shortridge

PeteM, Woah, buddy! I'm not sure what I said to get such a reaction. Chill out a bit, please. The way I read your initial statement was that Eagle Scouts have to demonstrate some sort of character qualities or traits above and beyond everyone else, which is clearly not true. From your reply, I understand that you're just referring to the Scout Oath and Law, which *every* Scout of any rank should be following. That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Consider a camp-out instead of a lock-in. No problems with space!

I have been into thrift-shopping for quite a while now, in three different states, and I have never seen a uniform piece for sale, in any size. Maybe that's a good thing - units are recycling them internally - but it means that the old "stop by Goodwill" advice doesn't really hold water for my local audience. EBay, on the other hand, presents many more options.

What does "absolutely nothing" mean? Did the patrol not exist? Or did he manage to recruit new members and the new Webelos, and then just did nothing to lead his patrol?

It clarifies your opinion versus how the program was actually designed to work. Thanks.

During all of my time in Cubs (late 80s) and most of my time in Boy Scouts (1990-), I can't remember many Scouts who owned the pants or shorts. Only the adults did. My first troop did have a very high degree of uniform pride, though, as we wore the red berets. They were sharp in a way the ballcaps won't ever look, and most people liked them. (Anti-beret flames will be cheerfully ignored! ) I didn't get my first completely full uniform until I started working on camp staff. I think it would have been different had the older Scouts in the troop, the ones we looked up to, emphasized the uniform. But they didn't bust anyone's chops. When we had kids showing up for late-fall campouts with jeans and blankets thrown in a plastic trash bag, there were bigger fish to fry.

OK, then. Guess that settles it. I apologize to everyone here for my complete ignorance. I'll just agree with the person in another thread who wrote: "Venturing is not an "in the box" type of program where every crew does exactly the same thing, there are a huge selection of options to choose from, and for many scouters thats makes them uncomfortable and leads them to think crews are not organized, which is just not true. Venturing is not a one program fits all type of unit, unlike cubs and boy scouts." I hope you have a good day, too, sir.

There's two-deep leadership, and then there's no one-on-one contact. Two separate things that often get confused. You don't need Scouts accompanied everywhere on a trip by two leaders, or have two leaders in every vehicle. I think that in this case, while it may not have been a YP violation per se, it was still a dumb move on the part of the ASM. If they'd simply strolled into a room of the museum where no one else was present, that's 1-on-1 contact, however inadvertent. He needs to understand that the rules are in place for his protection as well as the Scouts'.

Just a word of advice - Your DE is not going to be the best person to talk to about solving this pack's problems. He's busy with fundraising, recruiting and other bottom-line district operations. If everything's going reasonably well and this pack isn't on the verge of folding, Cubs running around in the gym and a den leader not knowing her den's number isn't going to rise to the top of his priority list. Ask him for the name of the unit or district commissioner. They're the volunteers whose job it is to support the unit program and leadership, and who can best help you assess the situation.

trainerlady, I beg to differ with your interpretation. G2SS: "Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. ... Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility." Hanging up temporary barriers does not somehow create another "sleeping facility." And the only G2SS section in which those blanket/sheet barriers are referenced is the one referring to youth and adults of the same gender sleeping in a single room - NOT the separation of male and female adults or male and female youth. The easiest way to get around all this, as several have pointed out, is to do true family camping, get out of the cabins and use tents. Bingo, problem solved.

Stosh - what are the dimensions of the Meyer's Flag your boys use? Do you buy the actual flag, or have a lookalike made up?

Just have to make sure they're completely freestanding designs. But that would certainly make for an easy solution, if your parents are utterly opposed to tent-camping outdoors.

I find it deeply ironic that I was lectured on another thread for my failure to understand the Venturing program by a person who has here clearly demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of the Venturing program. Venturing is NOT an outdoor-centric program. It is adaptable and flexible, based on the needs of the CO and the interests of the participants. A math and science award for Venturing is the equivalent of the science-oriented MBs I listed in my previous posts. It in no way distracts or detracts from the core values and purpose of the Venturing program. A young man or woman who earns the math and science Bronze could then turn around and earn the Ranger award. There's nothing preventing a crew from having multiple specialties, or barring a Venturer from having more than one interest. Any cries of "disaster, disaster!" or "they're corrupting the Scouting program!" are simply wrong.

