SeattlePioneer

1945. Harry Truman. "The Buck Stops Here" 2011. Barack Obama "The Birth Certificate Stops Here"

Politics is a wide variety of things ---- amusement for one. I think it's fun that Trump motivated Obama to cut loose with his birth certificate. What's next on Trump's agenda? Seattle Pioneer

> Can I choose from among Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Venturing and Sea Scout commerbunds? Any special discount for buying them all?

Does anyone think that pinched family finances will make Scouting MORE attractive? I'm thinking that might be the case especially for Cub Scout Packs that emphasize fun and inexpensive activities that can include the whole family. Are there ways we can market our units to be more attractive in times that are fiscally difficult for families?

Sorry Old_OX_Eagle83, Your formula to discourage parents is contrary to the BSA no secrecy policy in my opinion. Many of the things you suggest are reasonable, but they are mostly polite behavior, not a calculated effort to discourage parents from attending. Things like: > are violations of the rules, in my opinion. Parents should NOT be discouraged from attending! If I heard about this kind of conduct I'd be taking it up with district or council officers.

Hello Baden P, Have to diagree with you there. Check out my description of our PWD this year. Boys and parents came in on a Saturday and got their PWD kit still in the box. Adults brought in a variety of woodworking tools which were shared by all. Boys did most of the work, with adults helping out occasionally when that seemed like a good idea. But the norm you saw when watching the work being done was that boys did most of the sawing, sanding, painting and such. The races weren't high stakes for a trophy. Instead, boys either decided who they wanted to race against or just slapped their car on the first available track and raced against whoever was on the other tracks. The winner of each heat got a sticker for their PWD Driver's License certificate. It worked even better than I hoped. At out parents meeting Monday the PWD got rave reviews from parents who were happy with it and didn't miss the formal racing. My theory was that mostly boys wanted to race as many times as possible and have a chance to get some small amount of recognition for winning. The least number of stickers won that I saw was six, and a number of boys had twenty plus, and those were while the racing was still going on. We never determined which Cub Scouts had the most stickers. They had to figure that out for themselves. I think it had the right amount of competition for young Cub Scouts. We don't have any Webelos --- possibly they would like somewhat more formal competition. Those who want sharper competition can do the district PWD race April 30th.

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Any day now I'm expecting a Federally mandated "No Child Left Behind Without a Cell Phone" program....

Wow! What an excerllent bunch of comments so far! I think I agree with almost all of 'em.... > Unfortunately, this is all too true. If boys set the pace themselves and learn the skills, it usually takes 2-3 years ---even more, to earn First Class. Just as Eagle Mill Troops have adults parse Eagle requirements so they can be completed at max speed, the same thing tends to be done at summer camp with the Trail to First Class, this time at the suggestion of BSA which encourages achieving First Class in a year. Compare the testing on a typical "Trail to First Class" program with testing for the swimming requirment. The swimming requirements take a measure of real competence to complete, and it may take a non swimmer months or even years to be able to complete those requirements. But they typically are not "watered down" so a non swimmer can complete them in a week. Personally I'd favor a Trail to First Class program that focuses on really learning skills. Knot tieing that focussed on learning a couple of knots really well, rather than six knots and all the lashings not really being learned at all. The problem with this is that you come up against the expectations of ADULTS --- perhaps including yourself! Your Camp Director may expect and even advertize that Scouts will complete the Trail to First Class in a week, Troop leaders may expect that and may not plan much of Trail To First Class instruction in their troop program, expecting summer camp to do 100% of the task for them. It sets someone like you up with difficult choices to make. I will be interested to hear how you decide to appraoch this issue.

What impact is $4/gallon gasoline having on Scout programs as you observe them and what is the likely impact of $6/gallon fuel prices should those occur this summer?

> Unfortunately Beavah, you seem to be the best example of this phenomena, since you persist in pretty much the same line of argument throughout this lengthy thread, including repeatedly describing those who disagree with you as being motivated by prejudice.

