SSScout

Well, it certainly is not "required" by any BSA reg, but it does make a nice occasion. It should be remembered that the presentation of the goodies need not be too fancy. The celebration/recognition is up to the Scout and his family. A regular Troop CoH is sufficient. Say the Eagle Promise , congratulate the Scout and eat the cookies. It is kind of sad when the Scout won't allow any recognition. He earned it, he should be congratulated for it. Humility? Embarrassment? Disgust that he finally accomplished what his parents required of him? Got the Eagle, let me get my license now....Different reasons, I guess. I have seen the family try for a nice ceremony only to have the Scout begrudgingly go thru the motions and then never be seen at a Scout event again.

Cubmaster 35: Welcome to the forums. Looks like you got your wish in asking for advice (that IS what you wanted, yes?). Doesn't mean you would agree with the advice, just that you would get it. Name calling? I didn't see/read any initially, only supposition and possibilities, given what you shared. Tit for tat? Not very Christian in my faith. Return love for hate. In our case, follow the Scout Law and Promise, even here. Allow, if he will, the pastor of the CO to "do the right thing", but do not back him into a corner where he will continue to do the "wrong thing". Keep yourself on the higher moral ground. Do not return his bad behavior with worse . My general advice: 1) Remember the Scout Law, the Scout Promise, and while you're at it, The Golden Rule. 2) Document everything. Record witnesses to conversations. Save emails, print'em out. Keep a diary of phone conversations, etc. 3) Talk to the others in your old Pack leadership. Keep the conversation going. Invest in a new coffee maker. 4) Definitely talk to your DE, your District Commissioner, and ask about forming a new Pack with your existing folks. Your bridges have already been burned, move on. In most Cub Packs I have known, most of the "gear" is privately owned but "loaned" to the Cubs. Flags, Pinewood Derby Track, maybe Packs , but the other stuff is Mr. Jones', or Mrs. Smith's. 5) Take a deep breath and drop your own pretense at having all the answers. You do not. Your friends from the Pack have some, you have some, the pastor has some (even if you don't really know or like his version). The DE and DC have some. Listen more than you speak. 6) We each of us dig our own hole to climb out of. If I understand the inferences you gave about the pastor, he may be digging his own hole deeper. He may (MAY) have been transferred from another church to give him another chance (ummmm, that sounds familiar.). 7) The truth will out. Be patient. Be not vengeful. 8) To quote again the wisdom of Bob The Tomato, "It's for the kids". Keep that up front, and you won't be half wrong. I was once denied a staff position for the Jamboree , this after having previously served succesfully at the Jamboree, many years of fruitful training, documented leadership and awards. It took me three months of polite, persistent, logical, email, phone call, personal visits, letters from my associates to find out the truth of the matter. It was ultimately worth it. But if I had yelled and screamed about how unfair and poorly treated I felt, I would not have succeeded . And, I feel, the BSA was the better for my efforts. See you on the trail...

Brings up something mentioned at the last RT. Popcorn sales. Unit sells popcorn ("Hey, it's not over priced, this is a DONATION to Scouting, with a THANK YOU gift in return."). About 1/3 goes to pay for the Popcorn (Trails End), 1/3 to the unit (divvy up as a Scout Account? and Unit? Pay for Philmont?) and 1/3 to the Council. Okay, if the Unit sells "holiday trees" or sells spaghetti suppers, they decide who keeps what (wholesale the trees to Oregon or NC, grocery supplier gives discount). Any units on the receiving end of this website VOLUNTARILY donate a third to their Council? In the mean time, it almost makes sense, what the original poster said. Almost. Most Units that I know already collect some dues and then include the Handbook(s), neckers, hats, insignia, "bling", camp prepayments (credit!), and ceremonial regalia (candles, flags, banners, sign outside the CO). We all pay taxes. These taxes are used (one hopes) to pay for lots of things us citizens need and like. Roads, schools, dams, parks, zoos, military protection.... I may never get to see Zion Park in person, but I like to think my taxes have preserved it. Are our membership fees and FOS and popcorn going to preserve Camp Wizbang so it won't get sold to a developer because the SE needs a pay bump and no one thought to "promote Scouting" other wise? Are only us locals showing Scouting to be the program for certain nephews ( hello UncleP ) by which to grow into men ? It is nice to get a paycheck for what one does. we have a local community museum. It was started by an auctioneer who realized he was selling off the history of the area everytime he cleared out an old farm or settled the estate of a family who no longer lived within 5 miles of the grandparents home. It started with a collection in the National Bank's basement. This museum grew and became popular. School groups came. Exhibits of the "old ways" were created and one wall was dedicated to a local baseball legend. They named the road in front of the museum after his family, which donated the land for the construction of the new building. Volunteers worked tirelessly. Now, it has five paid staff, the original founders are almost all gone. One half of the "town" gallery has been cleared for a sculpture gallery, wine and beer gardens are more frequent than special exhibits on "old time things". The dedicated wall to the ball player is taken down, in favor of a big poster extolling the next pottery demonstration. Is BSA Scouting taking this same course? Is the Program taking backseat to the necessity of paying wages? Hey, is this de ja vu all over again? Increase the National membership fee, maybe. Include all that other stuff, no, that's the Council trying to take a piece of the Units pie.....

