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Everything posted by Sentinel947

  1. I think we are talking past one another here. With a few exceptions, this forum is filled with Scouters who have given years, decades, multiple decades of service to Scouts and Scouting. There is much wisdom and experience here. By being on this forum, looking to learn and looking to help teach others, most posters help to give others the knowledge and tools needed to make our Troops successful. I learned a ton from forum members here. I've had my opinions and knowledge challenged and refined, and also grown to see that my Troop does some things really well, and some things pretty poorly. The BSA training is only as good as it's instructors, and the literature can be hit or miss. A web forum is a hard place to make a clear point. Especially since we are often times placing context into other people's writings based on our own experiences. I do my best, (but often fail) to try to read other peoples posts and interpret it with the most charitable interpretation I can think of. I love the Hillcourt quote @HelpfulTracks posted. Boys and girls join Scouting (not just the BSA) because it's supposed to be fun. It's an adventure. The ScoutHand books for a long time have had a letter from the author the CSE promising as much. A Troop that fails to deliver that promise is a failing Troop. However, Scouting does have a purpose beyond being fun and having adventures. One of Scouting's purposes was always to develop citizenship and character. Much of that is inherently built into the program. Scouts are in patrols, the patrols have leaders, they are supposed to lead themselves with adults removing themselves from the picture as much as possible. The patrol working together on an outing, or in an activity is a majority of the citizenship, character, leadership training. That being said, adults have a role to play. Clarke Green over at ScoutmasterCG.com summarizes it better than I ever could, using BP's own words. So I'll leave that to him. https://scoutmastercg.com/b-ps-blog-the-scoutmaster/ . There can be a time and place for a teachable moment between an adult and a Scout. There could be a time for instruction and education in leadership theory, but this is rare. Theory is only good when one has practical experience to compare against the theory and to apply the theory to. This applies to adults too. Developing strong leaders in education, business, government and the military is mostly about role models, peer interaction and mentorship. It's only a tiny bit of theory and formal education. There's no one size fits all approach to Scoutmastership. Each unit is going to be different, each Scout is going to have different needs. Each group will require different approaches. The question we should always be asking ourselves as Troop leaders is "Are we furthering our mission?" Followed closely by "Is this fun?" Followed lastly by "Is this effective?" Unfortunately since B-P's day, laws around minors have changed, parents expectations have changed, and the liability lawyers lurk waiting to pounce and fatten their wallets. Within these changing rules and expectations, I still think there is room to run a program that meets the spirit of BP's intent, even if it's not always possible to follow the prescribed methods. Still use the patrol method. Still separate the patrols as much is possible within the space confines. Do provide the required adult supervision, but that supervision needs to be in their own space, observing, and only intervening when needed for health and safety, or called upon by the youth leaders.
  2. This communication makes it seem like they've backed off eliminating programming for Adults 18-20. "Participants in Kindergarten through age 20."
  3. If they are getting rid of the 18-20 year old youth participant category, then what is a "Young Adult participant"? Aren't there just going to be youth and adults?
  4. Gross. At least we would solve the world's energy crisis by hooking up Dan Beard, William Hillcourt, Baden Powells graves to alternators.
  5. Welcome! Thanks for the clarification!
  6. Pension funds (defined benefit) are to some extent guaranteed by the Federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. If an employee is vested, they will likely get some benefits, but the PBGC DOES NOT have to pay what was promised to the employees. It typically is the full amount, but given all the craziness with COVID-19 and possible bankruptcies related to that, I can't say with certainty. Defined contribution plan, any employer matches that are vested are the employees to keep. Matches can be reduced or cut at any time. The future of the BSA is uncertain, and I'd never gamble my livelihood and future by hitching my wagon to an organization like that. It's on a list with a handful of other legacy companies that are circling the drain, that COVID or no COVID, I won't work for.
  7. You likely have some marketable skills. It's clear the BSA isn't looking out for you as an employee, and future decline is likely inevitable. You should make for the exits before everybody else gets the same idea. It's noble to "go down with the ship" but I like being able to pay my bills and retire someday.
  8. I just listened to his comments more fully. Starting around 52:15, he's talking about changes mostly in light of finances. To me that gives a bit more context about what sacred cows he's talking about. I hope it's more structural, operational than programmatic. The lack of specifics are concerning, but gathering the broader context of his remarks made me feel a bit better. Just gotta wait and see.
