NancyB

Our son wanted to go but with another troop b/c he is afraid of his dad. DHS told me not to let him go b/c of pending investigations. BSA has been aware of this problem. So far, 3 divorces b/c of his behavior. One troop has kicked him and GF out. I tried to transfer our son to another troop, but that leader didn't want his father involved with his troop b/c he had concerns about his behavior also. I have a child who wants to be in scouts. If BSA had done their job and investigated him when the complaints were made, it would have been resolved a very long time ago. Our son wants to continue in scouts, but it is hard for me to take him when the other boys harass him about his dad being there. He has been harassed b/c his father was not discreet at all about his relationship with other married women. This leader has been allowed to continue his behavior with no consequences. We now have troop property missing. The troop has had to spend its own money to replace the property. I settled the original divorce to avoid having our son and the other scouts from testifying and he is taking me back to court yet again. Other parents are making complaints to the council about his behavior also. They are also being ignored. Other parents have gone so far as stating that they will remove their boys if the council doesn't do something. Another troop took action to remove him from their leadership b/c of his behavior. OUr council is too worried about a leader who has donated a bunch of money to worry about the boys. It's a very sad situation. I think I will let the police handle this since it is clear from several of those on this forum seem to think that I should close my eyes to a scout leader causing a scout's hard earned money to disappear. Would the BSA like to explain to our child that he can't go on high adventure b/c his money has disappeared? Why is BSA protecting the guilty? Did anyone stop to consider that it is this type of behavior that is the cause of the lawsuit out in Oregon??? BSA can have all the policies it wants, but if it doesn't follow them, then it's going to be getting a lot more law suits.

thanks. I will let my sister know. So far nothing that we know of has happened, but she doesn't want anything to. The guy is taking a risk b/c if she claims something did happen, it's his reputation and marriage that are at stake. I tried to explain to her that as a volunteer leader, she could run into trouble if she doesn't do something and looked the other way and there was an issue.

Thanks Schiff. Should I do this as a parent, get other parents to complain to police??? Our scoutmaster would love to do it, but he is seeing the heck the councils are putting me through b/c I opened my mouth about his affairs and his physical abuse of our son. My son's jamboree account (which the ex had control of) is also missing.

Here's a different twist on this question: My divorce decree clearly provides that my ex (whom I divorced due to physical abuse of our son and "inappropriate relationships" with other married female leaders) is not allowed to take our daughter on overnight scouting trips. Very clear in black and white. Less than a month later, he violated it by taking her to a 3 day, 2 night scouting event in another state. Not only did he violate it, but he drove her to the camp along with another married female leader with whom he was having an inappropraite relationship (please do not lecture me on my assumption - she confessed the relationship to her husband after he found text messages and hotel receipts and divorced her). Other BSA leaders and the scout master of the cub scouts helped him to cover this up. What responsibility does the BSA have on this????? I sent a very polite email to my local council and the scout master asking how they would handle this in the future and advising them of the problem. They ignored the email. I guess if he does it again, I will have to contact the police and have them pick up my daughter if she is at another camp. There are a variety of reasons why this order was entered by the judge, and the ex knew what he was doing. Just another example of the BSA protecting a leader who violates court orders at the risk of harm to a child. Personally, I don't think any parent should have a 10 year old girl along at a BSA camp. There are too many boys and no leader has the ability to watch all of them all the time and we don't need something tragic to happen. BSA doesn't need the publicity either.

The bottom line is that the school cannot endorse any group that restricts membership based on religion. Our school has before and after hours groups that are religious. The groups are not allowed to exclude anyone who does not match their religious beliefs and they must welcome anyone who wants to sit in on their meetings. This is the same thing as a school not being allowed to endorse or appear to endorse any group that restricts membership based on any protected criteria - race being a prime example. If a group doesn't allow blacks to join it cannot meet at school. If a group doesn't allow non-christians to join it cannot meet at school. School policy in most districts clearly states that the school will not disciminate based on certain protected categories, and religion is included in most of them. So even if the 1st amendment wasn't the issue, the school has to follow it's own policy. There are many federal civil rights laws out there that schools must follow beyond just the 1st amendment. Anti-discriminatory laws are the big ones and are very expensive if the schools don't follow them. (BTW in a past life I was a city attorney, and this has been an issue several times regarding use of the public libraries. Because of the anti-discimination laws, government entities have to be very careful to avoid even the appearance of endorsing any group that disciminates)

