shortridge

"One chief value of scouting is providing a context in which a boy can stand on his own two feet and relate to adult men." I'd agree with that statement only after editing it to read "adults." Why should Scouting only teach boys how to interact with men?? Are there no women at the workplaces, colleges, schools and military institutions where these boys will be growing into men?

Did that Activity Uniform include official tan BSA shorts, or the greens?

Sorry, duplicate post.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Besides, as far as I can tell, the only thing a man can teach a boy that a woman can't is how to pee standing up. Bravo to you, gwd, and thanks for that line. I'm definitely going to borrow that. - - - JS - No, we adults aren't members of the Boy Scout program. We're volunteer leaders.

JS - Women aren't members, they're leaders. Huge difference. The "Boy" in the name refers to the youth members, obviously. If it were the Male Scouts of America, you'd have scored a point.

eghiglie - They could have simply taken a look at parts of American history where "liberty and justice" certainly were not for everyone. Slavery, no vote for women, sweatshops, Jim Crow, etc. The Oath and Law aren't really comparable to the Pledge, IMO. The former are declarations of personal values and actions; the latter connects the person reciting it to the history and values of an entire nation, with all the aspirations - and baggage - that come along with that. That makes it a much harder sell.

"This lets him know that the culture of Scouts is to show an expected level of respect by standing. It's important that everyone does it, as that is the culture." Not true. Perhaps it's the culture of this den or pack, but not for all of Scouting.

For what it's worth, though it may not be germane to this discussion ... Scouting is open to both American citizens and non-citizens. We wouldn't expect a citizen of another country to recite our Pledge - which is, after all, a vow to our Republic - and thus can't expect every Scout or Scouter to do the same.

Out of curiosity, how many Scouts attended this camp during an average week? A 21-person program staff isn't very large (in particular, having just two people at the pool concerns me), but perhaps that's all they could justify given the attendance - just covering the bare minimum staffing requirements.

I was just shy of 11 when I was chosen as PL of my new Scout patrol after we crossed over from Webelos. It was kind of instinctive that I included myself on the duty rosters - it was a simple issue of fairness. Everyone pulled their own weight. Years later, I heard that point of view codified in the statement: "I won't ask you to do something that I won't do myself." I still really like that and try to live by it whenever I'm in charge of a project or program. It keeps me grounded and in touch. That said, as a practical matter, the PL can lay out the duty roster however he wants. If Sunday breakfast is a light meal, or if Saturday lunch is sandwiches and fruit on a hike, he might make himself cook on those occasions as more or less a coordinator, while showing everyone that he doesn't just hand out the assignments - he does them, too.

On the subject of extraneous patches ... there's nothing that I've read indicating that anyone HAS to wear a certain patch, whether it be the Trained patch or the World Crest or whatnot. If you're a 50-year Scouting veteran and want to wear a shirt right off the rack with the flag, BSA strip, council strip and unit numbers, go for it. That's all anyone needs. Above and beyond that? Your individual choice.

I've been thinking a lot about one of the points that the OP made, regarding age restrictions placed on participation. It's a very difficult issue. While I certainly agree that any Scout can take any badge at any time, I also see the point of view of the camp, which does not have unlimited resources or staffing and needs to keep things flowing from a sheer management-of-numbers, quality-control standpoint. During the five years that I worked at a summer camp, mostly teaching Scoutcraft MBs, there were MANY times that I wished I could have placed age restrictions on certain badges - or at the very least, required a skills test beforehand. The first-year camper taking Pioneering who doesn't know a square knot is going to have a very frustrating experience, and likely end up discouraged because everyone else in the class is five steps ahead of him. The 11-year-old signed up for Wilderness Survival who's been on two campouts before may have a very difficult time building a shelter and sleeping in it at a remote outpost. And both of those situations are going to be very tough for the counselor. You simply can't spend all your time hand-holding one Scout to the detriment of the others. Even the best MB instructor can't take a Scout with zero knot-tying skills at the start of camp and in five hour-long periods have him building a monkey bridge by the time he goes home, not unless there's 1-on-1 instruction. I'm sure the Shooting Sports director at the OP's camp felt the same way. If you have to spend half your time working with three 11-year-old Scouts on how to hold a gun and continually reminding them to keep it pointed downrange, the rest of your class is going to get cheated. It may not be the best solution - perhaps an introduction to marksmanship program for newbies might be a good bet? - but it works. HOWEVER... that said, part of me also strongly oppose flat-out, no-exception age restrictions, because I was one of those Scouts who would have been hurt by them. I took Wilderness Survival my first year at summer camp, at age 10.75. That overnight was when I fell head-over-heels in love with this Scouting stuff and with my local camp. If I'd have been barred because of some jerkwad camp director, I wouldn't be the person I am today. In an ideal world, the best solution would also be the easiest - for the Scoutmaster to take his or her gatekeeper role seriously, and do a realistic assessment of each Scout's basic skills and what the camp program can offer them.