  9. This hits so close to home it hurts. Ownby describing things as "sacred cows" is kinda condescending. I don't like the phrase. One persons sacred cow is another person's core feature. Also, it's also kinda derogatory to Hindu's. There are better phrases to use, but that's neither here or there. For example, in the 70's, the leadership of the BSA decided in their wisdom that being outdoors and learning outdoor skills was a sacred cow that could be sacrificed for their new vision. Obviously many Scouters felt that they were cutting a core feature, and were ultimately proven right. Who knows what is on the chopping block yet. Maybe it's sub programs like OA, Venturing, NYLT, Wood Badge. Maybe it's program features like requirements, It almost certainly involves national or council properties and camps. Saying that people's support of those things is: A sacred cow: "an idea, custom, or institution held, especially unreasonably, to be above criticism (with reference to the Hindus' respect for the cow as a sacred animal). " Is starting out the conversation on a bad note. It mentally causes me to dig my heels in. I haven't managed to find the timestamp where he said that, so maybe his tone improved the message significantly, but I think it relates to @desertrat77s point. Given the BSA's track record throughout the years, I don't have any confidence in this "transformation" being anything but failure. This time, unlike the 70's, there isn't a William Hillcourt waiting on the bench to fix things.
  10. For those concerned about it. (Or maybe just me.) Dan Ownby talks about ending programming at 18. It's at the 56:54-57:02 mark. https://nam.scouting.org/?fbclid=IwAR2JR-yD5DMXRgJLrJ_nKOffFqtplXH01rKAjPx4GnwNTHd2hFyIeys7Y0s
  11. Isn't that effectively what college is becoming? Some would argue it's been that way for a while.
  12. I've got no problem with the FOS campaign. Like any other charities I support a value transparency in what my donation goes to. In my council, I feel good about what FOS is used for. With the bankruptcy, money collected for other purposes may go towards the settlement. It's a catch 22. I stop contributing, it hurts council programs today. I keep contributing, the money possibly goes to a settlement fund, and not the purposes I had intended.
  13. Seriously? $66? For what purpose, to be paid over during the settlement? I've been thinking about my FOS contributions. If the organization is going to go bankrupt and slimmed down, where will that money be going? The settlement fund?
  14. I don't think anybody said it had to do with girl troops any more than boy troops. Now I feel like you're trying to paint me and others here as unenlightened reactionaries, which I do not appreciate. I do appreciate the information you are providing from the meetings, and I am trying my absolute best to not shoot the messenger. @Eagledad @Eagle94-A1, @InquisitiveScouter and I have all told you of similar situations that we have personally experienced. Your inability to believe it has no bearing on whether it is true or not. Many of these Scout leaders you describe as "weak willed" are members here or members here served with those Scoutmasters, and that was an exceeding poor choice of words. I'm glad you have parents that are cooperative with your troops programs. "This is what the next generation of Scouters want." Since you aren't offering any actual data to support your claim, I suppose we could start an exceedingly flawed survey on this forum and find out what this subsection of Scouters want. If it was invite only, I could skew it to say whatever I'd want it to say. Especially if I don't need to publish my data, only the results. I've created organizational surveys as part of my job. Statistics/ statistical analysis is part of my professional career. But you are correct, this forum tends to be older, it's not a representative sample of what future parents would want. There's also a delicious level of irony here, because I can guarantee you, I'm younger than you. I am the next generation of Scouters, unless the BSA destroys what makes this program worth having youth participate in. There are small handful of other youth and young adult scouters here, and I have a pretty good guess what their opinions are.
  15. When those of us here on the forums gripe about Family Scouting, we aren't talking about girls, or families renting a campsite at camp outside of summer camp. We're talking about the BSA encouraging families to attend monthly troop outings. Most of us have seen it in our units, or others. It's normally a mess of helicopter parenting and demotivated youth. It breaks down the patrol method, and stifles team development and learning of self sufficiency. Nothing wrong with a parent coming along to volunteer or observe. I imagine the idea of having families camp at the summer camp while the program is going on is a total non-starter for most of us here. Scouts carpool to and from summer camp, so most of the families in my troop don't take their scouts to or from summer camp. This is a solution in search of a problem. As for the survey, maybe you got one, but almost nobody else on this forum did. Many of us have been longtime volunteers, involved in units, Districts and Councils for quite a long time. Many (although not me) have their kids in the program too. The data collection methods weren't really published, so it's impossible for us to know how valid the survey was, other than assurances from BSA national, and they haven't always conducted themselves with integrity or transparency.