My son was signed up for jamboree by my ex without my consent. Ex was scoutmaster and his GF was asst. The reasons for divorce were his physical abuse of our son and his affairs with other married scout leaders (including current GF). On the advice of the dept. of human services who investigated the abuse (the bsa's failure to abide by the two deep rule was very concerning since his father had gotten out of line with him at past scouting events), I pulled my son out of jamboree and explained my reasons to him the local council and the Omaha council. I also asked that the money that he had raised be transferred to his scout account with his troop so that he could apply them toward high adventure and other boy scout activities. Several months later, still no money. I have been harassed by the BSA b/c I dared to open my mouth about the abuse and the affairs and other issues. He is now claiming that our son never participated in a single fundraising activity and there is no money. This is going to be litigated in court next week in a contempt case (he is still refusing after a year to provide complete ins. coverage for his son). So now my son will have to testify as will the other boys who were involved in the fundraiser. I have parents who are upset that their children will have to be subpoenaed to testify. granted, it's only 300 dollars, but my son sold water at a parade during 100 degree heat and worked hard. It is not fair for the adults to take his money, esp. a BSA leader. Any thoughts on how to resolve this? I really don't want to have to go to court on it but I can't tell my son to forget about the money. And yes, this is the same leader that the BSA has refused/failed to investigate for abuse for over a year. This is also the leader who still has property belonging to my son's troop (computer programs, health forms of the boys etc etc and other forms with private info) that he refuses to return. I am completetly frustrated by the BSA's failure to step in and do something/anything. At this point, I am considering filing a criminal complaint against the leaders of the jamboree troop. I would think that the BSA wouldn't want this publicity, but I will not let my son continue to be treated with such disrespect by the BSA. If anyone has any idea where I can go above the Omaha council I would appreciate it, b/c they have been covering for him for years.

My sister is a parent volunteer leader with venturing. There is also a 16 year old female in the group. She realizes that she is necessary b/c all of the other kids are male, as is the leader. She recently went on a camping trip and the male leader rode in one car with the 16 year old female (they had a scientific theory? that they wanted to discuss) with no one else present and she rode in another vehicle with the 3 boys of the group. The married male leader and 16 year old female would get up early to go jogging together before anyone else is up. She said that they often work out together at a gym. She is very uncomfortable with this and is worried that either the guy will do something he shouldn't or the girl will claim he did something she shouldn't. She has talked to a couple other leaders who said they are "watching him". But she is worried about her own liability if she doesn't do something. The parents are aware that they work out together and spend a lot of time alone together. Is there someone she should go to? Should she share her concerns with the parents? This girl is still in school and is a minor so if something were to happen, criminal charges could also be brought against him. She is worried that if she says something, she might be kicked out of the troop and she really enjoys it. She realizes that this may be completely innocent but the appearance is not and she would like to prevent any problems from occurring.

My disclaimer - I am an attorney and used to defend a fortune 100 company in harassment/discimination and other employment related matters. BSA wouldn't want to turn over the files b/c it may show that they didn't do the follow up they should have. It's info about other people etc. The files are relevant for a plaintiff to show a pattern and practice of the BSA regarding abuse allegations. BSA claims that they have rules and that they follow them. So the plaintiff needs these files to show that BSA doesn't or didn't in the relevant time frame follow them. Will the plaintiff be able to prove this? probably Does the BSA fail to follow through with its own rules: YES! AFter more than a year of making an initial complaint to both the local and Omaha councils, BSA still has not done an adequate investigation into my ex. He was placed on the child abuse registry the year after his background check was done. I have offered to BSA to interview the police, physician, therapist and anyone else they would like to interview so they can have full information and then make a decision. All I have ever wanted is for the BSA to do an investigation and then make whatever decision they feel is appropraite. My son is currently being harassed b/c the other scouts do not want his dad (a bsa leader) at the meetings. no one is protecting my son or the others. Neither my son nor the leaders who witnessed the events at BSA functions were ever asked by BSA officials for any information. At the very least, this is negligence. At the very worst, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Additionally, BSA has a two-deep leadership rule. My ex, who at the time was scoutmaster for jamboree, was living with his girlfriend who is the asst. scoutmaster. A employee of our local council was at the meeting when this was discussed and other parents and the scoutmaster expressed their concern about this clear violation of bsa rules. She did nothing. Several weeks later, I called our local office, they knew nothing about it. Promised to look into it. Several weeks later, called again, he didn't remember ever talking to me. Sorry BSA, lying to an attorney is a sure way of getting sued. I have no ill will toward BSA in general - just our local councils. And I pray that if nothing else that this trial will be a wakeup call to BSA to start protecting the boys before the lawsuits put them into bankruptcy. BSA needs to stop worrying about protecting its leaders and worry more about protecting the boys.