I know our council has a varity of thank you gifts for large dollar FOS gifts --- I think I heard our DE say this included tokens of some kind. I wonder if some councils might buy stuff like this for that kind of purpose?

I guess this Scouting stuff really works. People here seem to be really buying into this "A Scout is Thrifty" business.

> Hello Beavah, Once again you fall into the trap of stigmatizing "discrimination" as being something morally wrong. The idea attracts you like an ant attracted to honey. I again remind you that the fundamental liberty is the freedeom of association which allows people and institutions to decide who will be permitted to join. Those who set up voluntary organizations have wide freedom to set the terms of membership. There are a lot of good reasons why that funadamental liberty is important. I earlier compared that to freedom of speech, another fundamental liberty. But there are a few limitations of freedom of speech, such as not shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater. But you don't use those few limitations to launch a general attack on the funadamental liberty. You don't say, well, you can't shout "fire" in a crowdeed theater," therefore it's morally wrong to do any kind of shouting in a theater, crowded or not. That's what you keep doing over and over again. You want to require BSA to justify it's age restriction, which it has NO obligation to do. Blacksmith finds it tedious for me to point out that there is no downward point at which your argument against age restrictions would naturally stop. I've pointed out how the "Wild in the Streets" movie dramtizes that point. The simple fact is that BSA doen't NEED to justify it's policy. It has the authority to adopt such a policy as part of the fundamental right of freedom of association. You can ALWAYS ridicule an age restriction or limitation by pointing out that a restricting someone from doing something one day when it's permitted the next day is arbitrary. Yet age restrictions are ubiquitous in society and government. There are rational reasons why BSA has a wide variety of age tests in it's programs. We have discussed several possible reasons why such tests may be there in this thread. You may decide the reasons aren't good enough for your taste, but your taste isn't the issue. BSA is entitled to decide the issue for whatever reasons seem appropriate to them. They don't even owe you an explanation of their reasons and purposes.

> I suspect that the primary reason why Scouts drop out is that they have completed the journey that attracted them to Boy Scouts in the first place: usually a desire to learn to be competent hikers and campers --- the Trail to First Class. Youth who stay longer either have more hiking and camping experiences they want to do, want to experience the greater challenges of more sophisticated and adventurous outings, or they adopt new goals and challenges they wish to pursue. It is the last group I suspect that might be attracted to the idea of becoming Scoutmaster or other adult leadership positions. A few Scouts of this stripe are probably the ones who participate in Order of the Arrow on a significant scale, as an example. And of course were BSA to decide to reduce the age for adult positions, I would be glad to support those new leaders. Indeed, I've considered looking for ways to encourage youth leaders to assist with various district activities such as membership recruiting and Cub Scout day camp. I'm promoting the idea of having packs and troops take ownership of a Cub Scout Day Camp activity --- nature study, wood working, cooking or some similar thing, and presenting that activity each year at day camp. Boy Scouts could participate on the day camp committee, decide on a program and then staff it with youth leaders and adults as needed. ( Great way to showcase a troop program for boys who will be looking for a troop to join, too). Troops in my district organize the district Pinewood Derby and a Webeloree, too. These tend to have adults taking a primary leadership role in organizing the event, but there is no reason youth leaders couldn't take on that role if they wished to do so. However, I don't see much of a grass roots demand for more such opportunities by youth leaders. If the opportunity were created more might take it, but I see nothing like Blacksmith's initiative in proposing to be district Popcorn Kernel. That is a rare initiative by a youth leader.

Hello Blacksmith, > I thought you wanted to GET RID of age limits! Why keep the age 18 limit for Scouts? Isn't that just as arbitrary as an age limit of 21? As a matter of fact, adult leaders were eligible to earn the Eagle award at one time. And of course Venturing allows youth members to age 21. Suppose Scouting raised the age of leaving Scouting to 21 and kept the restriction on adult leaders at 21. Would that make you happy by keeping those other positions open for youth leaders? I don't think so!

