SeattlePioneer

Our DE suggested that making things fun for parents and adults was as necessary as making things fun for boys. He gave as an illustration having wine after a committee meeting. I tried that on one occasion and we had a wine tasting party after concluding a committee meeting at someone's home. That proved to be a fun activity, although I haven't repeated it. Along the same lines, I've held pack committee meetings at Starbucks for 2 1/2 years and always had reasonable attendance. You don't need to schedule the meeting, the place is always open and those who want to buy a treat for themselves can do so. Those that don't, don't. Seattle Pioneer

Frankly, I think Wood Badge is over hyped. Way too many Wood Badge promotions are done, and that doesn't even include beading ceremonies which are usually Wood Badge advertizements. We ought to be placing most of our attention on promoting regular training opportunities and courses. Wood Badge is fine supplemental training for those who want to spend the extra time and money on it. For a person who plans a long term "career" as a Scouter, it should encourage unit Scouters to participate more in district and council activities, which is good. And it sets a tradition of "working your ticket" for life, which is fine too.

I'm a platypus.

Hello BadenP, You describe the kind of things that concern me. Frankly, the tenor of the discussion on this thread leaves me worried about OA units lacking a sense of proposrtion and going overboard on things as your describe. One check on that is having parents freely able to observe what is going on and act to file complaints if they see things that worry them. Without that check being freely available, I think there's a real risk that things will get out of hand through poor judgment by adult leaders who don't know when to say Enough! All the talk about the importance of the Ordeal ceremony is just the kind of thing people who have lost a sense of proportion are likely to say. Ceremonies are important in Scouting, but NOTHING is more important than protecting boys from a Lord of the Flies kind of atmosphere, which can develope all too easily. Placing excessive importance on a ceremony is an indication that adult leaders have lost their sense of proportion, in my opinion.

Hello Eagle92, Thanks for posting the current guidance on this issue. Unfortunately, like increasing numbers of BSA literature, this is hypocritical. Calim that OA isn't secret and then refusing parents permission to observe the ceremony is going to create problems, I predict. Perhaps parents will just take advantage of the option they have and refuse to allow their son to participate. Frankly, with that as guidance I might be among the Scoutmasters who would simply take a pass on OA altogether. Rather too many of the comments I have read in this and similar threads suggests to me that OA is not a part of Scouting I am interested in participating in or supporting.

Hello Packsaddle, I suppose even the courts will draw the line at enforcing a relationship between a woman and her turkey baster, or whatever. Men are regularly levied for child support, but that doesn't apply to women who patronize sperm banks. If it did, the sperm banks would dry up. The right of women for access to sperm must not be infringed, apparently. Interesting the exceptions made by the law.

Personally I'm not big on coerced apoligies. I'd go back and talk to the Cubmaster and Den Leader about how a repetition of this is going to be prevented. If the facts are as clear as you say, suspending the offending kid for a month might be appropriate. In addition, requiring that a parent supervise the boy when he returns for another month or so might be appropriate.

> Maybe Kudu will comment on this. He might have an opinion.

I'm all in favor of backpacking and such ---- I've done about 3,000 miles of that total over a lot of trip I'd think. But I don't consider backpacking essential for Boy Scouts. Camping is essential --- it's where boys learn that actions have consequences and where Patrols have both form and essential functions. Very likely backpacking should be encouraged and done more than it is, especially in areas like mine where there are a LOT of great backpacking experiences available.

Unfortunately, what I see over and over again are OA leaders talking about, boasting about and promoting, their many varied methods of discouraging parents from attending Ordeal ceremonies. The idea appears to be to find the best and most sophisticated way to keep parents out of observing this ceremoney without actually producing complaints that would be hard to justify, extenuate or excuse. In my opinion, that's an irresponsible violation of BSA rules, no doubt intended to avoid exactly that kind of abuse, based on what is probably a long history of problems. So, to make things perfectly clear, I again suggest that ANY attempt to discourage parents from attending OA ceremonies is VERBOTTEN! No doubt there will yet again be people who don't agree with this, but frankly they are the people who should be removed from OA leadership, in my opinion.

