Twocubdad

Again, the discussion regarding "failure" is largely semantic. If you follow the gatekeeper analogy, there are those who have passed through the gate and those who have not. There are those Scouts who have completed the requirements and those who have not yet completed them. As long as there are standards and/or requirements, someone must be charged with maintaining them. In Scouting, it's the Scoutmaster. Perhaps when we reach Scouting Nirvana all boys will meet and exceed all requirements without anyone watching. But as long as we are dealing with Scouts not Saints, someone needs to make sure the standards are met. I believe it to be a fact of human nature that some folks will always try to get by, evade responsibility or gain an advantage. True, there are many ways to maintain standards or enforce the gatekeeper function, all acceptable within the program. Ultimately, though, it is the responsibility of the Scoutmaster to maintain advancement standard. He can delegate that responsibility to senior Scout or other adults, but if you follow BSA advancement policy, the buck stops with the SM.

Thirty years ago my Eagle project was to sponsor a blood drive, so I have a warm spot for them. Then we used probably 20 Scouts and 10 adults who did everything except stick people with needles. It was a massive undertaking and I think we collected over 160 pints of blood. As OGE points out, due to confidentiality laws and blood-borne pathogens, Bloodmobiles are almost totally professionally run. The only things left for volunteers are to recruit donors and work the snack bar. Unfortunately, that really doesn't meet the requirement for an Eagle project.

These Boy Scouts have soared After 7 years together, the members of Troop 116 have all achieved their goal: Eagle Scout. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/540438.html

Every month or two our CC will show up with a couple boxes of ice cream bars, or a case of drinks. Everyone in full uniform gets one. Everyone else watches.

First select your Webelos Leaders then let them choose their meeting times and places. Then have the Webelos and their parents decide which den is best for them. Something between where your friends go and the meeting times that meet the parents' needs will make the decision. The pack leadership does need some contingency for a 13-2 split. The decisions regarding the timing of crossover should be made with an eye for a smooth Webelos-to-Scout transistion. February or March is the traditional crossover time because it allows the new Boy Scouts three or four months and two or three campouts with the troop under their belt before going to summer camp. The first year of real Boy Scout camp is an emotional hurdle for some new Scouts and their parents and the idea is to make them as comfortable as possible with the troop and being with the older boys. The timing of Arrow of Light is similar. A good Webelos program will be planned out so that the boys finish AoL just before crossover. As soon as boys finish AoL, I promise you a good precentage of them will see Webelos as "done" and will stop attending. A good WDL will have the Webelos II year programmed out so that the boys finish just before crossover. There are variations (like finishing AoL in December, but then as a den all earning World Conservation, or something like that). But the principle remains to keep them engaged right up to crossover.

That's one of the things we're working on. We currently don't have instructors but are looking crank them back up. Our thinking is to look at instructor as a Star-level PoR and have the boys be responsible for teaching one or two skills or perhaps teach one and assist one. In the past instructor was rather thoroughly abused as s leadership position. When I joined the troop we had 10 or 12 instructors and non of them did anything. We eliminated the position entirely but I think we've had enough time pass that the institutional memory of how it ran before has been rebooted.

Good luck to you and your son. I hope you have a soft landing at a welcoming and well-run troop and that the rest of his Scout career is a positive one. One bit of advice as you make the transition: pay attention to how your son is credited for his work toward Star. A new troop could reasonably question whether or not he has completed the requirements and may not be willing to let him pick up at SMC or BoR. If one of the current ASMs is sympathetic to the situation, perhaps he could sign-off on he requirements or at least provide a letter as to the situation. It may be that the council advancement committee needs to wave their magic wand over the situation so that he gets a clean start toward Life. There are several ways to handle this, but it is something you need to be mindful of.

At one time we had two pipers, actually. Now we're down to one piper, two drummers and a couple horn blowers (I wouldn't call them buglers.) Our guy pipes us in and out of campfires and assemblies at summer camp. He's in big demand for Scouts' Own services and council fundraisers. Our Scouts traditionally do a mac-daddy flag ceremony and he plays the appropriate pipe tunes for lowering the colors. One year the troop skit was a reinactment of the Battle of Sterling Bridge. Kinda short on historical accuracy -- mostly guys in blue face paint running back and forth yelling "Freedom." But that was okay, the history was over he heads of 99% of the people there anyway.