Yep. A good Cub RT is run like a Pack meeting, giving the model for other folks to emulate. Breakouts (so called. Our Cub RT is usually too small and so is one meeting, one theme, one "Big Rock") can be viewed as Den Meetings.... It does take advance planning, more so because Packs have (very often) the new parents who don't necessarily know what to expect. The Scout Law/Promise game can easily take 15 minutes if done right. Another game: Den competition: For each Den, You need two five gallon buckets, one Labeled "FIRE" the other labeled " WATER" , a Big Spoon, and finally a bag of cotton puffs, separated and LAID (not stuffed) into the "WATER" bucket. Count out puffs? Maybe 25? The empty "FIRE" bucket is at one end of the room. The FULL "WATER" bucket at the other., maybe a line 25' away, not too far. Den lines up behind the "WATER" bucket. First Cub holds spoon, on signal(GO), Den Leader places ONE cotton ball on the spoon, and Cub walks to "Fire" bucket and deposits cotton ball in to EXTINGUISH the fire. , runs back, gives spoon to next Cub, Den Leader puts another cotton ball on the spoon, etc. If CB falls off, Cub should pick it up right there, and continue. NO HANDS WHILE MOVING! NON-SPOON HAND BEHIND BACK! First Cub goes to end of his Den line, continue. First Den to EXTINGUISH their fire (no more cotton balls!) wins. Appropriate prize awarded.... Cub Master/Cheerleader can demonstrate proper technique! "Don't waste water! Don't spill any!" Outdoor version: Use real water, measure amount somehow.....

Oh, THAT kind of Chaplain, not this one?

Our Panaderia here down the street will be open in a while. What kind of pie do you want, Stosh?

This is what democracy is all about. A group, deciding for themselves, what should happen, rather than having events thrust on them. "This is what we will do". versus "Let's do this. Or, let's do this, what do you think?" New England Town Meeting vs Facism? When I attended Boy's State, we had , oh, maybe 300 kids (boys!) thrown together in a college campus, we were arbitrarily divided into "States" of about 30 each, with a Marine DI as a "counselor" . We attended classes in behavior ("Do It This Way") that, on hind sight, were intended to make us want to do things differently, and classes/lectures on US and World history. We got together in what we learned to call "caucus" and appointed among ourselves reps and judges a governor and committees of communication. We "talked" with the other "states" and ultimately settled into a "Nation" type camp. Patrols and Troop dynamics? Willingness of the Adult Leadership to ask, many, many times..... "What do you think?"