This is currently an issue in my son's troop. The ex-committee chair and ex-asst scoutmaster quit the troop under very nasty terms. He was upset that the scoutmaster and other leaders were no longer covering up his affair with the unit commissioner. He has refused to return any property belonging to the troop. He still has the troop's computer program and all of the boys' medical and health ins. forms. He has repeatedly refused to return them. The scoutmaster has gone to our local council - their solution is that they will help get new forms created. The troop still had to purchase a new computer program. The next step up is the Omaha council and they are of no help either. Both the local and omaha council have been covering up for this guy for some time. Parents are very upset. What can the troop and/or parents do? This is very private information that he has with people's social security numbers and everything. Since neither the local council nor the Omaha council will help, where can they go?

Thank you so much! His scoutmaster is making a list for me so I know what the troop has and what he needs to get. I did not realize that many of the stores had scout discounts. I have also been looking at craigslist etc to try and find things and didn't think about freecycle. I did some checking at the omaha area thrift stores last week but didn't have much luck. As an aside, to thank all of those wonderful leaders who are helping him and are following the Scout oath, I have signed up once again as a merit badge counselor and made a point to look for areas that had no counselor for those badges.

My ex-husband took all of our son's boy scout camping gear when he moved out (despite a court order that said the kids' belongings remain in the home where they are living) and has refused to give it back so our son can use it. What is really upsetting, is that most of this gear is the stuff he received from Canfields after all of his camping supplies were destroyed in the Little Sioux tornado. So he has an emotional tie to it as well as a need for it. I now face the expensive task of having to completely re-outfit my son with all of his camping supplies. At this point, I have asked his scoutmaster to help me with a list of needs vs wants for camping. (my son doesn't always understand the difference) they are planning a klondike derby so I know that it will require a better than average sleeping bag (last year's was about 20 below windchill). the boundary waters high adventure trip isn't til late summer, so I can hold off on things for that trip til later. I am fortunate that canfields, bass pro, and cabelas within 100 miles of us so I can check things out in person rather than just seeing it online. But I'm hoping that there might be some internet shopping sites that have good deals on the basic supplies that I will be needing. Also, any suggestions on brands to purchase or to stay away from would also be helpful. I had no idea that there were so many different brands/styles of sleeping bags and other gear. I am also hunting through craigslist and anywhere else to try to find gear at a reasonable price. Thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions. His involvement in his troop is a big part of his life and despite my very negative feelings about our council - both local and mid-america, the leaders of his troop have been a huge support to him through the divorce and everything that his father has been doing to him and to the troop. He was very worried that the other boys and leaders would hold his father's behavior against him, and it has been the opposite. So I really want to make sure that he is able to participate in everything, despite the financial burden that it is placing on me. BTW, the vindictive ex-husband who took his son's scouting gear is a jamboree scoutmaster. I guess he needs to review the Oath a few times.