We had a very large pack, 100+ boys. When I became CC, I looked at the Perfect-N method which use software to generate race heats that correct for match-ups and lane variations. I figured that if we could run one heat every 2 minutes it would take us something like 16 hours to run the race. Search Perfect-N and you'll find the sites with the details. What did instead was, for each rank, we line the cars up based on the order in which they register. The first four car become the first heat, the next four the second heat and so on. Each heat runs four trips down the track, rotating so that every car runs in every lane. Points are awarded for finish (4 points first, 1 point for fouth) and the top two cars advance. The third and fourth place cars are "retired." This way everyone gets to see their car race at least four times. For the second round the cars are lined up again and the heats move forward. I think the top four cars from every rank advance to the Pack finals. In theory, the three fastest cars could check in and race together in the first round. If so, the theoretical third place car would be eliminated in the first round. Unfortunately, that's somewhat the luck of the draw. To somewhat lessen the agony of defeat, we had an old wooden track set up in a corner. Boy Scouts staffed it and the "retired" cars were free to run on it as long as they wanted. Mostly it was just open play, but occasionally the Boy Scouts would organize heats. All just for fun.

It's a matter of semantics, Stosh, but I'd say you did not retest the Scout. You used the knots as a tool to make a point and get the Scout thinking. If you don't have a chance of failing, it ain't a test. I tend to spend a good bit of time in conferences talking about the big focus for the rank. We always spend time reviewing first aid, as that's something we've ID'd as a weakness within the whole troop. My rouse is that I want to help the boys prepare for their BoR so we're going to review the main things we think the BoR will ask. I suppose at some point the boys will figure out that the BoR doesn't do retests either. Like the rest of you I enjoy informally talking with boys about what they're up to, if not, what are you doing here? THE Scoutmaster Conference required for an advancement is a formal thing. It's usually about an hour, which sounds long, but it's a conversation not a grilling. I like to meet at a local coffee shop and talk over a cup of coffee and a soft drink. I probably spend more talking than I should, but I feel like this is my chance to coach and counsel a Scout on a one-on-one basis. Of course I ask plenty of questions to get them to open up, too. But how to conduct a Scoutmaster Conference wasn't Barry's question. As to the gatekeeper function, the short answer is yes. The real answer is much more nuianced. At SM conferences I have, from time to time, told Scouts that I would not recommend them for advancement. Sometimes it is for obvious reasons, like they have incomplete requirements. If it's something subjective -- PoR performance problems, behavior problems -- it won't be the first time they've heard from me. I know that my "recommendation" isn't really needed for a Scout to ask for a BoR, but with most Scouts aren't going to press the issue. And if my recommendation is negative, the advancement chairman knows about it before the Scout does. I take a team approach and work closely with my advancement chair, committee chairman and other leaders. It's important everyone is on the same page. I spent 30-45 minutes this on the phone this morning talking with our advancement chairman about a Board of Reveiw from last night. Anytime there is an issue with a Scout, we talk about it and try to approach the situation with a consistent message. If a Scout is ever denied an advancement, either at a SMC or a BoR, everyone on the leadership team knows it going in. Unless he's in total denial, which happens, the Scout knows it too.

The the Colors is the bugle equivalent of the National Anthem an is appropriate to play that when the flag is raised or lowered. To The Colors should be accorded all the honors of the National Anthem. Our current bugler is a first year trumped player. If you know what Assembly is supposed to sound like, you can pick out a few note now and again that will suggest to you what he's playing. Generally, when you hear the bugle, that means you should do whatever it is that you're supposed to be doing at the time -- wake up, meet at the flag pole, go to sleep, whatever. Virginia Tech has a really good web site with the music and c3po files (whatever) so you can hear what the call sounds like. Go to http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/buglecalls/Buglecallslist.html Now if you really want to have fun, get a troop piper. Bagpipe were used in the British military like bugles. Difference is that instead of short, distinct "calls" pipers play entire tunes for specific things. Each regiment, and sometimes piper, plays different tunes to call the troops to different functions. You have to know that the Scots Guard plays Cock O' the North for assembly. (I'm just making that up as an example -- our piper can quote chapter and verse.)

Your last sentence, LisaBob, is exactly my point. Well put. Sure, maturity comes in fits and spurts and kids may do a lot of growing up in two months. But how does he know it will be the NEXT two months?