> Hello Beavah, You keep returning to this bias over and over again, but you are unable to answer the logical problem this bias creates. For the third or fourth time, no one is going to say that someone magically becomes competent to fill a position on their birthday but is objectively incompetent the day before. But that's true on someone's 18th birthday and their 16th birthday and 14th birthday too. Your argument can't escape the conclusion that every age based restriction should be abolished for the same reason. A 14 year old Scoutmaster? Leave the issue open for the committee to decide ---- perhaps a committee of other 14 year olds? This reprises the 1960s film "Wild In The Street" which proposed to examine how this kind of argument would lead to a fourteen year old voting age and a 25 year old President of the United States: In the end, younger children yet bitterly resented that they weren't eligible to vote, using the same line of argument. It may be that BSA will decide to reduce the adult leadership age, and if they choose to do so I wont object. Neither do I find your "discrimination" and "prejudice" arguments persuasive at all. Freedom of association is the fundamental liberty at issue here. Freedom of speech is another fundamental liberty, but despite that you aren't permitted to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. But the fact that there are a few limitations on a fundamental right doesn't allow you to tear down the fundamental right based on a few exceptions. Neither should we be influenced to abandon our freedom of association based on waving the red shirt of hot button language like "discrimination" and "prejudice," which even you concede doesn't limit BSA's discretion on this issue. BSA has the privilege and responsibility to define membership requirements. "Discrimination" is the essence of the freedom of association, a fundamental right. It is the JOB of private organization to set standards for membership ---- to discriminate. We have stigmatized discrimination in this country, but it remains one of the most vital and important characteristics of all private organizations. Of the enormous variety of ways private organizations discriminate every day, only a very few have been recognized as exceptions which cannot lawfully be enforced, just as there are only a handful of restrictions on freedom of speech. I have no objection to BSA deciding that they CHOOSE to lower the minimum age. I have every objection to your contention that they have some moral obligation to do so. They don't, and they need to resist any claim that they do.

Oak Tree has what looks like a good list of responsibilities. However, as you can see, there is no place to train unit leaders in how to design a business model that maximizes the ability and motivation of units and Scouts to sell. They are left to figure that out for themselves. Of course, the council structures some of that into their program. Our council does a "popcorn kickoff" which is a rah, rah! effort to juice up unit popcorn Kernels, but that doesn't get into the nuts and bolts of structuring the incentives at the unit level. That's what I want to do at our August Roundtable. We haven't had a district Popcorn Kernel the past couple of years --- the DE has had to do that task lacking a volunteer. My aim will be to provide that additional training and ideas at the Roundtable which I hope will help units improve how they structure their sales and incentives.

Hello BadenP, Council boards ought to be the check on the kind of abuse you describe. Do you think such oversight is weak, and if so what can be done about it?

