shortridge

And everyone, ultimately, works for the chartered organization and its designated representative. That's the bottom line. If the CO wants you to do things a certain way to carry out its program, you do it. If you don't like it, find another CO in which you are better agreement with.

Why do they want to do this, instead of just going hunting and camping on their own?

We've been had by the worst kind of troll ... a commercial troll. The OP made four posts in one day, all promoting this video. The actor involved, Sean Scarlett, is 26 years old. Judging by the antiquity of the POR patch, that's a shirt he picked up at a thrift shop. I'm not giving this goofball any more of my time or mental energy.

Not to push Oak Tree out of the way ... but I interpreted (sort of) as a reference to the fact that you can wear the Eagle and AOL knots as an adult to represent the actual awards you earned as a youth. You can't wear the actual badges, thus the (sort of).

I'd support the gummint program, no matter how bad it smelled. Way too many of my friends right now are facing just that position of financial ruin Beavah describes because somebody else screwed up the companies that employed them, leaving the lowly peons sans income or insurance. Scoutldr - The problem with that idea is that what's catastrophic differs from person to person, depending on their income. What about a series of expensive medical tests to rule out a potentially fatal condition? Well, that's not catastrophic, the insurance companies would say, that's diagnostic. You going to pay full price for that X-ray your kid's pediatrician ordered to make sure that hacking cough isn't something else? And backing away from the model of preventive care that doctors have been pushing for so long - well-child visits, regular checkups, etc. - would lead to far more problems down the road.

Your DE is either an old-timer or has been getting training from the old-timers. That used to be the way it worked, but it is no longer. The BS Handbook outlines the process for earning MBs from a Scout's perspective, and you can see there's nothing in there that states you have to be *any* rank to do a badge. Ask your DE to show you where that alleged rule is written. He or she won't be able to.

If Geico put the same types of restrictions on buying its insurance privately as Aetna does, car owners would be up in arms. Too many miles? OK, your rates just went up. Car has a loud muffler? Another surcharge. And don't even think about what those replacement sparkplugs mean for your bottom-line costs. Also consider how much you use your auto insurance vs. how much you use your health insurance. One is for catastrophic diasters - an auto accident. The other is for routine wellness. You wouldn't think about calling in a claim for a flat tire. But you'd definitely bill your insurance for a doctor's visit for your kid with the measles. They're not really comparable at all.

Beavah - Your points are very, very interesting, and have made me think a lot about teaching and time distribution. However, I'd point out that not every skill has to be taught to every Scout using the EDGE system in order to be mastered. If a Scout practices a knot on his own, using the book and a parent to help him, tying it over and over until he masters it, and then shows his PL to sign it off at the next meeting, are you going to say "No - you didn't do it the EDGE way - I'm not going to approve that?" (I don't think you would, because you seem like a very reasonable guy. ) I mastered a lot of those basic skills like that, working on my own. I didn't need to hear some grownup read the explanation of heat exhaustion right out of the Handbook - I'd nearly memorized it myself. I've also "taught" a lot of Scouts skills they already knew. For example, in teaching Pioneering MB, if the entire group already knows how to tie a bowline, I don't waste time going through the whole process, do I? I demonstrate it once, watch them do it, make sure they can tie it more than once and show me how it's used, and move on. It takes much less time than one would think. My first example really brings up one of my major beefs with EDGE - it assumes a traditional teacher-student relationship, where one person has the knowledge and is seeking to impart it to those lacking. That approach ignores alternatives, including self-directed learning and group learning, that may work for some young people far better than instructor-student methods. Not all knowledge or skills come from on high.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Lars, Congratulations! If I might pick your brain... what did your crew consider or do for its "daily devotionals"? I've not come across that term in Scouting before. Just curious.

Gunny - do you find that works better than having a designated/rotating fireguard, or putting the trash/food check in the hands of the dinner cooks/grubmaster?

From the unit money-earning application: Typically, council popcorn sales or Scout show ticket sales are approved uniform fund-raisers. Anyone ever sell tickets to a Scout show? Anyone ever have a Scout show aimed at the public?