Amen , ditto and agree to all the above. This is "Mr. Smith's Troop", not a "Boy Scout Troop". The Adult Leaders need the official training. They need copies of the Guide To Advancement. They need to allow their Scouts to attend the local Council " National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience." (NAYLE) Or... your son could attend, any Scout can. Look for it on your local Council website. The Scout that comes back from the NAYLE will never be satisfied with such a Troop / Patrol dynamic as you describe. Montain Man does sound like the First Year Scout sessions many summer camps have. The camp may /may not sign off on it. In Scouts, the standard is once a requirement is passed, the Scout should not be tested again. This does not mean he should not be given opportunity to PRACTICE his skill or knowledge. Patrol Knot competition, First Aid drills, compass/map games, nothing wrong with those. If the camp passed out certificates attesting to the idea that the Scout had THIS class and THIS training, I think a period of demonstration/practice might be a good idea. Every Scout loves the chance to chop wood in an Axe Yard in somebody's back yard (Totin' Chip?), or do pioneering stuff at a Troop meeting (Camp Gizmo? Rope and Poles?) Merit Badges? Must be registered with the Council as a Merit Badge Counselor. If the Counselor's name is not properly recorded with Council, this can lead to problems years later. See Eagle requirements. Save those Blue card tabs! Save ANY signed Scout card, these are the proof that the rank/class/requirement has been taken/passed. This is true for anything Scouty, from Tenderfoot thru Woodbadge (adult thing). You are within your rights to go to the Council Registrar and inquire about their records re your Scout. If things aren't up to date correct (be reasonable, months may pass without entries), then go to your Charter Organization Representative or Institution Head (These are the folks that sign the charter that sponsors the unit) and have a conversation about your experience with your unit leaders. They (the COR and IH ) may not even be aware of their responsibilities , may not even be aware the (church/temple/foundation/VFW/etc.) sponsors a Scout Unit. There are many different defined Scout Leaders that are supposed to check up and help each other. New folks such as yourself (was your Scout a Cub?) may not be aware of the possibilities. There is also something called "Round Table". This is a local get together training for adult Scouters. You might research the event on your local Council/District website. Make some more friends, compare experiences, encourage proper behavior, learn something new, drink more coffee, etc. Depend, concentrate on the Scout Promise and Scout Law. Base all your activities vis a vis your Scout on those. Set the example for him. And, allow him the chance to plead his own case as much as he can. Do not be lax in asking him "well, what do YOU want to do?" And do not be slow in asking around to other families. You just may have some similar experiences to join with. Strength in numbers and all that. Good luck to your Scout and you. See you on the trail !

"That friend speaks my mind". I have had to disabuse folks of the idea that the BSA is a "Christian" organization many times. "Well, it's based on Christian principles, isn't it?" Maybe, but then why do so many other faiths find agreement with the Promise and Law, and then use it for their Youth Ministry, just as the Mormons do? Jesus was a Jew, did you know that? I don't remember him being "disowned" by his synagogue. If we follow the teachings of a devout Jew, what does that make us? I have heard "Christian" defined several ways: Someone who emulates the life of Jesus, tries to live their own life the way Jesus lived his (modern appurtenances not withstanding). Someone who accepts the idea that Jesus died his torturous death in recompense for the sins I have committed so that God will forgive me. He wouldn't forgive me before if I asked it of him and showed my sincerity by my future actions? We still need a blood sacrifice. Someone who does certain rituals and says certain things. Someone who reads and agrees with the Bible. How much of the Bible? New AND Old Parts? All of it? Only ACTS? And what about continuing revelation, any room for that, or is the present Gospel complete and finished? Old timer was asked which Bible translation he favored to give to the Sunday School kids. He replied, "King James, of course, If it's good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for the kids!" And yes, I think this is way past merely an issue or a politic. We have done lots of "Faith and Chaplaincy" discussions . I still feel a separate Forum is appropriate and the utility proven. Stosh, any time thee pass thru Maryland, I would treat thee to a piece of pie.... Squirrel on my bird feeder, dang.

Golly gee, and I thought this had been moved to the "Faith and Chaplaincy Forum". Oh, right.....