The kids really need some type of education. People need to stop being afraid to teach kids. we teach them not to go with strangers, but they need more. My daughter is in Rainbow Girls and at a recent convention, one of the breakout sessions was on abuse. It's focus was on abuse in the dating environment, such as the warning signs that your boyfriend is getting controlling, if he hurts you etc etc and what to do if it happens. I was thrilled that they taught this to girls. It wasn't a birds and the bees lesson, but a lesson in real life situations. It also covered safety with adults. Why don't the boy scouts do something similar? One of the biggest problems is that boys are afraid/embarrassed to say if anything happens. I work as an attorney for abused and neglected children. Through my job, I can tell you that homosexuality and pedophilia are NOT the same thing. Heterosexuals are just as likely to be pedophiles as homosexuals - just look at the female leader in Illinois who is accused of having sex wtih a boy in her troop. Pedophiles are interested in the control aspect gratificaiton of the sex act, and they usually get it from having sex with children, who don't have control. They are often crimes of convenience and access. They often groom the victims for lengthy periods of time before they commit the offense, which makes the boys even more reluctant to tell. The boy scouts need to be more proactive and stop worrying about offending the leaders if someone has a concern. I have met with various council members over the last year on this issue and the overriding concern seems to be that they don't want to lose a good leader. If parents are expresing a concern about him, dont worry about losing him/her. You will probably lose more boys if the parents aren't happy with what is going on and that is a bigger loss to the troops. The scouts also need to rethink their attitude toward child abuse registries. My ex was placed on the child abuse registry in 2004 after causing a bleeding injury to our son. He hid this from the scouts and was recently removed from the registry after 5 years due to the non-life-threatening nature of the injury. He was investigated 3 times in 2008/09 for child abuse. Charges were referred in one incident, but since the injuries had healed prior to the investigation, no charges were filed. The child abuse findings were listed as unconfirmed. In nebraska, that means no physical evidence (child was afraid to report for a period of time). It doesn't mean it didn't happen. He is now the jamboree scoutmaster (his current livein girlfriend is the ass't scoutmaster - they were both having affairs during their marriages). I was told that since he is no longer on the registry, nothing will be done. As to his hiding the registry from the scouts - no harm no foul. The violation of two deep leadership - not a problem since he claims to only be living with her as a roommate to save money. However, the parents of the troop that they were trying to take over (they left their previous troop after the parents got fed up with the two of them), took matters into their own hands. They decided that they would disband their troop if they took over and made it clear to the council so they did a very early recharter and basically forced them out. I realize slightly off topic, but this shows that the BSA could have lost a lot of scouts due to parents worrying about the safety of their children b/c they were too concerned with losing a leader. And when - not if - something happens, would you want to be the leader defending the BSA about their choices. I know that is slightly off topic and I have expressed this concern before, but it shows that BSA needs to be more proactive. If they can't even follow their own guidelines about child abuse registry and two-deep leadership, then more and more of these incidents of child abuse will happen. As a lawyer, the fact that the Omaha area council failed to follow BSA guidelines will impact other cases. for example, the current lawsuit in the Utah area - if they show that BSA has a pattern and practice of not following their own safety guidelines, then they have a good chance of winning. Money that could have been spent on scouting will go to those victims. When the councils start worrying about being too politically correct, the boys will suffer, so it is up to the individual leaders and parents to take steps. This troop was worried about the moral wellbeing of the boys due to their married unit commissioner's actions in having affairs with other married leaders. They decided that this was not the moral message they wanted to be sent to their boys, so after the council refused to do anything, they followed the procedure to have her removed and to prevent the other married leader involved in the affairs from becoming a commissioner with their troop also. It can be done. the parents and local leaders need to be more proactive about preventing abuse since the councils are worried about other issues and only the parents and local leaders really know what the real situation is.

maybe just a meeting of those parents who had the complaints about the rubbing etc to let them know that it was addressed (don't need to go into any details) and is taken seriously and to tell them to report it if it happens again? I was just thinking that maybe if they don't know what happened, they may think it is not taken seriously and leave the troop. Hate for families to leave due to miscommunication. As for the "definition" --- he wouldn't be touching and rubbing if he didn't get something out of it!!!! Maybe not a disorder or something like that, but I'm sure he has a reason to touch......