I recall three types of camporee themes from my youth - (1) Klondike Derby, (2) Scout skills competitions and (3) Indian Lore. For all practical intents and purposes, the Klondike Derby was a Scout skills competition, just in the cold hauling around a sled. (It almost never snowed, so we didn't even have igloos! ) And with a couple of exceptions - panning for gold was one - it was all the same old stuff, over and over again. Knot-tying, wood-chopping, stretcher races, random teambuilding stuff, string-burning. A few random suggestions for better camporee planning... 1. Pick a new site. A district camporee doesn't have to be in the district! Try a location where few units have gone recently. The novelty will help keep their interest up. Holding it at the council camp every year may be cost-effective and give SMs a place to make their coffee, but it doesn't do much for the Scouts who already know the camp inside and out. 2. Pick a theme. Develop everything around this theme, from the opening ceremonies to the campfire. Wilderness survival, Indian lore, boating, first aid, pioneering - make it something very specific, and stick to it. 3. If you go the competition route, throw out the old playbook. Ban the skills contests that everyone's done 10 times before (especially rope-burning!) and pick new ones, ideally based around your theme. Pioneering contests could include basic knot-tying, basic lashings, splicing, advanced knots, rope tricks, block-and-tackle hauling, making a windlass ... all the way up to building a tower or monkey bridge. Wilderness survival events might include Kim's game to make a survival kit, scenarios based on different situations, first aid hurry cases, edible plant identification, flint knapping, water purification or collection and signaling. 4. Once the broad themes are selected, put it in the hands of the Scouts, at least a year in advance. Have each troop send someone to a planning committee - maybe the SPL, ASPL, JASM, OA rep - someone senior who can pull away from his troop and help run things at the event. 5. Continue the program on Sunday morning. As you might guess from my bolding, this is one of my pet peeves. I recently staffed a Cub family weekend where quite a few of the participants packed up and left right after breakfast, because the only program on the agenda was a chapel service. Unless your district is geographically huge or units need to get back to attend religious services on Sunday morning, there's really no reason not to continue the program through 11 a.m., with units packing up and leaving by noon. An awards ceremony and interfaith worship service alone won't get them to hang around. Have something fun, a big climactic experience, to hook the Scouts and keep them a little longer. Otherwise, what's the point of staying overnight? Just to say you slept in a tent? Pshaw! < note sarcasm >

So then why do Aviation, Animal Science, Astronomy, Computers, Composite Materials, Drafting, Electricity, Energy, Engineering, Environmental Science, Graphic Arts, Nuclear Science, Plant Science, Radio, Space Exploration and Veterinary Medicine merit badges all have a place in the BSA?

SctDad - My point is simply that rules are rules, and they are pretty clear in this type of case. Making "a genuine effort to afford the families an area to change in privacy" is not what the rules call for. You can't just say "Well, I tried, and no one objected, so it was OK." There are three rules that apply to this particular situation: - Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy a single room. - Male and female leaders must have different sleeping facilities. - Male and female youth must have different sleeping facilities. Sheets and blankets simply aren't enough.

BadenP, I'm in awe by your ability to assess the character, personality and attributes of someone who has earned a still-nonexistent award for which we have yet to actually see the requirements! Color me amazed.

I guess those same Scouters hate all the math- and science-oriented merit badges, too, then. You know ... those inconsequential nerdy badges like Aviation, Animal Science, Astronomy, Computers, Composite Materials, Drafting, Electricity, Energy, Engineering, Environmental Science, Graphic Arts, Nuclear Science, Plant Science, Radio, Space Exploration and Veterinary Medicine.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

SctDad, You still have to follow the rules. If you don't, you're not running the Scouting program.

