Twocubdad

I missed the part in Bearshark's original post that the contribution list was out there "for anyone to see." Clearly, that's wrong.

For what it's worth, we've had a number of instances in the past were the Council's records dieagreed with the troop records or the boy's handbook. The council registrar has always accepted the handbook as the final authority. Kudu -- have you heard the old story about the prisoners who were in the same cell block so long telling the same jokes over and over that to save time they decided to refer to all jokes by number? One guy would yell "seventeen" and the whole place would break up with laughter. Another guys would yell "number eight" and everyone would groan and chuckle. Maybe you could do that with your complaints against "neo-Scouts." It could save us all a lot of time and effort. #1 -- we are in violation of our 1910 Congressional charter #2 -- the current mission statement is all wrong #3 -- no one uses the patrol method properly #4 -- Over paid corporate professionals have ruined the program #5 -- everything went to pot after Green Bar Bill died #6 -- all criticisms are personal attacks And on. Of course Wood Badge would need it's own section. Just a thought.....

The books are still set up with the "checklist" in the front and a records section in the back for signatures. The Scoutmaster conference and board of review are still there with spaces for signatures. Not using the Scout's handbook for advancement sign-offs is like working without a net. It's generally considered the final word on when things were completed. Sure, boys frequently lose their books and the troop and council should always have redundant backup, but I would never skip the handbook.

My post should have said the pledge information is NOT all that confidential. It's not made public, but pretty much anyone in the food chain has access to the info. Sorry, too late for an edit.

Now older, wiser and more trecherous, I now solve the problems of parents going to Club Med during the week of Scout camp by asking, "So when he does something stupid and I send him home, or if he gets hurt and we're on the way to the ER, who do I call? Child Protective Services?" The moms, especially, fold like cheap umbrellas.

I still stand by what I originally posted and don't disagree with anything anyone has said. But let's not get too far out front of this. Our Scouts are asked to show up for BoR in full class A (we're a full uniform troop, so that usually just means adding a merit badge sash) with their handbooks. For that matter, Scouts T-2-1 should bring their HB to every meeting anyway. I will allow there is some element of discipline and teaching responsibility here. Would you show up for a job interview without your resume or application? If the Scout is responsible for bringing his handbook, it's not the board's job to otherwise solve the problem by going to the Troopmaster records. But your board still handled it poorly, Frank. Given the Scout's home situation, I would have given him some coaching and sympathy and continued the board. "Gee whiz, it must be tough trying to keep track of stuff between your mom's house and dad's. Unfortunately, that means you're going to have to really work at trying to keep up. Maybe you could keep you handbook in your school bookbag so you'll always have it with you." Or something like that. In another situation, I may try to make a point with a Scout, but I would still continue the board. "You've done really well tonight and we're passing you with flying colors, but you know we can't officially sign off on your badge until we're able to review the requirements in your handbook. We'll put things on hold until next week. Bring us your handbook and it will only take a minute or two to finish the board of review." You have to consider each Scout and his situation.

To do it, the date of the board of review would have to be jiggered. The board of review date is considered the official date of advancement. When the Scout goes for his Eagle, the dates of his advancement get looked at. If there isn't the proper time frame between advancement dates, it could get kicked out. My personal opinion would be to allow it and make the paperwork work. If there were some reason his BoR had to take place as scheduled, I don't think the world would come to an end by dating his advancement the day he the time requirement is met, not the day he sat down with the board. But I agree with the others who note the real problem is with having such a rigid BoR schedule. There's no reason the board can't sit for him a week later. Making the kid wait another three months "just because" is crummy. Question: if board's are held on a strict quarterly schedule, why doesn't he meet the requirement? If his previous board was held two quarters ago, he should be okay, right?

I would in fact have the boy take his handbook to the board of review. Ask them to show him the requirement to bring his handbook to BORs. Seriously, you need to have conversation with the board. I don't remember your position, FG, but the conversation should come through some combination of the advancement chairman, committee chairman or scoutmaster. Fortunately for me, in my troop, my CC and CA would both have ducks over something like this. Were the board members aware of the boy's situation? Maybe the boy wouldn't have remembered his book anyway, but since it was at his out-of-town parent's house, he really didn't have access to the book in the first place.