Moe Hican http://www.b99.tv/video/oily-american/

"Let he who is without sin wash the first foot" : https://www.ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/when-pope-francis-washes-womens-feet-arguments-follow-whos-right So is not one who would emulate Jesus' life not a Christian? Why not call us Jesusites? Amish, Mennonite, Wesleyan, Brethren. Hutterites (watch the old movie "The 49th Parallel"), Albigensians, I remember first learning that Christ was not Jesus' last name. Yeah, I was really young.......... "John Jones".... There are so many subsets of bigger sets. I just learned of a FOURTH Muslim subdivision. Sunni, Shia, Druze and Ahmadiyya. The divisions seem (to me, at least) to depend on (1) which parts of the Koran are the most important and which to avoid/ignore and (2) who was/is Mohammed's inheritor. They all pray to Allah. And, so they tell me, these are the BIG groupings. When I try to explain the divisions among (Christian) faith, wow.... And we expect a 14 (15?) year old Scout to understand and be sensitive to theological divisions?

Take the Scout Promise, the Scout Law and put each separate word on a 3x5 card. Fold them ONCE, and throw them in a big shopping bag, mixed up. Scene: Start of the Pack Meeting. I assume you have some opening ceremony. We did the PoA and Cub promise. You could do this in the OPENING, or the CLOSING. When Johnny Cub assigned to lead the Scout Promise and Law stands up and is almost ready to begin, CM comes forward: "Wait a minute Johnny, I need to interrupt here to ask a question. Have the Parents been paying attention?" (here, walk around to the parents in the audience, shaking the shopping bag). " In this bag, I have the Scout Promise and Law. Your Cubs have , ( I hope), been learning these. Have you? Here , take a card, yep, you too, Pete, and Mrs. Long... " (encourage all to pick a card out of the bag until you run out). " Now, come on up front here, and let's see if they can line up in the proper order... " The Cubs will love it, watching their parents try to line up in the proper order. CM , of course, needs to encourage and comment as necessary. Keep the Cubs in hand, don't let them comment. If possible, ask the parents to do it SILENTLY, without talking!

"Gold is where you find it." Yes, I have seen such events, opportunities, but can't point to any at the moment. Perhaps YOU could encourage such in your local area? You might be surprised when the park/museum/training academy responds , "gee , never thought of that....". Oh, perhaps here's one: http://www.baltimorebsa.org/events/2016-railroad-o-ree-oa-expo/63361

Yep, ain't supposed to happen this way, or be perceived this way. Path of action as I perceive it: 1) Scout has spoken to SM, gotten response. Not satisfied, sees things from a different perspective. Are things understood correctly? Can things be moved forward from where they are? No? then: 2) See T2Eagle. I like his idea/suggestion. Parents always are the "backup", but make sure the Scout understands you are acting in his stead. You should also follow the Scout Law in your dealings. "A Scout is Courteous, Friendly, " etc. You do not need to be confrontational, only wishing to gain understanding and cooperation. Perhaps the SM can still be allowed to "do the right thing". No threats necessary , only seeking information about where the SM is in all this. How does he really see the Scout? 3) After the meeting, then approach the District Advancement Committee. Again, ,, here is what we know, here is what we (Scout and parent) have been told. what is YOUR advice? Can we ask for an EBOR at the District "in disputed circumstances"? 4) AND.... it may well be time to seek a new Troop/ Venture Crew to continue the Scout Trail..... Buen Camino!

