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Everything posted by Sentinel947

  1. I don't believe that 66% are intentionally lying. People's reporting of their own events are notoriously unreliable in a medical setting... "How'd you get this injury?" "How many alcoholic beverages do you drink in a typical week?" "Do you have thoughts about self-harm?" Much depends how the question is asked. "Have you been following the stay at home order?" Answer "Yes.". Reality: They have to go to the grocery store, they go outside for exercise and pass their neighbors doing the same. They visit with family members they do not live with, they visit with neighbors they don't live with... they go to public parks. (Especially in NYC.) Do all members of the household follow the stay at home order? What kind of activities outside the home do they get involved in? I see a lot of kids outside at the basketball court near me, while it's possible they are 10 siblings, I find that unlikely. Many people mean to be following the stay at home orders, but all the exceptions are opportunities to be infected or spread the infection. Now with states reopening businesses, the orders are even more confusing to follow. In my state, next week outdoor spaces for restaurants can reopen. Does the Governor want me to stay at my house or patronize these reopening restaurants? @yknot's point is well put. There is a variability to living conditions in various areas that makes following a stay at home order difficult. As a suburbanite, I have storage space for food, and a car to transport it that many in NYC may not have. I also don't have a spouse or kids, making my trips to the grocery store less frequent. If we're being totally honest with ourselves, very few people are completely and totally following the stay at home orders in their entirety. I know I've broken the stay at home order a few times. Most of it was for selfish social reasons. I did the best I could to minimize risk to myself and others, and I've won the gamble. Other people have not won their own gambles. Thankfully, nobody I know has been diagnosed or hospitalized. Stay at home orders are an attempt to deal with what could be an overwhelming health crisis. Only time will tell if it was an overreaction. There will be some case studies to look at how countries have handled this: Sweden vs their neighbors, Taiwan, Korea, China, Italy. At least in my state, the stay at home order has worked, even with mixed compliance. It bought the hospitals the time they needed to get their supplies in place. It gave cities in my state time to plan and create additional care facilities. Hopefully by the end of the month we'll have a decent amount of tests here. By the end of June, we'll know more if the re-openings are premature, or if the lock downs were unnecessary.
  2. People would never lie to their doctors/health providers about their compliance with medical advice/the law! Would they? 😄
  3. Not only that, but most campgrounds are reopening under the requirement that the groups are less than 10 people, and that all campers are from the same family/household.
  4. It has to be... how do you sell something if nobody knows it's for sale?
  5. Basically a fire sale.... Sold at any price. They must already have a prospective buyer lined up...
  6. Only if the wilderness areas and campgrounds open up. Many of them have been closed because of the mobs of people who were flooding into them with nothing else to do.
  7. Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available.
  8. I'm ok with considering a virtual troop meeting to be a troop meeting and requiring two adults, but I can also see how that logic could be extended to any time two Scouts are doing anything together virtually, and that would be absurd. As far for "fun dying." Group dynamics absolutely change when participants in the group change. I do not agree that 9/10 times if youth change their behavior around adults, that they were acting inappropriately. Youth have to adjust their communication styles around adults, and they will also be more wary of being contradicted or corrected by adults. Further, around their parents or authority figures, they don't want to say something that will embarrass them in front of that authority figure, which could be totally harmless around their peers. Also, many adults (including yours truly) cannot keep our mouths shut and opinions to ourselves. BP understood this, and that's why Scouts are supposed to have space away from adults, under our supervision, where they can grow, practice leading themselves and others, and be part of a team, without being railroaded by adults. Adults being present totally changes this dynamic, as the leader of the group is always and automatically the adult, despite our best intentions as adults.
  9. Yea, that's a tough call. Has some big impacts on a range of people. Probably in the next week or two they'll need to make that decision. @RememberSchiff had a great post, that I'm going to shamelessly turn into a Scoutmaster minute if I needed. This would not be the first time in the history of Scouting that there has been a disease outbreak that closed camps.