I've worked FOS quite a bit and I can't say that the contribution information is all that confidential. Doing the presentations I collect the pledge cards and frequently checks. Often we'll total the pledges and the total at the end. We will sometimes have clean up nights where a bunch of us will get together at the council office and call past donors who haven't pledged for the current year. We always work off a donor history sheet which shows us what the folks have given in the past so we know what to ask for. A lot goes into figuring "the ask," especially when you're working with an individual. You don't want to under sell, but you don't want to freak folks out, either. When I'm doing presentations, I like giving folks a range $X sends a Cub to day camp for a week. $Y covers the council's cost for one Scout for a year. $Z sends a Boy Scout to summer camp, etc. But going back and asking for more after folks have already pledged is just tacky and classless. The DE responsible needs a refresher at charm school.

This isn't that legalistic. They're not going to approve his application but then deny him a board of review because it's past his birthday. I know you've been burned and feel like you have to do all you can to protect your son's interest (and maybe a bit anal by nature), but surely, someone in your council has a little common sense. Your son has completed the requirements and turned in his application prior to his birthday. He's done his job. How long it take the troop committee, district, council and national to do their jobs shouldn't be a concern. I think you will find that at this point your son is going to be given the benefit of every doubt. Okay, I don't know anything about you council, but based on some of the appeals from our area I can tell you that is the case at national. If you've read some of the other threads here on advancement and particularly how national looks at some of these issues, you know that many of us, myself included, aren't especially thrilled with their point of view. But in your case I think you'll find them very accommodating. I've written here before that you son WILL BE awarded his Eagle sooner or later. I've seen national overrule some rather serious charges and deficiencies to make an award. The stuff you've presented here is beneath contempt. For only the tightest-wound among us would any of this even reach the level of holding a conversation. He swore and slammed a book down? At school? Four years ago? Get real.

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Sorry, something gummed up here. I don't know what.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Don't get caught up in the details. Print a copy of the CC's email and write "I appeal" across the bottom and send it to to the DAC. That's sufficient to get the process going. How you want to spiff it up from there is gravy. The DAC will be in touch with you and will let you know what he needs. At this point, it is the DAC's job to investigate the facts and report them to the committee. Let the DAC drive the process. No sense going to a lot of trouble for stuff he doesn't ask for. I would, however, make certain that you have the originals of everything back from the troop. In our council, the district chairman acts as the investigator and the council advancement committee makes the decision. There's not two separate levels of appeal, just one. I know the folks here are trying to be helpful, but there's only so much bull an 18-year-old is going to put up with (which thus far is a whole lot more than I would have tolerated). He's jumped through enough hoops already. We don't need to be creating more.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Varies by parent, but the out of my hair thing is for real. I had one dad who along about every February would start going through his vacation options for the week I had his kids at camp. After about three years of it I broke: "Gary, I don't want to &@&^%#* hear about where the %@$#^ you're going while I'm babysitting your @&%$, snot-nosed kids." "Gee," he says, "I thought you would be interested to hear were we're going." " &%&$#@%$ $*&*@! "

AMEN!! I absolutely agree, Beav. The proposal process and the expections for projects have been pushed beyond what I believe are realistic for most Scouts. The things we teach boys -- running a meeting, scheduling an outing, developing an activity schedule for a weekend, doing the nuts and bolts organizational tasks necessary to put together an activity -- simply aren't enough for most current focus on producing construction/product oriented Eagle projects. Our council has a strong bias for construction projects but has a rule (enforced only for Eagle projects) that Scouts may not use power tools. So how do you think all these picnic table get built? Surely not with hand saws and augers! Stick an adult in the middle of a project responsible for running the power tools and see where the all the decisions get made. When are Scouts taught all these construction skills? Drafting? Estimating? Proposal writing? Particularly in our Council, the approval process has been rigged far beyond capability of most 15-17-year-olds to navigate. I got a chuckle from Stosh's post on another thread that the Eagle guys in his council appreciate seeing hand-written proposal full of misspellings as they know it's the boy's work. Not here! I had a long discussion with the council Advancement Chairman and one of his minions about the Eagle app process. They strongly believe that the biggest problem we face is that Scoutmasters don't have enough involvement in the Eagle proposals! I know that for our boys to get a project proposal approved, it will require approximately 10-15 hours of ADULT time. My usual approach to a working with a Eagle candidate is to ask him to write up his proposal to the best of his ability, using the information in the Eagle Project Workbook as a guide. I have never, NEVER, see a proposal that had a chance of being approved. Why? If the expectations were anything like appropriate, at least a SOME Scouts should be able to write an acceptable proposal on their own. Our council has a 40-plus item check list for proposals. Everything from naming the two-deep leaders who will be supervising the project, to where drinking water will obtained, to specifying that a first aid kit will be on hand. Okay, sure, those things are important (well, theoretically two-deep leader shouldn't necessarily be needed) but what kid is going to think of all those things? This has turned into a lawerly process where the Scouts have to hit all the buttons or are rejected. So most troops all have Eagle lawyers who shepherd the boys through the process. Give me a kid building a simple walking trail any day!