Quaker shaggy dog story: A newcomer, seeking to find out what these strange Quakers do, enters the Meetinghouse to find the congregation already sitting quietly. We would say "the Meeting has settled". He looks around , finds a space on a bench and sits down beside another man. As can happen, nothing is said for a time, no messages are given. After some minutes of the silence, the visitor leans over to the other man and whispers, "when does the service start?" The more experienced Friend leans toward the visitor and whispers back," at the end of Meeting". So what is a Scout Chaplain's Aide supposed to do? Entertain? Explain his faith? Discuss other Scout's faith? Remind folks of the first of the four promises a Scout makes? Of Scout Law number 12? What an idea..... How "mature" do we expect a Scout CA to be? I would be very proud of any Scout taking on that role and "doing his best" at it. A good Scouter might suggest the Scout go to his faith leader and discuss it with him. Another Scouter might tell the boy "let's do it THIS way in our Troop. " , regardless of how the Scout feels about it. "Well, Johnny, what do you think should happen? " With my experience as a Chaplain at the Jamboree, I was once asked to organize a "Scout's Own " for the Camporee. I said to the organizers, OK, tell each Troop to send their Chaplain Aides to meet with me after lunch Saturday. The announcement was made in the Camporee instructions. From 25 Troops attending , 3 CAs came round. I said, Okay , boys, I've been asked to organize a Scout's Own for sunday morning. Do you see the same problem I see? They looked at each other (never having met before). One boy offered, "You're not a Scout?" I said "Ya think?" I asked , did they think they could whip up a respectful reminder of our Duty to God ? Maybe 15 minutes, max? I did not ask what faith they themselves professed. told them I would help with anything they wanted to do. I handed them some sample programs I had from past events, and from the discussion I lead at IOLS. I said, you probably won't be able to produce a handout program, but what do you want to do? And I sat back.... These three went to the other Troops, got other Scouts together. Sunday morn, they set up the area, got Scouts to (signs held up) enter silently and respectfully, and made a Scout's Own consisting of solo readings, a choral reading (group reading together) and recitation of the Philmont Grace and some other things. It was well received. Jesus was mentioned, as was Allah. I heard no complaints after. As I've suggested, the boys frequently have a better grasp of these inter-something faith problems than us old -stuck -in -our- individual and collective mud.

LilSisKin: I like Qwazse' suggestion. I am surprised I didn't think of that before! Which leads me to give one of my favorite stories. I attended U of S some years ago, and met a young man with four medals on his uniform. I recognized the Eagle, the God and Country..., and then I recognized the Ad Altare Dei and the Ner Tamid. . I had to waylay him and ask, how did he come to wear all three of these religious awards? He told me his Scout Pack and Troop was sponsored by a Methodist Church, his mom was Jewish and his dad was Catholic. When he went to the various clergy to earn the medal, no one objected, as he was active and known in all the places. Talk about over achiever....

Our Council WB is tent city, and "School of the Forest" pavilions. Bugler is optional (depends on the CD). Sometimes, bring your own tent, sometimes, use the summer camp tents that haven't been taken down yet. Indoors? Only the dining hall for meals, unless it is done at the "optional site", then it is Patrol Cooking.... Rain? better bring your poncho. Yes, we do have shower houses, as per state requirements. WB worth it? As in all things Scouty, "it depends" , and I don't mean the commercial version. All Scouting is local, the work is done by whoever shows up, you will know the man's heart by the work of his hands, etc. If the course staff don't believe in the Patrol Method, Boy Led, Train'em, Trust'em , Let'em Lead stuff, it won't be the same in Duluth as in Manassas or in Salem. Yes indeedy, everybody's kilometerage will vary.

Wayback when, when Scouting had little competition, "The big thing he emphasises is that when he was that age he joined cubs and then scouts because frankly there was nothing else to do"" Rings true to me. My Cub Pack was part of a Softball League of Cub Packs. We did combination hikes, showed up at school in uniform, no problem. Now.... If the parent gives the child a iPad, what is the kid going to do? If the parent takes the child on a hike with his Cub Den, what is the kid going to do? If the kid is given a smartphone with a Pokémon app, what is the kid going to do? If the dad or mom sits down with the kid and builds a bird house, what is the kid going to do? It is a matter of choice. My parents did things with me, in a Scout unit. It is what they did. Now, my observation is very often, the parent expects, nay seeks out other things for the kid to do and learn from without the parent's participation. They look for an expert to take charge. Often, when the parent seeks out a Scout activity (Pack, Troop, VC) it is too late. The kid has his /her mind already set on what the cyber profiteers want rather than what an involved parent might want. Why are you and I communicating on this key board thing? Because we have too much free time and seeing others react to our words makes us feel good? Very possibly, but I would like to think we are here because we think Scouting is worth a kids interest and participation. The ideals communicated, the skills learned and practiced, the community and cooperation realized.... Maybe we can inspire each other to keep on inspiring some others locally ("All Scouting Is Local.") When we see these things relegated to the side in favor of the accountants' "bottom line" , we react and shake our heads sadly. If Irving truly sees Scouting as a means to a six figure income, as number of "Scout" times $24 equals success, then BP and GBB might truly have reason to roll over in their graves. I would like to think they (pro-Scouters) are better than that. I teach Cub Leader next month (in person!) and Knife and Axe in IOLS (haven't found away to do that in espace) . I think it is still worth while and so long as Irving doesn't interfere too much, I guess I will continue. See you on the trail! Buen Camino!