Frankly guys, I think you're missing several critical points. First, this extremely important, mandatory training is so important that it was put off from October to February. That the training was not held during young Seagull's term of office is his fault how? He will be offered another chance to take the training when? The SM (and apparently the CC who "ratted" on the Scout is in collusion) refuses to accept a parent's word, a doctor's note and documentation that the boy missed five days of school due to the illness. Keep in mind that the frivolous activities the boy ditched the training was riding to the pharmacy and Blockbuster. It's not like he was at the theater munching popcorn with his buddies. The Scoutmaster refuses reasonable request to discuss the situation or clarify his position. And for this the boy is denied even an opportunity at advancement and is called out in front of his troop for ridicule. Sorry folks, I stand by my original post.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Youth membership applications require the unit leader's signature, not the committee chairman, so I would think it's the SM's call as to who joins the troop. But if the SM is just rolling over it doesn't really matter. More to the point is that these guys are making a blanket assumption about the Webelos. Can you really say they are ALL too immature? How does he know. Out of any group of 11 year olds your going to have some going on 15 and some going on 5. And, as has been noted above, what difference does he think two months will make? What's going to happen between now and May that these guys will suddenly be mature enough for him? Control freak/power trip, IMHO.

FYI, From the Insignia Guide -- Activity Medals (Pinewood Derby, Space Derby, Regatta and the generic "activity medal") may be worn in a straight line above the left pocket, no more than five at a time.

Not that this will solve your problem, but for anyone else reading this, ALWAYS buy the longer sash, even for the three-foot-nothing 11 year old. He'll grow into it. If you want to take the sash up until he gets taller, hem it at the bottom. Because of the angle, that's a little more difficult that hemming the top. If you hem the top, later when you let it back out, the badges will be too low on the sash. Of course you could add new badges along the top, but it seems like most kids want them in the order they are earned.

About a year ago we completely re-outfitted the troop with Eureka Pinnacle Pass tents. The Pinnacles are an upgrade for the Apex models with aluminum poles and heavier floor material. It's about a $20 upgrade, but we figured it was a good investment from a durability standpoint. So far, the boys are pleased with the tents. We sent a crew to Philmont with them and they did very well as backpacking tents, too. Of course I wouldn't call them true backpacking tents, but at this price it's a good compromise. One thing we liked about the Pinnacle/Apex tents is that the come in 2- and 3-man sizes. We outfitted each patrol with three 2-man tents and one 3-man. Particularly with the younger guys, this gives us the ability to deal with an odd number of kids without someone tenting alone. Otherwise, the 3-man tent becomes a perq for the PL. We went through a local independant outfitter who gave us a good price. I think he got Eureka to waive the shipping cost and passed that along to us. I think we paid about $130 for the 2-man tents and $150 for the 3-man. Like I said, if price is factor, you can go with the Apex tents and cut about $20 from both prices.

I'm sorry. Did that come off sounding angry? GOOD!! If the rest of you aren't mad about it too, you need to go back and re-read the thread. Anyone who treats Scouts like this has no business being in the program.

I got halfway through writing a fairly detailed reply with all the technical points of BSA Advancement policy when I realized that you had added this follow up note. But forget details of the advancement policy. These guys won't care. They are beyond reason. Go to the next troop meeting. Ask to speak with the SM and committee chairman/ASM privately. Explain to them that a good Scoutmaster never criticizes a Scout publicly and you are offering him that courtesy dispite him not having the decency to extend the same courtesy to your son. Explain to him that he is the poorest excuse for a Scoutmaster to ever put on the uniform. Take your son by the hand, walk out the door and don't look back. If you are so inclined, put all this in a letter to your local Council Executive. Ask him for the names of real Scoutmasters in the area and for the procedure to appeal your son's Star Board of Review to the Council Advancement Committee.

By no means is it a dead issue. Check with your Council Advancement committee. Depending on your ability to document the other requirements (ie, tenure, etc.) I think you have a good shot. Most advancement committees will -- or at least should -- look favorably on an appeal if the fault was with the unit, not the Scout. If you have a letter from a former committee member or other troop leader backing up your version of events, I think you have a very good chance. I know our district advancement chairman is researching the case of an Eagle candidate who had completed all the requirements but his troop folded before he could complete his EBOR. According to the DAC, it bird will very likely be awarded. And this is from the early 60's!

If your troop uses TroopMaster, under Report/Advancements there is a tab for World Conservation. Clicking that will generate a list of boys who qualify. You can then print out a form for the SM to sign. It ain't official, but around here it's good enough.