Catering?? Servers??? Really? Sounds like the expections are pretty high. This isn't a wedding. The only time we've had meals served at ECOHs is when they're in conjunction with another troop function. Maybe once the parent's provided fried chicken and everyone else brough in sides. Usually the troop buys a big sheet cake and a bunch of soft drinks. I'm with da' Beav. I'm not too fond of the King for a Day philosophy of ECOHs. It's never really been an issue, but my thinking is that from the part where the SPL says "I now call this Eagle Court of Honor to Order" until he says "I now declare this Eagle Court of Honor Closed" belongs to the troop. Seven ECOHs one on top of another would be onerous. When you think about adding seven troop activities of any type to an annual schedule, that's a lot. There's not another church nearby that would work with you? Maybe the CO of another troop. Catering??

You sound disappointed that you were left out, HICO. That's how I felt when I found out I wasn't on Nixon's enemy's list.

There's no requirement to complete Eagle in a vacuum.

I like John and da' Beav's responses. They are taking the high road. But for the sake of argument, and at the risk of being rude, I'm going to take your post at face value and respond to the situation as you have presented it to us: if you came to the troop I serve with that list of expectations, I would suggest you find another outlet for your son. I can't imagine going into any program with as many reservations as you have expressed. I don't read anything in your post about why you or your son want to be in Scouts, other than possibly habit. If you don't think he will benefit from the "outside influences" of Scouting and doesn't want to participate in one of the main elements of the program, what's the point? Why does he want to earn merit badges and be an Eagle Scout? Would you look for a school where he was sure to graduate with honors but received little real education? In my opinion, that's the troop you're looking for. I don't know much about the Lone Scout program, but my understanding is it is for boys in areas where there are no Scout troops, not for boys who just don't want to be bothered. Here's another way to look at it. How would the baseball coach respond to this: "My kid is really not an athletic type. He wants to be on the All-Star team and have a high batting average. But his plate is full. Were not going to have weekends for ballgames. I understand that some ballgames are required, but he will certainly do the minimum. Hell do go to the batting cage though, and work like crazy. Hes declined to go to team practices as it interferes with his highly-select Scout troop. " My apologies if this sounds harsh. It is not my intention to insult you or your son. But I think you need to look at the reality of what you are asking. Better a little heartache now, rather than creating a huge problem your son and his troop later. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Well put, E. I've been Scoutmaster for almost 4 years now. I frequently tell folks in the troop that no one has a steeper learning curve that I do. A couple years ago I had a conversation with a guy with over 30 years as SM. He was explaining to me he saw his job as figuring how to deal with each new SPL and come to an understanding -- I guess that's what we're calling a tipping point -- of how he needed to work with that particular SPL to allow him to be successful. The difficult part being that just about the time things started running smoothly with one administration, it is time to elect a new SPL. Since then, I've come to understand that I have to figure that out that everytime I interact with a Scout. Sometimes what is called for is to growl, "ask your patrol leader". Sometimes it's to pick up the kid, powder his butt and get him going again. With the new boys that's a fairly easy call based on their maturity level -- the rough-and-tumble kids respond more to the kick in the pants; the more sensitive kids need a little more TLC. It's the older guys who are more difficult to figure out. That, of course, is filtered through our own vision of what we want out units to be and our understanding of Scouting. Personally, I put more stock in adult association than some here seem to do. I think that's because my experience as a youth with in a troop with terrific leaders -- very fine gentlemen who meant a great deal to me as a youth and who still are very special people to me. Those men made a great impression on me and I hope I can have the same influence on the boys in our troop. I also struggle with the legacy of the shell of the troop that I took over. I saw first hand the difference between boy-led and adult-abandoned. It ain't pretty. I believe one of my mistakes in trying to turn the troop around was trying to push boy-led too hard, too early. The boys were given responsibility for troop meeting programs too soon. We wound up with a room full of 11 and 12 year olds being bored by a 13 year old giving a presentation he wasn't really qualified or interested in giving. We've since tempered our program by having more adult input and expertise. My point here is that finding the balance point in the program is a constant job and constant struggle. I will admit to being frustrated and frankly skeptical of folks who offer the same theoretical answers to every problem. One size does not fit all. Heck, you can't even count on one size fitting the same kid for any length of time. Anyone who buys shoes for a 13-year-old boy understands that. I can hardly imagine an animal that changes more than a Scout troop. Besides the growth and development of the boys themselves, almost every activity is a different dynamic -- different program, different emphasis, different location, different leaders, and often different group of boys (are you telling me your attendance doesn't change for each different sports season?) That's the challenge. We best have a huge bag of tricks if we're going to meet it.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