When I took the Wood Badge course in 1985, one of the ways it affected me was by LIVING the patrol method for a week, in the role of a boy and boy leader. It wasn't just TALKING about the patrol method, it was living it, and experiencing what that meant emotionally. I imagine that youth leaders who used to attend NYLT in a Boy Scout specific model had similar, if not more profound experiences. Boys come from a variety of programs and patrols, some strong, many weak in a variety of ways. Being able to live the ideal program for a week and be able to see how it ought to and can function must have fired the imagination of those youth leaders in how they could improve their own program and unit. Jumbling various programs together seems like it would blunt the effect of that kind of experience. And not just for Boy Scouts either. I'm not experienced in how Venturing is supposed to work, but it's equally possible that by mixing in Venturers with Boy Scouts, the unique features of Venturing aren't being experienced and taught either, leading not just to a weaker Boy Scout program but a weaker Venturing program too.

We have a new form of "marriage" these days. It's marriage for life and it's not voluntary. Gays will contibnue to be excluded from this new marriage. It's marriage based of child custody and child support laws. Every time a child is born a new marriage is created. It's a marriage enforced by the courts and it's one only one party needs to say "I do," by invoking the courts to force the other parent to do something. You can't get divorced from this marriage, you are stuck with it for 18-21 years, if not for life. It may well be that as Social Security and Medicare collapse in the decades to come, courts will decide that paqrties to this marriage owe each other more than child support, and start issuing orders to support an indigent "spouse" when they can't work. Gays will continue to be excluded from this kind of marriage by and large, since absent adoption that wont be anteing up by having children.

Patrols are the cornerstone of Boy Scouts. I don't think you can leave boys out. No reason why patrols can't decide who their members will be, though. Perhaps you need a Hot Dog and a Sloth Patrol. I imagine the attrition among the sloths would tend to be high, though.

You will notice that we offer Cubmaster SPECIFIC training, Scoutmaster SPECIFIC training and so on for adult leaders. But then we don't do that for youth leaders? Is that because the council finds it convenient to have a one size fits all program?

Hello Paul, Congratulations on your achievements and thank you for your service. I hope your troop and district make you welcome and find some ways to put your skills and experience to work and on display for Scouts and Scouters. Can you tell us something about your Scouting history and how that may have impacted the decisions you have made? I just recently read a book that detailed the experiences of the USMA Class of 1962 (I think it was) --- a very grim and grinding war time experience for many. The long wars we have been involved in recently sound like they have placed extraordinary demands on many in the military. I hope you have been able to maintain an even strain when confronted by the many challenges you have no doubt confronted.

Last Monday our Bear den had training for the Tote 'n Chip then boys did work on carving a bear out of a bar of soap. We pretty much had men, mostly dads, supervising and helping with the training. I thought that was fine and we avoided any BLOOD! Generally we don't have parental hovering, unless there's a reason. Then parents turn out pretty much on their own initiative. As far as I can see, that's working well so far. I can certainly see how hovering parents would be a problem, but I don't think that's a problem we have. Lucky, lucky!

Unfortunately, willful OA leaders just don't get it, so it needs to be stated in the baldest terms: ANY effort to discourage parents from attending is VERBOTTEN! Frankly, anyone who can't understand that simple concept should be replaced as an OA leader in my opinion.

Resfusing to sign on an Eagle project is a rarther tardy way of dealing with character issues that have manifested themselves throughout a Scout's tenure. But the same people with those kinds of issues tend to have their way of skating through various requirements. Personally, I don't really have an issue with refusing to sign off on such requirements. Scouts can appeal to the council advancement committee and from there to national if they are denied. Maybe they should have to go through that process.

Reverance? I draw thwe line at a Scout who gets up and announces in a loud voice that "There is no God." "I'm an atheist" and such. I had a young Cub Scout do that a year or so ago. That I do discourage. Generally speaking, my standard religion in Scouting is: 1) We encourage Scouts to respect the religious traditions of their families 2) We encourage Scouts to respect the religious traditions of other people. For Boy Scouts and older, I'm flexible on #1 if they have religious ideas they have developed themselves.