  16. Agreed. Lets rip the bandaid off. We need to put these cases behind us for good, and protect the CO's from potential liability. I hope my council participates in the settlement. Ideally try to keep local camp properties if the council can afford them. I'd be sad to see us lose the HA bases, but they aren't the meat and potatoes like summer camp is. I share @MattRs concern. The program has always been about character building and citizenship development. Camping and outdoor fun is important because it (along with the patrol method) is how we accomplish these bigger goals. If Scouting becomes a purely camping club, particularly a family camping club, I have no need to participate. Even if I have kids, I could do cheaper, more robust, less restrictive outdoor activities with them than I can with the Scouts. No juggling other peoples calendars, no sending money to Irving.
  17. I suppose that makes sense. Although I think it will also hit NYLT pretty hard. Any idea when these changes will be communicated? The BSA already struggles to utilize and retain young adults in Scouting. I do not have any optimism that Councils will come up with roles suitable for these young adults, or use/treat them appropriately. More likely, this is a group of young adults we will lose, and I can only hope they'll return when they have their own kids. @Eagle94-A1 what do you think? After this rule change, given that these 18-20 year old's do not count as acceptable supervision for a Troop program, the only thing I can see them doing in the normal council is summer camp staff. My other concern and hopefully the details will be less alarming: "We will become intensively more outdoor in program emphasis. There will be complete emphasis on "outdoor fun" and a backing-away from "character building". The program since it's inception has always been about "character building." Outdoors skills, experiences and fun have always been a way we achieve that. Hopefully this will be more of thematic/marketing shift.
  18. Did they say why they are making this change? It's likely going to gut Venturing and the OA. These over 18-21 are already registered as adults and have taken YPT. I don't see what the issue is having them as they are currently.
  19. Interesting. What responsibility does a parent have for their own child if they send them someplace knowing that the coronavirus is out there and a danger? Can I sue the grocery store if I get coronavirus there? If I had kids, and I took them to the grocery store and they got sick, can I sue the store? (Assuming I can prove it?) At what point are we responsible for ourselves and our families? We all know the virus is out there, and it's a risk, and anybody who can promise 100% safety from it is a liar. If 100% safety from the virus is the standard, then nothing is opening until there is a vaccine. We aren't holding other activities or businesses to that standard. I can see if it's something negligent and someone gets harmed, like a structure collapse, or a fire, or even a food borne illness. That being said, it's just too early, and while we are in this early phase of the pandemic, Scout Camp is a luxury that just doesn't need to happen. Hopefully by next Summer, vaccine or not, we'll be able to have summer camps again.
  20. Would your lawyer friend sue if their kid got bronchitis or the flu from camp? If camp opened against health codes, or violated established codes, I could see a lawsuit. Otherwise, being able to sue people because I got an illness from them sounds ridiculous (although I am not a lawyer.) How would they prove the kid got COVID at camp and didn't have it asymptomatically before camp? Personally, I think camp and HA should be cancelled, but the liability piece is fascinating.
  21. Summer residence camps in Dan Beard Council (Cincinnati, Ohio) were cancelled. There will be some sort of day camp option announced in the next few weeks.
  22. Camp Friedlander in Cincinnati Ohio will be announcing their summer plans on Monday.
  23. Agreed. I'm not sure what @David CO's comment about primitive camping meant. I've taken a number of Scout crews backpacking, and there was no potable water or restrooms. It is primitive. We used hand sanitizer and biodegradable dish soap. For cub groups, given that they aren't backpacking, even in a primitive campground (no potable water), it'd be possible to use a handwashing station like @5thGenTexan's.
  24. I'm not sure what the issue is. For trailer type camping I love the set up @5thGenTexan posted. If it's backpacking, at least on my trips, everybody brings a small bottle of hand sanitizer. Use it before eating or after using the cat hole.
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