Nope. When in doubt, ask the story-teller to show the alleged policy. If they can produce it, great; if not ...

Some rules I have seen enforced or enforced myself: For car-camping situations... only adults are allowed to connect and disconnect the propane tanks. At summer camp ... NOTHING hanging on the outriggers ... everyone brings a pen and a notebook. Working at the camp trading post ... no shaving cream sold to kids who can't shave ... attempt to talk kids out of buying those wire-ring pocket saws. Generally ... no whittling while walking (common sense, right? not so!) ... walking staves only, no random sticks ... no bug spray near the campfire ... no throwing rocks ... no throwing dirt clods ... no throwing sticks ... no throwing [insert random object here that Scout gets it in his mind to throw] ... no tying people up/to trees ... and lights out at 11 p.m. means just that. ########## Twocubdad - I'm curious - how do folks in your neck o' the woods differentiate between Coke and Pepsi products? "Give me a coke Pepsi?" "Give me a Diet Coke coke?"(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Wow! This school must be the safest school in the country. Furthermore, I assume that cafeteria cooks aren't allowed to use sharp knifes to cut food, there are no tug-of-war ropes in the gym, school administrators are not allowed to use pens, there are no razor blades in the classroom pencil sharpeners, computers do not have cables hooking them up, windows are boarded shut (using glue, not nails or screws) to replace the glass, that flagpoles are gone from the American flag in the corner of the room and that there is no water running in any of the toilets or sinks. People can be killed or injured using all of those things in various ways, accidentally or intentionally. I stopped carrying a pocketknife in college shortly after the 9/11 attacks and I had to hand it over at a security checkpoint. I now go into government buildings and courthouses on a daily basis as part of my job - the hassle would be too much. I do have one in my car, however.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Personally, I wouldn't use balsa wood for beginning carvers. It's so soft that if their knives are half as sharp as they should be, it'll slip right through almost too easily and have the potential to get someone hurt. You could try soap carving - get good thick bars of plain Ivory. It has a bit more resistance than balsa. (And you'll be able to clean a wound when someone slices themselves open... kidding, kidding.) If you have wood of the right dimensions, try a spoon. It's simple, functional and everyone knows what it should look like. Some kids (and adults!) just can't envision the three-dimensional figure trapped in that square or rectangular block of wood, so if you have a real 3D example, that'll help.

OK, I see where you're coming from now. Thanks. I just get a little hinky whenever anyone starts talking about the "Eagle spirit" or "once an Eagle, always an Eagle" - implying that there's something almost mystical about earning the Eagle rank that separates Eagles from everyone else. There's clearly not. It goes back to "Scout spirit," as you said. And I much prefer the phrase "once a Scout, always a Scout."

Just keep in mind it doesn't say anything about having to have earned the Bear badge before you can carry your Whittlin' Chip.

Going a bit off-topic, for which I apologize ... "Another way to look at this is that aside from the material things associated with Eagle, this rank is a state of being. It is an affirmation by the individual of a covenant with the rest of the world that he will do his best to live up to the spirit of scouting as he understands it." Wow. That's awfully high-falutin' for me. Not sure I swallow it. What is there in the Eagle rank requirements, process or literature that portrays things in this light? And what makes Eagle different from Life? Really, functionally, practically - besides some more merit badges, a bit more time in office, a service project and a higher-level BOR? And why is Life not a "state of being," but Eagle is?

"I've always liked Kudu's thought test for First Class, eh? Would yeh trust the lads to plan and execute food (or whatever) on a patrol trip with no adults or senior scouts at all? That's what da signoff is supposed to mean, eh? Something the Boy Scout is able to do. For himself. On his own. I just don't see most boys gettin' there on their first try." What about a capstone patrol trek built into the requirements? Or even as a local troop tradition - once you earn First Class, you're allowed to lead your patrol on an independent adventure? That could set up a great incentive.

"I have a troop where my step son attends where the father is paying his son $50.00 per merit badge and $100.00 for Star, $200.00 for Life and $400.00 for Eagle." Wow. And that's all I have to say about that.