Thank you for your comments. child abuse registry is different from sex offender registry. A person is placed on the sex offender registry after conviction. A person is placed on the child abuse registry if the state dept. of social services places a report that is determined to be founded/confirmed that the individual has abused or neglected a child in his/her care. The standard of proof is different. I do have sole custody at this point. I tried for protection orders during the proceedings, but was not able to get one since the abuse was not "recent enough". It is easy to hide abuse on a teen b/c most moms do not see their sons without clothing after a certain age. And a child can be threatened/intimidated into silence. In this case, the physical abuse was reported by myself, the victim's advocate office and our family physician. I have reason to believe that the school also reported concerns. My issue with him as a leader is solely his placement on the child abuse registry. I am honest about what else happened so no one can accuse me of trying to hide any allegedly secret motivation. The laws in our state prevent him from working in child care and other professions due to his placement on the registry. I only want the boy scouts to check into my concerns and then make a decision. As far as the information as to his most recent registry check, I asked at the local scout office and they pulled out his card and told me. As the parent, I can swear that the investigations happened. I was notified of his placement on the registry. I would be more than willing to provide the council with the names of all the investigators and let them talk to our son. He can describe what he experienced in going through the investigation and how it felt to have pictures taken of his injuries that his father caused. I just don't want him to be in a position to hurt another child b/c of his anger problems. When I initially told the appropriate person in our council, the first response was - but he's such a good leader, I can't believe he would do that. As far as his infidelity goes, I know that these things happen between adults, but when it becomes a problem that a child is staying away from meetings b/c the other boys are questioning him about it and other parents are upset about the behavior of the adults in question at a meeting, what kind of example are they setting for the boys? Are there families who are leaving quietly b/c they don't what their boys exposes to this type of behavior? What is the effect on the troop as a whole and its morale? My son has said that his reason for not going to jamboree is b/c he doesn't want to have to listen to the other boys talk about his dad and the other leaders b/c they haven't been discreet about their behavior. Thanks again for the suggestions.

A woman's point of view: there are backrubs and then there are backrubs. Us women can tell by body language which is innocent and which is not. But describing it in writing is kinda tough. By reading the original post I can visualize exactly what this guy was doing. and it wasn't right. this day and age, any man with a job has learned what types of backrubs and touching are innappropriate. As far as some of the women not saying anything - well, scouting is still a guy's world and women who are "intruding" have learned not to rock the boat or canoe. If we say anything, we're a whiny woman who doesn't belong. Sorry guys, for those of us who work in a male dominated field, we have learned that sometimes speaking up makes it tougher on us. Sometimes we are so surprised or caught off guard that by such an unexpected action that we don't react quickly enough. Sometimes we second guess our reactions to what was done - as in, did he really do that or did I imagine it? etc. so it does make it tougher for women to report something like this. I used to investigate sexual harassment complaints for a large company (male dominated work force), so I can understand the reluctance of a lot of women to make an issue of something. Also, once one woman does make a complaint, a lot of others will usually come forward b/c if they see that if it is handled appropriately, they feel safer in speaking up. It isn't a case of jumping on the bandwagon, but a lot of women are still afraid to speak up b/c they don't want any backlash on them. My feeling is that he served his time. but before he comes back, have whatever group do a sit down with him and explain that he is on a one strike deal. I would also have a meeting of all the parents to explain why he is coming back so that they are all on the same page as to why etc. or else you are going to have to deal with the gossip and speculations. they might think that such behavior is allowed in your group and you might have even more upset parents. If you leave it unsaid, you might lose others who go quietly away, which would be a bigger loss than just Mike. as far as the boat issue - handled and done. All adults have moments of stupidity. The parents need to move on unless he has a similar moment of stupidity. If that is the case, then it's a parent who doesn't understand the difference between horseplay and dangerous behavior. Mike needs to make his own decision as to whether he can live with the group decision. It's not about his need to follow the scout oath. The scout oath does not require we forgive and forget things like this. If he put his hand on a woman and the touch was unwanted - it's not just harassment, it's an assault. We were not there to observe the entire situation to see just how far he crossed the line. We don't know how Mike's wife felt when she was put into this situation. Does she feel safe in going to a scout function with him around? we don't know the answers to these questions, but I would bet that Mike does. So kudos to Mike for protecting his wife's honor. But it is still his decision as to what he feels is best for him and his family and his decision needs to be respected.