skeptic

Moose; Or.............You could see contributions again increase due to the silent majority who usually do not weigh in. That is what happened the first time this really hit; people came out of the woodwork to donate "directly"; and many dropped United Way when they withdrew support in some areas. It is not nearly as accepted as some think. Poll respondents are almost always NOT particularly representative of the larger population, no matter what some will suggest. I know I seldom ever respond to the annoying polls that arrive through the telephone, or occasionally the mail. JMO of course.

Have you reviewed the "Scoutmaster Minute" threads here?

Projects were not required until the mid 60's, so that far back is unlikely. We have a couple of photos in our troop scrapbook from the late 20's or early 30's of mountain lions hanging from ropes on tree branches back when there was a bounty in our area. I believe alligators were also a bounty animal at one time. So, if project "had" been in effect then, maybe that would have been acceptable.

Rather than a new OA; "the Old OA". Return to the days when elections "were" an honor, and not simply an expected perk of making First Class. That would not be too hard; simply reinstate the older election requirements, perhaps with a few adjustments to the newer program. Personally, I would prefer to have optional adult requirements that "could" recognize adults who support the core camping in troops by being on most outings, and becoming trained in high adventure and outdoor elements, as well as Trail Boss and such, even if they are unable to spend a full week with a unit in the summer due to family or work responsibilities. Finally, make the Ordeal meaningful again in some way, including returning some control on candidates that simply refuse to adhere to the challenges during the 24 hours or so. They mean nothing if there is no accountability to NOT meeting them. The ridiculous idea that you cannot still do these things without hazing or something is just that, ridiculous. But, what do I know; I am old and out of touch?

Shortridge; nowhere did I say that Gays or homosexuals are troubled. I said that some are, usually the most expressive ones that cannot keep from being in others' faces, and causing other's to react. And yes, the comfort of the majority sometimes takes precedence; and that has nothing to do with equality. But this also would be the case with an animal abuser, or a scout on drugs, or an arsonist, or any number of other possibly troubled youth that could be a part of the group. They have no more rights than the others to "act out" and cause friction.

So Shortridge; would you prefer to chance another McInerney situation? If the school had responded to the situation by removing the main source(s) of friction, even though it might not seem fair, this would not have happened. Kids do stupid and irrational things; and in today's world, they often seem to think they have a right to over react and injure or kill. That is what I meant when I note "becomes a threat or makes it an issue". The same thing would occur should a scout choose to do other things that cause similar frictions. The safety, and yes, comfort of the majority is more important in some cases. Most kids in scouts who might be struggling with this would not likely make it public or be in the faces of others, so it would not really be a problem. But no group working with kids should be expected to put up with behavior or language that is disruptive or dangerous from their participants indefinitely. At some point, the hard decisions have to be made; and that likely will be at the expense of the more troubled individual. Again, I do not understand how so many cannot accept realities that actually happen. We are not psychologists or social workers(not usually anyway); and we should not be expected to deal with over the top, emotionally destructive issues just because the individual is troubled. The majority within the unit, at some point, takes precedence. This seems like common sense to me; but of course "common sense" is often not PC.

Yep; all the blather about how out of step BSA is really is nothing to the majority of the membership in actual units. When push comes to shove, if it is your own kid who "might" be directly exposed to even remotely possible negative examples, the parents will side with the safest idea. In this case, no matter how much we hear about how Gays are not threats, and so on, especially males, the parents in the end will prefer to "not take a chance". Also, it is really tiresome to continue to hear how we do not allow Gay kids either, when the policy is specifically aimed at leadership. The only time a Gay kid would be asked to leave would be when he becomes either a threat to other scouts, or insists on making it public, which then causes friction and controversy. Anyone in the schools knows how actual adolescent boys react to even the hint of someone being Gay, or being called Gay. We have enough preteen and adolescent angst with which to deal, without having to moderate this on the youth level. The PC people will "never" accept the fact that the LGBT community "is not mainstream", just because it is cool to be PC and not face reality. That famous "silent majority" is still simmering in the background; and it could at some point reach its breaking point. Still, National is erring in NOT making local choice the option. As noted, then most of this would simply disappear. Sometimes I wonder how people can be so blind to the real world, and what goes on around them. Surely what I see in the schools regularly is common, maybe even more so in less liberal states, since I am in So Cal. Or, maybe I am simply imagining it all. JMO

Pack; do not see anyone suggesting B.P., the original, did not make poor decisions or bad choices. Only saying that in this particular case, his pseudo namesake is way over the line; or at least that is how I see it based on his really ugly comments. JMO of course.