  10. I'll bite on this one. I'm making an assumption that you are referring to NYLT. I can't speak for other councils other than my own, and I'm definitely biased. I went to NYLT as a Scout, and have been on staff as an adult. This summer would be the third summer, but I doubt we're going to have any courses. The program isn't feasible with social distancing, even if we were allowed. As an assistant Scoutmaster, I've seen the effect of NYLT on my Scouts. As a fresh out of high school ASM, I used many of the skills I learned at NYLT to help my newer to Scouting scoutmaster team build a better vision for the patrol method and youth leadership in our Troop. NYLT was the first place as a Scout that I saw a functioning patrol method. It planted the seeds for me of what Scouting was supposed to be. My childhood troop had patrols, but we didn't really use them. We used them even less as the old guard of troop leaders from the 90's retired and the next generation took over. I'm going to mostly defend NYLT. Both NYLT and Wood Badge are not supposed to be outdoors skills courses. It's expected that Scouts or (adults) have already received those skills in their rank advancement or adult leader training. It's also expected that Scouts have been practicing positions of responsibility in their Troops, and that would likely include teaching other scouts how to make campfires. If a troop program is deficient in these areas, making NYLT a week of outdoors skills practice wouldn't likely fix it much anyways. Most Troops struggle with outdoor skills because they don't get outside enough, and they don't do activities that require them to use their skills, or they take the easy way out (line guy out clips, pop up tents, lighter fluid on campfires.) When I was in high school band, my director had a saying, "There is no boring music, just boring musicians." NYLT and Wood Badge are much the same way. If you have an unprepared and boring staff, then the course would be boring. If the staff is more interested in them having a good time, than the participants having a good time, then it will be a terrible experience. Look no further than Summer camp, which when done wrong can take swimming, shooting, and a week in the woods, and somehow make it boring and tedious. That's not to say the NYLT program couldn't use a rewrite. (I believe that is in the works.) It's mostly the same that it was over 10 years ago when I went as a participant. I'd love to see a little less corporate management type stuff, and a more about helping Scouts execute a better program back home. Like Wood Badge, I can't help if other Councils program sucks, or if their staffs are full of self-important types, but I do know that Scouting in my council and in my Troop would be significantly weaker without my council's NYLT program. In my council its well attended, and even Scouts that initially don't want to go typically enjoy it and recommend it to others. I've seen stalled out Scouts, bored of the advancement grind, become re- energized for Scouting because of NYLT, including myself when I was a youth. Some of the youth on my staff's found in NYLT a place where many core aspects of Scouting were truly practiced (Youth leadership, patrol method, outdoors, that wasn't in their own units. Even more, they finally felt like they were being challenged and allowed to meet those challenges without undue interference from adults. Even an activity totally unrelated to Scouting skills, like the marshmallow-spaghetti challenge, help teach and reinforce leadership concepts from the course. The course still includes usage of backpacking stoves, realistic first aid, lashing skills, pioneering projects and an overnight outpost. Using Scouting skills to help teach and reinforce leadership. I do wholeheartedly agree that leadership comes in a variety of forms, and it's not only the titled leader up front that matters. Being a good team member can often be its own subtle form of leadership. The world doesn't need (nor can it support) everybody being the stereotypical leader. It needs all sorts of players to make things work.
  11. Elitts, are you pointing to a specific BSA posting somewhere, or just the GTSS requirement of two adults at scouting events being applied to online settings?
  12. Good topic @Eagledad I think the aims and methods are mostly fine as they are. I agree adding leadership development is unnecessary, but here we are. In some ways the aims and methods are a marketing document as well as a statement of organizational goals. I liked @DuctTape's comment and I don't have a ton to add to it. The methods are how we achieve the aims. This creates a very simple litmus test for us. (And maybe I'm underthinking this.) "Does what we are about to do with this method accomplish our aims and how?" For example, creating online merit badge clinics, and packing them full of Scouts, and signing them all off for the badge.... Does that develop character, or leadership? Does it help develop good citizens? Does it improve their personal fitness? If the answer is no, or only kind of, then how can we change our course to be an emphatic yes? Whether or not we consider advancement to be a goal or a method, it should always be kept in context of our aims. "Does the way we are doing advancement help us achieve our aims?"