That shoe fits on the other foor just as easily. You have been waving charges of prejudice and discrimination around self righteously on this thread as a way of selling your ideas and to beat up on those who disagree with you. I used your own ideas to suggest that the age for adult leaders should be reduced to age 16 based on the logic of your arguments, and you couldn't disagree. How about 14? I think we can all agree that there isn't a difference in the ability of someone's ability to be a Scoutmaster that magically changes on the day of their 21st birthday. It might be that there are sufficient reasons for reducing that age limit. In the end, someone is going to make a judgment about what that should be, and it will always be subject to attack that it is arbitrary and unreasonable, and could just as well be a day, week or month earlier. Leadership means having the COURAGE to make needed decisions in such situations. Frankly Beavah, I think you are in the throes of an intellectual cunundrum from which you can't escape. Waving around charges of prejudice and discrimination is absurd in this kind of issue. You want to compare it to race and sex discrimination to add some legitimacy to your argument, but it isn't race discrimination. > That may be true, Beavah, although I did a lot better taking college Calculus at age 40 than trig when I was in High School. But the knowledge and experience of a 49 year old has accumulated will usually make that person FAR more competent at a skilled task than someone completing entry level requirements for a trade or profession at age 18. That's why the 49 year old is going to be the teachwer and the 18 year old the student almost always. There are exceptions, such as athletes where young people may hopelessly outclass older people. > Personally I think restrictions on discriminating against those 40+ are unreasonable and should be eliminated. If you can't cut the mustard, tough. > Again you confuse the issue by trying to bring in legal issues. People and institutions are FREE to discriminate based on age in all cases but a very few, and this aint one of them. Not only FREE to make such decisions, but they are among our precious liberties. Freedom of association is one of our precious liberties, and only COMPELLING situations should permit government to intrude upon those liberties. Instead, you want to argue that because a tiny handful of intrusions upon fredom of association are illegal, all such freedoms are properly suspect. That is just plain wrong in my view. We have a responsibility to use such liberties wisely, and discussing whether they are being used wisely is a discussion worth having. But we still have the privilege and responsibility to decide --- or at least BSA does.

I used to do lots of backpacking and would spend nights comfotably on an insulated pad with my bootsw as a pillow. When I returned to Scouting at age 54 I was AMAZED at the changes in camping since my backpacking days! I would have thought that environmentalists would have been UP AT ARMS with how much HARDER the ground had gotten in a few short years! For some reason it's a lot harder to stand up when you roll out of the sleeping bag, too. What's that anyway? A sudden increase in the force of gravity? You never hear scientists reporting on these issues... These days when car camping I sleep on a camp cot, at age 61.

Kudu's recent success with the Eagle Mill troop illustrates why I don't condemn such programs too harshly. They may be all a certain group of parents can do or understand. And they can be taken over and converted into a better Scouting program when the right leadership comes along. Personally I consider that adequate justification for such programs. I've already described that in 2004 I volunteered with a Scout troop that had been to summer camp but had done no other camping by November, when several boys who'd crossed over from Cub Scouts left for a troop that did more camping. The Scoutmaster was a nice guy, but simply wasn't a leader who could plan things. I was new to the troop, but the departure of those Scouts caused me to realize what was happening and the Scoutmaster was happy to have me start organizing monthly camping trips. That kicked off a history of a pretty good outdoor program. Boy Scout training (and the Boy Scout Journey to Excellence and such) provides a clear emphasis on a good outdoor program. If a troop isn't doing that, in most cases an outdoor program can be started up as soon as someone has the gumption to get it started.

Scouts get two awards for their rank advancement in our pack. They get awarded the cloth badge at the next den or pack meeting after I'm notified they have completed requirements. At the next pack meeting, we also have a more formal award ceremony that includes awarding a nice color certificate in a plastic sheet protector which Scouts are encouraged to add to their Cub Scout scrapbook. The certificates are on display before the pack meeting for Scouts and parents to see and to "encourage the others" who haven't completed the reuqirements yet. I'm a fan of certificates. If you Google "Cub Scout certificates you can find several websites that allow nice certificates to be made up inexpensively. Encouraging Cub Scout scrapbooks gives boys a place to collect Cub Scout memorabilia which adds to the value of Cub Scout stuff.

Hello TwoCub, Re: Cub Scout Uniforms If I ever got my lip back in shape, I'd wear a Boy Scout uniform on a "mission." There is a discussion board as part of that website. You could ask that question there to get more opinions.

> I seem to recall one pitchman who gave Cub Scouts treats if they could recall facts from his FOS presentation. Of course that might have kept some adults awake trying to remember as well. Since I do a lot of school recruiting, asking who got a FOS funded sticker when they were invited to join Cub Scouts would find quite a few Cub Scouts eagerly remembering that occasion. Wait a minute --- I'm making notes....