> Please post that video on U-Tube! Now I'm wondering how long it will be before we're required to carry such stuff on Scout outings and make regular reports that everything is A-OK. Failure to report A-OK will no doubt result in a helecopter assault on wilderness areas by rescue agencies, if not helecopter parents.

After having heard the comments made about NYLT and Wood Badge recently on this thread I have one comment: Ugh! BLEECH! It sounds to me like the effort to have a one-size-fits all program is going to confuse things ---- a lot, especially for Boy Scouts who need to understand how to make their Patrol program work. It needs to be Junior Leader Training for Boy Scouts. If that doesn't work for Venturers or whoever, tough. And if Wood Badge isn't about adults learning to understand how the Patrol Method works by living the Patrol Method, then a pox on it too, although that's less serious than not giving Boy Scouts the training they need. Finally, as far as all the bead counting goes---- I'm all in favor of adult recognition. But the bead counting going on in this thread seems VERY over the top to me. Seattle Pioneer(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

The problem with Cub Scouts is not that it's too long but that the Wolf, Bear and Webelos programs involve too much schooling and too little fun, in my experience and judgment. That's especially true with the current emphasis on completing advancement requirements during den meetings. The Tiger Cub program is a lot more FUN and places emphasis on specific Go-See-It outings that boys enjoy. And completing badge requirements is fairly easy. In my judgment, the Wolf, Bear and Webelos programs should be recast more like the Tiger Cub program. I'm starting a Webelos program next school year, and my aim is to make that a camping oriented program if I can. That would begin the transition to Boy Scouts that I agree is often done poorly. And getting the Bear Den Leader to adopt that transition is something that I'm struggling with now. But the problem isn't that the program is too long --- the problem is that it isn't designed properly in my view. It should be the Webelos program that is the transition between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. If the Webelos program is camping oriented, boys usually stay. If it's Cub Scout oriented, they often drop out. My aim is also to have the Webelos den doing joint outings with Scout Troops when Troops are doing suitable trips and outings. Both parents and Cub Scouts should start to understand Boy Scouts from that experience. In my view Cub Scout should NEVER be an arts and crafts program. Arts and crafts can be a means to an end. Decorating Pinewood Derby Cars ---- good craft activity, but RACING THE CARS is the main activity. I'll be doing a rocket launch as a recruiting night activity next Monday. Boys will be encouraged to decorate their rockets as they build them, but the main activity will be LAUNCHING THE ROCKETS 15-25 times that evening or whatever. We'll have six rocket launchers going at once to make that happen. I dropped out of Cub Scouts after a few weeks of arts and crafts activities led by Den Mothers circa 1958. One of my aims as a Cubmaster is not to repeat that mistake for Cub Scouts in my pack. It doesn't have to be that way and shouldn't be that way in my opinion. I was also a young Scoutmaster circa 1981-1987, which gives me the advantage of knowing where Cub Scouts ought to be going.

Last month my council announced manadatory training for the unit leader this year. (Cubmaster, Scoutmaster and such) This month they announced manadatory Wilderness First Aid training on any outing more than an hour from a hospital ER (that's 16 hours training good for two years) MINIMUM $50 cost to be paid by the unit or the individual. I can hardly wait to find out what they have in mind for next month. Frankly, I'm all in favor of training, but not selling mandatory training to volunteers.

Tiger Cubs is the best program in Scouting in my view and experience. Wolf and Bear programs should be taking a page from the Tiger Cub Emphasis on outings and fun skills to learn. Webelos could be another real winner but it requires a significant transwition to a camping oriented program which can be difficult to do. If it's not done, boys drop out. If it is done, parents may drop out unless they understand and support the program.

Based on the original news report, I wonder why someone rang the alarm bell. There is really no reason to suppose this group was distressed in any significant way or in need of rescue. It's not unusual for a hiking, backpacking or climbing group to be delayed by circumstances, and often delay is the wise course of action and trying to avoid delay the reckless action. I suppose public authorities have little choice but to regard an overdue party as an emergency, but it strikes me as overdone and perhaps sad.