The issue of underage, unqualified counselors is a very important one. Unfortunately, I'd wager most council camps simply ignore it. It would simply cost far too much to hire the sheer volume of 18+ counselors needed to run the camp. As a practical matter, you're not going to get any traction there.

Just an observation ... There are some among us, such as extremely hirsute souls, who look very silly in collarless shirts. Certain people even dislike t-shirts for this reason. I'm not saying I know any of these people, but there's a reason I have a lot of polo shirts in my dresser. I'd bring back the full-sized, useful neckerchief. That's such an enduring symbol of Scouting that I hate to see it fall by the wayside. Units could have their own designs, styles and materials, but make it required. Oh, and drop the bolos as an option. Personally, I'd ditch the khaki and bring back the green, maybe in lighter shades. It hides dirt a lot better. I don't quite understand the opposition to shoulder loops. What's the beef? There's no uniform that will be completely, 100 percent "camp functional." There's no shirt that can get sweated through during the day, snagged by branches in the afternoon, spilled on by dehydrated potatoes at dinner, dusted up by campfire ashes at night, rinsed out before bedtime and be dried out and ready to go by the morning.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Sheesh on me... I did mean all caps. Thanks, Oak Tree. Web site gets a capital W in my business, and I think it's weird-looking, too.

Definitely invite him along. He should tent by himself, not with the adult leaders, but be treated as part of the den leadership team. As a side note, Webelos doesn't need to be capitalized.

The youth leaders can take an informal poll and find out if there's support for doing both the caroling and the meal. If there is, they work up a plan and approach the SM with details on how both can be scheduled and accomplished. If he gets his caroling recruitment event, he should be happy that the Scouts also want to help the homeless.

Stupid question,but here it goes, if NYLT and WB21C are so similar, why would someone who went through NYLT as a youth, whether as a Scout or Venturer, want to go through WB21C when they become a Scouter or over 18 Venturer? Oooh, ooh! < waves hand in air > Beads!

Possibly answering two LDS-related questions... from lds.org: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints formally affiliated with the Scouting movement in the United States in May of 1913 as its first institutional sponsor, and today sponsors more Scouts and Scouting units in the United States than any other organization. Hundreds of thousands of young men are enrolled as Scouts in groups or units sponsored by the Church."

Codes of conduct? Discipline logs? Signature forms? Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but I don't see any need for any of that mumbo-jumbo. Kids know how to behave. They know what's right and what's wrong. If they're disrupting the meetings and they don't respond to what you say, you talk to their parents. If that doesn't work, they're gone. Plain and simple. It's the parents' job to discipline the kids, not yours. I'll agree that discipline logs, conduct codes, signature forms, etc., all mirror what the boys will be encountering in school. That's one of the main reasons why they SHOULDN'T be used in Scouting. The Promise and the Law of the Pack should be enough. These kids are subjected to enough boring legalistic garbage when they're stuck behind a desk. I served as a den chief for two dens. The den that used the silly "Conduct Candle" system and received regular leader lectures on behavior had far more discipline problems than the den that took the boys outdoors and kept them active. Have good programs and they'll be having too much fun to act up. If the issue is with the pack meetings, there are a lot of threads here about keeping meetings focused, offering fun program and even how to arrange a room that might help. I agree that because of the sheer size of those gatherings, they can easily slip into chaos if the Cubmaster isn't on top of his or her game.

This is such a phenomenally bad idea.

Thanks, click! I was looking at the requirements at scouting.org, not the Eagle app.

Household recycling. Get all your den families to contribute stuff they might normally chuck out... Paper towel/TP/wrapping paper tubes Scrap paper, cardboard Yogurt cups Scrap cloth (old blue jeans make great Possibles Bags) Metal cans CDs Paper milk cartons Soda bottles Newspapers Greeting cards ... etc. Think to nature as well: pinecones, rocks, leaves, flowers, sand. My father, who was a co-den leader, was a huge pack rat and had a giant garage. If he needed some scrap wood or some thin pieces of metal for a den project, he'd just go back in there, rummage around and emerge victorious. Find that dad or mom in your den (there's always one) who can't bear to throw stuff away. Also ask around - if any parents work in the building or electrical trades, chances are they throw a ton of "scrap" away each day - think metal, wire, tubing, plastic, wood... It's usually perfect stuff for Genius Kits or other activities.

"lol," "lmao" and "ha ha" do not automatically turn whatever was said before into a joke. Sincerely, Too Dumb

That's a vicious lie! Jackie Paper grew up, he didn't die!