It's been a while since I looked at the web site and they added a good bit of concrete info. The new stuff on how to find an advisor and how applications are judged is expecially good. (As an aside, but a lot of this info is presented as audio file of an interview with the national Hornaday guy. Maybe it's just me, but this seems like a really poor way to present the information and the MP3 files take a relatively long time to load. I suppose some web designer decided it would be 'cool' to have audio files. Whatever. I am pleased that the new info is up there.)

So how does an interested Scout get started? I've had a couple boys over the years show an interest but they tend to run into road blocks at the council advancement level. Everytime I've asked I've been referred to this one guy who is supposed to be the council Hornaday guru. I even had him come to a troop meeting a couple years ago and do a presentation. Very, VERY short on specifics. He tried to make the award sound much more difficult than the official literature would lead you to understand. His big thing is that project have to be "longitudinal" -- more of a scientific research project where the Scout would study the location over a period of time, complete the project, then go back and repeat the studies to see what effect the project had. Again, I don't find that supported the official literature. When my guys asked how to get started, all you would get was something like, "Well, let me know...." I've since gotten to know this guy a little better and have learned he's just weird. That's about all you get out of him. So if I have a guy who's interested in a Hornaday, does he just go out and do a project? Is there a pre=approval process as with Eagle (heaven forbid!)? Is there an application? Who out there has run one of these?

When my older son was SPL I took him to one Roundtable. He described it as the most useless, boring hour and a half he had ever spent. From the mouths of babes....

No set budget. I've never had a parent complain that the food for a weekend cost too much. We're usually pushing in the opposite direction -- for the boys to try more challenging menus which usually end up costing more. We have had a problem of the grubmaster failing to collect from each Scout and getting stuck footing the bill. The Scout forgot to bring the money on the campout, the grubmaster didn't attend the next meeting, they didn't have the right change the week later, yadda, yadda, yadda. We're trying a new thing the PLC worked out (with some SM input). Not a budget, but a new method of handling the money. Everyone pays $20 in advance, regardless of the menu or number of meals (assuming a normal weekend campout). That gives the grubmaster the money in advance with which to go shopping. It also solves the change making problem as the grubmaster know exactly how much he has to refund everyone from their $20, Also, if the patrol goes over $20, the GM still collects the difference, never more than a couple bucks. That way, if the boys don't collect the money, they're out only a couple bucks. The first campout using this was a disaster. The troop treasurer decided he needed to collect the money. (We've never done that before, the boys have always been responsible). The outingings chairman decided $20 wasn't enough and put $27 on the sign-up. That created a disaster trying to make change. We spend an hour at the following committee meeting with all the committee adults explaining why they needed to be involved. My position was that the boys had handled the money for food for years. If the new process moved away from that, we would go back to the old system, warts and all. Of course the PLC enjoyed watching the adults melt down for a change.

Nice try, HICO, but on appeal the Scout Spirit requirement is defined as "no felony convictions." The argument that an inactive Scout has failed to demonstrate Scout Spirit is not going to fly.