Calico: Good to see/hear you again. I like your comparison, it is appropriate. Prayer can come in many guises. We may not even recognize our wish as a prayer, but there it is: an expressed desire that somebody, someone , something greater than ourselves can make things different if not better. Good topic for the Faith and Chaplaincy forum. Issues and Politics? Nah.... Open Program ? Too general. F&C , yep. And the realization that, in effect, some may pray FOR rain, some for it to stop. We can categorize prayer, same as any subject of consideration: desire, thanks, admission-recognition, suggestion..... But we were talking about a CA Scout in a Troop. How can he be "reverent" and help in the group's "duty to God".

Maybe this should be transferred to the "Chaplaincy and Faith" forum, moderators? Oh, that's right. """This boy indicates a lack of all three. """ Stosh, while I might agree with your SOP here, how do you know, from this one posting ( welcome to our eCracker Barrel, LilSisKin) , that is the problem. The Scout seems to have a well developed faith defined, from that one sentence. I would think, perhaps, maybe, perchance, could be, the Scout doesn't have the World Experience yet to be accepting of "the other views of the elephant" . I have had to accept more knowledge of the other faiths of the world many times. And it ain't up to me to say that one is more better than this one. LilSisKin, is there more to the story?

Chaplain Aide is a youth position. If there is a named (adult) Chaplain, then the CA does that, he "aids". Usually, the CA is not elected, but is "given the chance" by the SM. As in most clerical positions, one should have a "leading". I would never tell a Scout "YOU are going to be the CA." ( It is not unusual for a Troop to not have one). Such appointments are rarely successful. Elections? "All right, who wants to run for SPL? Any nominations?" Compare with "OKAY, who wants to run for Chaplain's Aide? Any one feel so led?" I cannot fathom having an election for CA. That assumes the position can be "chosen", but , as with good clergy (as opposed to not good? Another discussion), the person can be trained, and will benefit from the training, but how they perform their duties is another thing. A church/temple/mosque might decide to "hire" one person over another as their spiritual leader ,but that's just it, they will be paying them for that service. The CA is a VOLUNTEER. If he is not spiritually led to BE the CA, nothing like an election will make it so. All that being said, the CA has , as his "flock", the boys of the Troop. If the Troop is all of one faith, do what is appropriate. No problem. If it is of mixed faiths, He must realize, as Catholic Father Mulcahey in MASH comes to realize, that his faith , well founded and firm as it is, may not fit another person, and so his performance must be adjusted accordingly. It almost sounds like (could be wrong here), the SM may have some ulterior motive in setting something like this up. And too, praying "in the name of Jesus" is fine with me. I need all the help I can get. "Salaam Aleichem" is okay, as is the "birkat kohanim". If yours is a "boy led" Troop, usually the boys are more attune to these vagaries than us poor set in our ways adults. If it were me , I (as SM) might appoint the interested lads, each, as CA for a period of time and see what threshes out. Or, maybe let the "candidates" form an interested committee and let them discuss it. See the Chaplaincy Facebook Page for more discussion: https://www.facebook.com/groups/103580129706482/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/103580129706482/ See you on the trail!

Chestnut... I would think yours is Chinese Chestnut, yes? Growing up, our Troop had a campground that abutted some old lumbering land. It was a hike to the site, but worth it, we found. The dead American Chestnut stacked up was our prime fuel. It was then more than 30 years old, but still very solid, split and cut, it burned with a blue flame. Very hot, coals for cooking. Nothing like it since. One can still find American Chestnut stumps along the AT, in Shenandoah NP, elsewhere along the Appalachians, the roots still send up a green shoot which will grow for a year or two or even three and then succumb to the blight . But wait, there's more... https://www.americanforests.org/magazine/article/revival-of-the-american-chestnut/

""thrown under the bus." Please, not another traffic accident....

Hoot Hoot. Owl be seeing you....