BadenP: Every time you post your nasty comments on this subject, your theoretical namesake likely rolls over in his grave in Africa. Having his name attached to such bile must be very uncomfortable. For someone professing to be a Christian minister, I wonder why you cannot see your misperception.

Take a look if you might be looking for somewhere not far from L.A. Besides summer camp, they are open to year round use. They do have snow in winter, though is always a roll of the dice. No fires in camp, but have a bowl. Also have other options if you want to invest a bit more, including cabins and dining hall. I will be up there all next week with my own unit and 3 provisional's. http://campthreefalls.blogspot.com/

We have sold greenery at Christmas for many years, getting them until recently from Sherwood Forest. They had an excellent product and were very helpful; but they were inflexible on quantities and case lots. As the unit got smaller, we no longer were able to support their min's. After writing off the profit two years in a row because of the min's, we changed to Mickman in 2010. While we are not making huge profits, we have potential to increase, and Mickman is anxious to help however they can. We definitely would have more profit if we were closer to them though, as the adds about 20% to our base cost, which of course cuts into the profit margin if we are to sell at reasonable prices. But their case lots are much smaller, and they have no min's. More importantly, they have an excellent product choice and also have the conservation link in tree planting related to product sales. Our biggest challenge is simply getting out in front enough to get descent orders, and to get full unit participation. Having popcorn overlapping is a bit difficult as well.

Please explain in non emotional terms why BSA should EVER change the atheist response. God, or specific spiritual belief beyond self, is part of BSA. That is simply the fact. If people do not like that specific element, then they simply can find other avenues. This constant "they need to change because we do not like this or that" is ridiculous. Just MHO of course, and I know there are individuals that somehow think this is wrong. So please, keep your insults or childish remarks to yourselves.

Just wonder what the thoughts are on reincarnating district or community COH's like were common in the 50's and 60's. I remember them being very positive events in local papers, and also made us more aware of other units outside of COR. They often included skits or demo contests, and gave out most awards, including seniority, adult recognition's, and Eagle or Palms.

"Scouting is not mandatory. If you don't like what it believes, go do something else that fits your beliefs. And if you don't live your life according to the tenents of Scouting's beliefs, don't expect to remain part of the organization. Simple." Just responding to Brewmeister Merlyn. Only tangentially connected to your original thread.

Oh come on Brew'; that makes too much common sense. It is much better to complain and try and force them to change for you, rather than simply not associate with them. After all, it their right to make sure no widely recognized group can disagree or follow their own way without interference; even though they would complain if someone (actually have on occasion)suggests they should change their views. It really comes back to people being too full of themselves as I have noted numerous times. Back to preparing for camp and worrying about my own unit and its program. Do not have time to go beating the local council for possible under the radar atheists or Gays. Still think local option is the best answer and hope National eventually recognizes that as well.

If I remember correctly the union backed off pretty quickly, as they got very little sympathy or support, but lots of critcism. The very first project I encountered as SM was really different. He had noted broken and obscured street signs, or ones that turned around, as well as broken curbs and so on. He laid out a plot map with assigned sections for walkers or bike riders to survey, compiled it all into a master list, then put it on a master map. Lot of work that the city seemed thrilled to have. Of course, they barely followed up on most of the issues, which is sad. There was the project by a scout to update and make more ecumenical the military prayer book his grandfather had in WWII. It became a national distribution from what I understand, and included most religions and beliefs. But no matter if it turns into a major, national project of some sort, or simply fills a local need in a park or school, communities throughout the nation benefit with hundreds of thousands of free work by these scouts. I really do not think most critics of scouting have any idea how much practical good is done through scouting, both boy and girl. They are too wrapped up in their PC worries that mostly just show how insecure and ignorant they are. JMHO of course.

Another example of today's egocentricism.

