includes both a "charge" and promise. ps56k, or anyone else who would like a copy should contact me by PM and I'll be glad to forward a copy. Not that it's any better than any thing anyone else has, but it's a start.

I stopped reading this thread after it was made clear that the answer to the original question had been clearly answered. That was after about the fourth reply. Nearly 100 posts later I figured I would see what the hub-bub was about. I glad to see I haven't missed anything. I'll go back to the "r" thread now.

I think we should all go on eBay and flame this guy -- flood him with a ton of emails about how unethical it is to sell ringer cars. Or maybe we could come up with a PWD Racer's Code of Ethics, have a bunch of them engraved and sell them on eBay at all price points and with the sales closing daily. That way, everyone who searches for PWD cars on eBay will get hit with pages of our Code of Ethics for sale. What, this guy couldn't figure out how to make money helping folks cheat on their taxes or convert guns to full-auto?

Wow, what an eye opener. I got on eBay and searched pinewood derby cars and got a real education. We're in the middle of NASCAR country, so like the Michigan guys we have a lot of dads who build really fast cars for a living (or, like the Big Three guys, used to as the economy has hit NASCAR too.) While Cubmaster, I came to understand that -- as in the real world -- the process was that folks would push the rules until the rules had to be updated. Our main rule was that all the parts had to be official BSA, not necessarily the one kit you were assigned, but all from BSA (you could get another kit of you totally screw up the first one.) But I would have never thought -- until I looked at eBay -- that people would do something so unethical as to go out and buy a ringer car. Interestingly I met my sister-in-law at business thing yesterday and she was telling me about my nephew's first PWD. The way she described the winning car looked just like "physics teacher" car on eBay.

The devil's in the details. In an event that becomes this involved, I would be surprised if at some point some of the adult leaders hadn't become involved. Do all the boys live within walking distance of the paintball range? How are they getting there. Are all of them paying with their own money? Does the range have a waiver for a parent to sign? Are we sure all this stuff is handled individually? Are you sure no one from the third or fourth patrol down the invitation list didn't go home and say "oh yeah, it's a Scout activity, the whole troop's going." Are you sure none of the ASMs haven't gotten behind the project? At some point this thing begins to waddle and quack like a troop activity. My point is that there is a fuzzy line beyond which the activity takes on the mantle of a troop activity. As SM, at that point I need to look out for the organization, step in and, at minimum, make sure everyone understands that this is not a troop-sanctioned event and that the scouts and parents are aware that the troop is not supervising. If we just sit there fat, dumb and happy then we are giving a wink and a nod to a violation of the rules. I've had situations where parents' expectations for unit leader involvement and supervision were different from that of the unit. I've gotten a earful from some unhappy moms even though nothing bad has ever happened. On the other hand, in a less convoluted example, I agree that coincidental membership in a patrol doesn't preclude boys from getting together and doing their own thing.

A group of boys, all members of the same patrol go do something together -- no adults, no uniforms, no troop approval, no tour permit. Something goes wrong and the injured part sues everyone in sight, including BSA. What do you think BSA's first defense argument will be?

Seems to me this is needs to be dealt with in terms of the chartered organization, not the BSA. What do the bylaws of the organization say? How was this guy selected to be IH? Maybe it's time for a corporate meeting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't illegal for the institutional head to be the cubmaster? I thought the only mutiple registrations are IH, COR and CC. I agree that you need to involve your commissioner and/or district executive before the unit blows up entirely.

So how do they propose that Scout's pay for project costs? Do they require the Scout to raise the money for the project himself (which may be a variation I could get behind)? Are they counting on parents to pony up, or is money from a parent considered a donation? I'd like to know more, but on it's face it seems like another of the stupid advancement policies people think up when they've been in the same position too long.

Having served on day camp staff for eight years, five as camp director and also teaching at day camp school, I would not try to do six different themes. Honestly, the theme isn't that important. It really gives you something to build your decorations, t-shirts and patches around and maybe one or two programs. The core program, the stuff the kids really come for, doesn't change much -- aquatics, crafts, shooting sports, sports and games, etc. As far as keeping boys interest over mutiple camps, the differences in location and facilities are going to drive enough changes (and keep you busy enough) to make each camp unique. One of the joys of working at day camp is having boys meet you at the mall and introduce you as "the man from camp who helped me catch my first fish," or go on and on about the climbing wall or water rockets. I've never had a Scout mention what a cool theme we had. That's just not what they are at camp for. Now the adults will focus on themes, but not the boys. My personal opinion is that changing themes every week will be a ton of extra work for marginal benefit. I'd have a nice long talk with the folks at council who are pushing the idea.