I really like the way some folks here have described FCFY, as a program framework that allows Scouts to earn it that quickly if they're so inclined. Not every Scout will, and not every Scout should. But no one should be held back from advancing because of the troop only camps six times a year, for example. I was one of those SuperScouts. I crossed over at the Blue & Gold and had First Class by December. Looking back, the troop provided the opportunity, and I took advantage of what was offered. As simple as that. But there were other things that helped: - I was already very much into the outdoors. I'd spent much of my childhood to that point exploring the swampy area behind our house, read every book I could get my hands on about camping and had been fascinated by explorers and outdoorsmen from an early age. - I was chosen as PL of the NSP, which drove me to read my Handbook until the cover fell off, go to JLT, and practice, practice, practice everything I could in order to teach my patrol mates. - I went to a great first-year camper program at summer camp, led by a crusty old Scouter who was a fantastic instructor (not a wet-behind-the-ears teenager). - I took and completed Wilderness Survival MB that first summer camp. It was such an amazing experience that to me represented the epitome of Scouting - no-nonsense outdoor adventure. It fired my imagination and launched a passionate love affair with my local council camp that continues to this day. If I'd been "made" to take Basketry or Nature or some other badge because my SM believed young Scouts shouldn't take "tough" MBs, my Scouting career would have been much, much different. - The troop had a very active outdoor program. We camped 12 months a year, come heat, rain, snow (we wished!) or high winds. - My parents both joined the troop with me - dad as an ASM and mom on the committee. They didn't push me or clear my path - in fact left me alone to sink or swim - but having their support was crucial. They knew that Scouting was important to me. - I had a fantastic Scoutmaster who humored my youthful barrages of questions and took me under his wing, even loaning me copies of his old Boys' Life magazines (the ones with real articles, and the Tripod novels serialized as comics - awesome!). - I made mistakes and learned from them. Like on our first campout when my very hungry patrol was cooking hot dogs for lunch ... putting them in a pot over the fire ... one hot dog at a time. And the time when I packed in such a hurry that I forgot to bring pants or a long-sleeved shirt, and we had really high winds off the water and I had to walk around shivering in my plastic poncho. I learned then, and laughed later. - But perhaps most importantly, by the time my Webelos den crossed over, we'd already done a lot of the basic T-2-1 stuff through Readyman and Outdoorsman - over and over and over. Tying knots and demonstrating how to stop bleeding is easy when you already know how to do it. And setting up an A-frame tent is a snap when you already made a plastic tube tent from scratch and camped in a bedroll for two years in a row at the annual den overnight. Earning First Class was actually pretty easy. P.S. I never mastered pancakes, however. I still can't cook them very well 20 years later. Give me a good piece of french toast any day.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

bpaul, On the Totin' Chip issue, there is absolutely no "BSA policy" or "National guidance" on cutting corners, tearing the card in half, etc. A unit may have its own policy as set by the PLC, but there's no mandatory anything. Personally, I think a four-strike rule is stupid. That gives a Scout who's already proven to be irresponsible or forgetful about basic safety rules three more chances to hurt himself or someone else. A goofy "policy."

"Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization." -- attributed to BSA attorneys in a 1998 case http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108666,00.html

A Scout who has earned the Totin' Chip can have it taken away if he has four corners cut off, one for each transgression of the rules. Only summer camp directors can wear Smokey the Bear hats. There is such a thing as a Class A or Class B uniform. An Eagle project must be a certain number of hours. Non-members are barred from observing Order of the Arrow ceremonies. Certain skits, songs or cheers have been banned by [council, National].(This message has been edited by shortridge)

The parents of that troop should be asked, point-blank, whether they'd allow their Scouts to purchase the fireworks they're selling and use them on a camping trip. "Local councils may not authorize any group or chartered unit activity for or on behalf of its members..." - CLEARLY states that groups such as "parent organizations" may not sell fireworks and then transfer the money to the unit. It'd be like the PTA selling beer and giving the money to the school's driver's education program. The end does not justify the means.