Have been on and off RT staff and now have sort of had it dropped on me by the resignation of the leader. Have had fewer than a dozen, including staff and exec at the past few meetings. The only meetings at which we get a decent turnout are popcorn info night, which became the popcorn kickoff this past year, SFF setup and area coverage to avoid overlap if possible, and before recharter. Thinking we might be better off to go quarterly at a physical meeting and simply do on-line RT of some sort otherwise. Do like the idea of ALL units being part of the staff. We too have meeting overload issues, as well as distance for some. Hope that we soon get a volunteer for a new leader, as I really do not want the job, along with all my other hats.

Basement: Both of those could be very time consuming, depending on the prep work and size of the areas. A wheel chair ramp needs to theoretically meet certain minimal standards in most states, and would need to be dug out and have forms constructed if cement, then be leveled to the correct slant. It also might need a special surface treatment. Having not seen the extent of course, cannot judge what you speak about. As far as mulching goes, it again can become a very labor intensive project, especially if done with scouts using hand tools. But, yes there are occasional really weak projects; but they still meet the absolute minimum one would hope (assuming that the district/council advancement people properly review before and after).

Not sure what projects you saw, but in our district and council they average at least forty to fifty hours; some are well in excess of 100, while a few are extremely high and probably a bit over the top. Yes, a few likely come in around 20 or so, but not many. There is not actual amount, so it simply has to meet the intent and show leadership. Total hours also includes his own planning time.

Is this a violation? Cubs with a wagon!

Actually are pretty good, though you need to actually follow up with practice and individual work. They definitely give viewers a basic grasp of the requirements.

POSITION Im neither right nor left and certainly not center. To me to be among the silent majority means to be among the dead. And for me not two or ten or two hundred make up a minority. Every man is such because every man is different. If I met a man who looked like me and thought like me and walked and spoke like me and was in no way different from me only then would I consider slaying him for he would have stolen from me all those truths and all those lies I'd found out for myself. All the living that had brought me here that man would have erased by being just like me. But kill a man unlike myself ? Not likely. There might be something I could learn from him. There is so much I need to know, why there are no butterflies in the worlds backyard, and when I find it out I need to know how to get them back. Men trample beauty underfoot like it was gravel. These actions are confined to no one country but I resent it in my own because I love my country. Could it be that men join clubs as men carry them for security. But from what ? My security is my country and everything I am in life and everything I know and everything I care about revolves around it. And I live in America and I find its face not ugly except sometimes. -from The Power Bright & Shining, 1985

Actually Merlyn, the standing issue likely will eventually reach the high court with the San Diego case. The lower court's ruling on standing is thin at best, and completely illogical (logic is not always used in these decisions obviously) in that the primary litigants "never" actually tried to use the facilities because the very idea of even dealing with the BSA would somehow cause them emotional trauma. Reality is that they would not have been turned away in the first place if they had actually applied; though their first choices may have been taken by others, including scout units. I just wish this one would finally get to SCOTUS, as it just reeks of questionable rulings almost from the start, and is one of the best examples of the activist court. Yes, I know you disagree and think the public good is not a factor with the cases. If the scouts should lose the camps, the city and area will be the real losers. None of the government entities have the wherewithal to administer the "open to public" facilities or to maintain them, especially in this economy. So, Balboa, or at least the areas without buildings, would likely return to the natural state and become overgrown and another fire concern. And the Mission Park facility would likely be closed or become a private park with exorbitant costs. This just reflects the self centered positions of those bringing these suits. You will call it whining, or some other juvenile comment; I just call it logic and reality.

Just experienced this a few weeks back when a scout, after finishing OA Ordeal and just staying the night for morning ride, walked across the area near my cot, then sat down on a log. It unnerved me because he pretty much did not respond, other than saying yes when I asked him if he was okay. I was just preparing to change some clothes before getting in my bag, and I was under the stars with a cot. It was like he was simply sitting there staring at me. He finally got up and went back to his bag and went to sleep; the others in the area were all under the stars too. Next morning he had no memory of it. His mom says she has never seen him do it either. But, he had had a very long day and previous night; so that seems related. I had just laid back on my cot and sort of watched him until he went back to his bag. Then finished getting ready for the sack. Years ago had a scout actually get up inside a bag and sort of hop around in his sleep. I was ready to stop him, as he was headed in the direction of a drop off into the creek; but he laid back down and went back to sleep. Again, he did not remember; but his mom said he had been doing it off and on for a number of years. This was the first time he had slept outside a tent, so that may have had something to do with it.