Unfortunately, Ea, the current commissioner model doesn't really build that friendly outsider relationship either. Commissioners are supposed to visit a unit, what, a couple times a year? On that basis, how will the UC know if the CC and SM are at each other's throats? I've always thought that the "arm's length" approach unit commissioners take to with their units is over done. For the majority of units in good shape, having a permanently assigned UC is a wasted resource. Many struggling units need more than advice. I would prefer to see commissioner SWAT teams trained to go into struggling units, roll up their sleeves and help run the unit. After a certain period of time, the units need to either stand on their own or be taken off life support.

Let me broaden this a bit. Weasel's troop politics aside, what do you all think about Scout taking citizenship, communications, family life, etc., at summer camp?

Mafaking -- I think you missed my point. For a patrol to be successful at the Scouting game, it takes both sets of skills. A patrol devoid of any Scout skill isn't going to have a successful campout regardless of the ability of its leaders. If the outdoor program is the laboratory in which leadership, teamwork and the other character development skills are learned, then Scoutcraft skills are the test tubes, beakers and buntsen burners with which we conduct the experiment. You are absolutely right -- this IS exactly like school work. And that's usually the example I use to explain it. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation with a gun to my head. But the years I spent taking math taught me a method of logical problem solving I use everday. Same story, different class: My older son is struggling with honors chemistry. He understands the material and "gets it" but is having a hard time keeping his grade up because he keeps missing little details in the assignments. He'll leave off a parenthesis at the end of an equation or forget the valence of a particular element and consequently gets the problems wrong. I keep trying to explain to him that the real, underlying, long-term lesson he needs to learn is precision. He'll probably never take another chemistry course again, but if this class teaches him to be more precise and accurate in his work, he has learned an invaluable lesson. Scouting works the same way. And, Barry, thank you for your remarks. That is a real compliment coming from one of the folks here whose opinion I respect a great deal.

For right now, only the ASMs and Troop Guides are authorized to sign off on requirements. Although this may be the year we change that. In the past we've just not had the horses to pull it off. I would want to do more detailed training for the youth before going that route, however. The adults, even the new guys, are trained to position and know the skills. This is just a refresher and an effort to raise the bar a bit for acceptable performance standards.

With the new Scouts just crossing over with a handful of new ASMs, I'd like to do a quick, 10-15 minute refresher course for our ASMs on how to handle advancement. We're getting better, but I really want our leaders to tighten up on the Scouts' proficiency before passing them on T-2-1 requirement. For example, on of the points I always make is to put some space between instruction and testing. If I teach you a square knot and walk you through it step-by-step, then you immediately parrot it back to me, you know necessarily "know" the skill. If you can come back tomorrow, or next week, and tie the knot, then you know it. What other similar points would you include?

Two somewhat random thoughts: First, keep in mind that scoutcraft skills are a means to an end. We're not a camping club. In 20 years I could care less if my Scouts can remember how to tie a bowline or how far from camp their bear bag needs to be hung. I am more concerned that they understand the role of a leader and how to work as a team. Camping and Scoutcraft is the context -- or if you prefer, labratory -- in which we teach all sorts of things - team work, compromise, negotiationing, decision making, trustworthyness, loyalty, helpfullness ... you know the list. Not just management-style leadership. Secondly, I think your proposition that we can't teach both management-style leadership and Scoutcraft is a false one. If we're "playing the game" properly and putting our Scout in situations such that a patrol must work together to be successful, the Scouts must have both sets of skills. A patrol on a campout with no scoutcraft skills will fail in very obvious and predictable ways. A patrol with no leadership or teamwork skills will also fail, but differently. I know it has become fashionable here to criticize "management-style" leadership, how WB21C is run and even the overall direction of how BSA looks at leadership training. But I believe it has an important place in the program. Relatively few people are traditional, charasmatic leaders and -- in my opinion -- that type of leadership can be taught only on a very limited basis. You can learn to mimic the style of a charasmatic leader, but you either have it or you don't. We can, however teach management-style leadership skill -- organization, communications, delegation, etc. I have several boys in the the troop who in no way, shape or form could be considered leaders. A couple are so painfully shy and withdrawn, I personally would describe them as having behavioral problems. One kid in particular is so shy he won't even order his own food when we go out. Smart as a whip, but won't say boo to his shadow. In the past, I've had to trick him to sit down and complete requirements and talk with me long enough to consider the conversation a Scoutmaster conference. But guess who got elected PL last term? Interestingly enough, he didn't do a half-bad job. He showed up for patrol time and campouts ultra-prepared with detailed menus, recipies and cooking instructions. He basically delegated to his APL the job of yelling. Totally management-style leadership, but the patrol was generally successful. I see as one of the advantages of the management-style leadership that BSA uses is that it is accessable to all the boys, not just the Rockwellesque, charasmatic leaders. If you rely on the natural leaders rising to the top, there are going to be a whole bunch of boys left at the bottom.