  13. There are plenty folks involved in this program who can't see the forest for the trees.
  14. Camps in my council are moving forward with planning. I'm still not optimistic they can or should open at all. They did extend the payment deadline till June 1st, and created a very generous refund/cancellation policy.
  15. My state currently has a 14 day quarantine for people traveling back to the state from elsewhere. That might be possible for out of state staff. Not really possible for out of state campers.
  16. I disagree, the PRC is absolutely fudging their numbers of infections and deaths.
  17. Discovering permethrin was great for me. I used to have multiple ticks during backpacking trips, now I'm unlucky if I find even one.
  18. Agreed about Bush II. He took it seriously. Obama had done some good work continue what Bush II had done. First place I'd point the finger at was the Chinese Communist Party. They have absolutely minimized their reporting, and probably falsified their numbers. They never let a good crisis go to waste. Notice nobody is talking about Hong Kong protests or the Uighers in concentration camps anymore. Western Countries and most citizens weren't taking the virus very seriously in January or early February. US Military intelligence knew there were issues in China in NOVEMBER... There doesn't seem to be much effort on the part of State or Federal officials or agencies to acquire PPE and supplies until the virus was already here. The Trump Administration acted like it couldn't come here, and when he wanted to take reasonable steps like stopping flights from China, the Democrats said no. There is still no national stay at home order, so states like mine (Ohio) are locking down, we aren't building much immunity, and we can't go out of lock down until other states follow our lead, otherwise a traveler is just going to bring it here and we'll restart the surge process. Many governors/mayors deserve blame too. They saw what was happening in Wuhan or Seoul and even when there were known cases in their cities and states, they didn't take action. In Italy and France, you had Prime Ministers telling the public to continue on with their lives. Many Mayors, include NYC's de Blasio, as late as March 11th, was telling people to go live their lives. Even know Trump is spending more time listening to his idiot talking heads on the TV and radio than medical professionals. I'll cut people some slack, for not being prepared back in December or January, because this is an unprecedented situation, but at the very least the Federal Government should have been better prepared, especially when Bush II's administration had created a plan, and US Army Intelligence had been sending warnings to Congress and the Executive branch since November. With a bit more planning, we could have had an outcome more like South Korea's. Instead, we've got a long way to go.
  19. This could be spun off into a delightful issues and politics thread. This virus has been a multi national failure of multiple governments and health agencies, trickling down to local leadership being unprepared or in denial.
  20. Agreed. We don't want to let everybody back out at once with no restrictions, We'll just have a no "peak infections" a few months from now. Look to China as an example. One, their infection and death rate is definitely higher than reported, and while some activities have resumed, they are still not doing mass events like sporting events.
  21. I went to NT about a decade or so ago. Used Altima boots and they held up fine. I don't remember my feet being wet to too big a deal. After we set up camp, everybody took off their wet socks and either got in the tent or sat around camp in dry socks and camp shoes.
  22. My local CVS clinic is still doing physicals. I think it's a bad idea, but they were open, I have HSA money to spend, and as an Assistant Course Director for NYLT, if I'm not available we are not having camp if it's even possible. I jumped on the opportunity to get my physical done and out of the way.
  23. Yea. It's easy for me to say that camp should be reopened when the health authorities say it safe to do so, but I'm not a parent. So my (non existent) kids don't have to live with the consequences. That being said, if the government allows childcare facilities/ schools to reopen and the restrictions that will still be in place allow for something like a camp, and the Council can pull off the logistics, I see no reason why not to have it. If we get to a reasonable time horizon before camp and it's clear it won't be safe, or the restrictions left in place won't make it manageable, it should be cancelled. I would hope council pros are in touch with health professionals and their local governments to make those decisions. Right now, at least in Ohio, if camp was next week, it'd be cancelled. We'll see what June holds.
  24. How can any reasonable individuals have ill will towards the council or camp if the virus situation means some weeks of camp has to be cancelled in June, but the council and health authorities deem it safe to proceed with later weeks in July? As long as they get a refund, it's a literal act of God. Given the logistical challenges of putting together a camp, training and hiring staff, I could see the whole summer cancelled rather than partial cancellations, but we'll see.
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