I see two different types of behavior coming into play in these situations. There's foot-dragging, in which you likely have a Scout who's really not into "it" - whether we're talking about earning Eagle or Tenderfoot - and really doesn't care one way or the other. Perhaps his parents are pushing him, but he's not invested, even if he's come as far as Life. That Scout may just need a sit-down, come-to-deity-of-your-choice meeting, where you lay it out on the table. Maybe he does admit he doesn't care about earning the rank or the badge. At least then you know for sure. Then there's procrastination, often practiced by young men who've never learned time management and key personal organization skills. They get intimidated by the stack of requirements and put the pamphlets or Handbook aside for later, because they've got plenty of time - a few years, perhaps. No problem, let's go play some video games. By the time it gets to that critical point, they still haven't cracked the books, haven't examined the requirements to see how easy they are and how simple it will be to break them down into bite-sized, manageable chunks. And besides, they still have a couple months left, and it's just two badges and a project. And then it's two weeks, and then two days. And they still haven't cracked the books. And it's too late. Those boys are the much harder case. They're not going to admit that they were caught in a vortex of their own making. Some will, though. (I'm speaking here as a former procrastinator who's now a compulsive list-maker and advance planner ...) But in either case, chasing after them is wrong, IMHO. You can let them know you're available to talk, to counsel, to discuss - but it's their move. If they want it badly enough, they'll ask for help.

It certainly would be interesting to see the Venturing national registration breakdowns, particularly how many Venturers are also registered in troops, the stats on different types of crews - hobbies, religious life, Sea Scouting, HA, etc. - and the stats about how many of each type of award have been earned. IMHO, Venturing is organized a lot like Girl Scouting, where the quality of the program can vary widely from town to town and structure is occasionally lacking. And the approach of taking in existing groups (church youth groups, Civil War re-enactment clubs, etc.) and making them crews may lead to the impression that they're only paper crews, when they may in fact be very active on their own, just not within the broader Venturing framework. (But it certainly is an easy way for a DE to boost unit numbers! ;-) )

ScoutMKE, I would disagree with your interpretation that Venturing Youth Protection rules would not apply to Wood Badge if Venturers were allowed to participate. They are not participating as Boy Scouts, but as Venturers. And contrary to your statement, Wood Badge IS apparently now going to be a Venturing activity. It stands to reason that the most restrictive YP rules - that of Venturing - would apply, thus requiring four groupings: 18-20 males, 18-20 females, 21+ males, 21+ females. Philmont is not the ultimate authority on program guidelines, either. As a practical matter, though, we're basically talking about separate tents, designated shower times, both male and female adult leaders/staff members, and an "occupied" sign on the latrine. Nothing too onerous.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

I admit I've never run into this situation either. Family camping in my experience has always involved tents, or separate cabins for each family. But the way I read it, the sheets/blankets-as-dividers only works when you have single-gender groups in the same room, to separate the boys from the men or the girls from the women. That goes back to the section quoted by NealOnWheels: "Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations..." ... and also draws upon other sections: "Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. ... Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility." You thus can't have adults and youths of mixed genders occupying a single room. They have to be separated by gender by a wall and a door, not just a sheet or blanket (or packs and bags). Yeah, cabin camping sure can cause more problems than it solves, can't it? With proper planning and equipment, tents are perfectly fine. Even in winter, the right bedding and clothing can keep you toastier in a tent than some cabins can.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Absolutely. Without knowledge and skills, the "leader" is just babysitting, whether we're talking about a Patrol Leader or an Assistant Scoutmaster. The Eagle project concept gets it right - the Scout knows everything there is to know about the work to be done. He teaches, coordinates, supervises and manages, jumping in himself to do hands-on work wherever needed. Putting a PL or ASM with no experience in charge of a group and telling them "Lead!" without sufficient oversight and skills mentoring would be like a district or council dealing out pre-determined Eagle "leadership projects" like a deck of cards.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

I like the idea of 10-13, 14-17 and 18-21 groupings. Fourteen is the cutoff in many places for CIT positions on summer camp staff, for COPE courses and for various high-adventure programs. Boys can be at wildly different developmental stages from 10-13, but by 14 most are pretty much evened out. Youth could join at any age level, but have to complete some basic, introductory skills requirements at every stage - kind of like the Bobcat badge in Cubs. Make sure everyone at least has the nuts and bolts down solid before venturing off into the wilderness or floating away down the river. And just like teaching requirements are built into the Venturing awards system, working with the younger groups to pass on skills and knowledge would be an integral part of the program.