Feel free to rant anytime, shortridge, no problem here. But as a recovered newspaper reporter myself, I stand by my story. After working at two local papers and one metro daily, I know how the game's played. I've worked the other side of the street, too, as the p.r. director for an ad agency and corporate communications director in the private sector. I wish it were as easy as you describe. The local paper here has consistently been resistent to doing articles on Scouts. Not edgy or controversial enough, unless, of course, it's a negative story. But don't get me started there.....

You lucky dog! You should expect long days and little sleep. Take something soft to sit on. It's 14-hour days of Cub Scouting. Otherwise, the hour-by-hour agenda isn't important. You should also expect the best Cub Scout training you will ever get, bar none. If you never set foot in a day camp, the Cub program training you get will be incredible. Anyone who has a chance to go to camp school, even if you pay for it yourself, should go. Show up in Cub Scout mode. Be open minded and don't worry about being silly. If you go with your serious, adult professional face on, your not going to enjoy yourself. Everyone complains that there's too much information in too little time. Yep. In addition to the fun stuff, there is a lot of important health and safety stuff, budgeting, policy, precedure, stuff that has to be covered. Take notes, share ideas with your fellow students and re-read everything once you get home. I took the course about 6-8 years ago and have been on staff for the past five years. You're in for a real treat! Let us hear from you when you get back.

According to my DE, the fine print in the registrar's manual says that boys must be "promotable" to the first grade. Around here that means sometime in mid-May. Honestly, it seems like smoke and mirrors to me. May 15 is as good as June 1 is as good as Sept. 1. There are a lot of good administrative reasons for recruiting Tigers in the spring, but not many good program reasons. We're going to get them all pumped up and excited and then say, "see you in September?" (I suppose you could sing it if you like.) At best, you're going to get the Tigers to a couple summer time activities, but only if they happen to fit in with the schedule. Tiger cubs at day camp is another issue. Of course they have to have a parent with them at all times, which can be a show stopper. Registration and planning is an issue too. Depending on how camp is run, how do you plan for boys who aren't even register Scouts? I'm certainly not saying it can't be done, but there's a lot of consideration and effort into doing it right.

Dang! I thought someone was going to have Kenny Loggins at their summer camp. I love the old acoustic stuff with Jim Messina, not so much the later movie-soundtrack stuff. Our council has had an extensive forest resource management program. We cut timber from time to time. Unfortunately, in recent years we've had to clear cut some areas trying to control pine beetles. They also selectively cut hardwoods to make room for constuction or when trees appear to be a safety issue. Later this year the camp will host a regional conference on timber management and will be recognized for it forest management program. Think that will make the papers?

When I ran camp we loaded everything into spreadsheets. Name, contact info, rank, pack, den assignment, t-shirt sizes, everything went into one row. That allowed us to to mutiple sorts and create a variety of different rosters we needed -- by rank, by pack, by den assignments, etc. The den assignment sort became the attendance sheet for that den which was completed manually by the DL and turned into HQ every morning. I'm not sure why you would need much more than that digitized. It's a whole lot of data entry for fairly little use. Advancement, for example. We always gave the den leaders one score sheet for each boy with a check list of the advancements they were likely to complete (and a few blank lines for add-ons). The DLs checked off requirements as they were completed and turned the sheets into HQ on Friday. We sorted them by pack and mailed the stack to the boys' Cubmaster. I'm not sure I see the benefit of having all that on a computer. Since I retired, the district now uses an online system for registration. I don't know how much data they capture on line, but I imagine it saves a lot of data input time. But basically being a Ludite when it comes to such things, I can't give you much in the way of specifics. If you will PM me with your email address, I'll try to hook you up with the people who do the registration web site.

I don't see a problems with the current ceremonies, except the call our. Talking with the last year's crop of Ordeal member to and from their Ordeal, their opinion of the OA based on the call out was that it was "lame" but on the ride home, the though all the symbolic stuff was "pretty cool" now that they understood it. That's my point, that I think the Order has an image problem among non-members which is hurting membership and participation in the Order. There are lots of possible fixed, most of which have nothing to do with the ceremonies.