My WB course elected to go with the Gilwell neckers and beads. The neckers are like horse blankets! Much larger and heavier-weight fabric than the US variety. As Eagle92 alluded, neckers in Europe are larger and generally nicer than those here. They are the one iconic piece of Scout uniforms you see kids wearing all over. Cutoff jeans, ABBA T-shirt and their Scout group necker. Because they wear them all the time I suspect the put a bit more effort and money into them. Our troop also wears custom neckerchiefs. I just reordered two dozen for the upcoming new Scouts. Since I took the time to ask, our supplier supplier (Advantage Emblem -- Jenni is terrific) does, in fact, offer a larger size which we ordered. The older scouts and thick-necked adults will be able to up grade if they like.

I think you may have missed the original intent of my question. I'm trying to AVOID creating positions where the Scouts simply wear a badge and hang out for four or six months. I DON'T WANT advancement-only PORs, but neither do I want to place an artificial barrier to a boy's advancement. If, in your troop, the Scouts in patrol positions are putting in sufficient time/effort such that you, as Scoutmaster, count patrol-level postions toward advancement, that's great. It's a flexible program. Our troop doesn't work that way. Take quartermasters, for example: Each patrol has it's own locker and plastic bin in which they keep all their gear which is permanently assigned to each patrol -- tents, cook gear, stove, lantern, water jug, fly. The PQM is responsible for inventorying the gear twice a year (at patrol election time) and maintenance in between (replacing lost tent stakes and broken lantern mantles, restocking consumable supplies, and an occasional clean up as needed. The patrol members generally take turns serving as grubmaster who is also responsible for taking home the pots and pans for a thorough cleaning after campouts. If tents need to be dried, one of the two boys sleeping in the tent takes it home and airs it out (we don't have room at the hut to hang tents). Consequently, PQM ends up being about a 30 minute per month job. Troop QM, on the other hand, is responsible for supervising the five PQMs and making sure they keep their lockers neat. He is responsible for the semi-annual inventories. He is responsible for purchasing and stocking all consumables (matches, fuel, cleaning supplies). He is responsible for inventorying all troop equipment and recommending to the committee what needs to be replaced. A year ago the QM had the added responsibility of researching new tents for the troop. Most significantly, the QM is responsible for all program materials -- rope, staves, maps and compasses, first aid training materials, games, etc., etc. Every week he works with the ASPL-Programs to gather the materials needed for the troop meeting and activities. He serves as load master when we go camping, supervising the loading of the trailer, making sure it's balanced and packed in the proper order (chuck boxes first, groceries last). Bottom line is that in our troop, there is a significant difference in the responsibilities of the troop and patrol quartermasters. I don't feel -- and I believe I am backed up by the literature -- that service as PQM doesn't qualify for a POR. Your troop may differ. You may not like the POR requirement to begin with. Viva la differance! As far as very small troops go, I can't help the fact that the troop QM of a six-Scout troop doesn't have as much to do at the QM in a larger one. My troop QM doesn't have as much to do as the QM in the troop down the road with 90+ boys, three assistant QMs and 10 or 12 patrol QMs to look after. That's just the nature of things.

I'm guessing that's a rhetorical question, but I don't really understand your point. Honestly, I've don't understand much of what you've posted on this thread. Clearly, with a small, single-patrol troop this isn't an issue as the patrol QM is effectively the troop QM. Patrol officers (scribe, QM, etc.) obviously serve a function and do, as you note, serve as a training ground for troop-level positions. I've not said otherwise here and our troop uses those positions in the way. But I've never heard of giving advancement credit for those patrol jobs.

Actually, Kudu, if you knew this kid, and about three more like him, the pattern I see is laziness. They have no interest in leadership because that requires effort. But it's deeper than a distain for "specific leadership positions." These guys taking responsibility for just about anything. If we're doing something that looks like fun and all he has to do is show up, great. Much more investment than that and forget about it. My greatest hassle in Scouting right now is a couple of moms from this group who want to know "what the troop is going to do to keep Scouting fun for their boys." Answer: not a dang thing. They have at their disposal all the tools and resources they need to do just about anything "fun" they want. Just add effort. In the case of the particular kid I mentioned, the only reason I put up with him is that he is otherwise well behaved. Doesn't cause problems and neither he nor his mom are part of the whiners. As long as he's okay with that status, I'm okay, too. (My apologies to all if this is spinning off into another tangent.)