SeattlePioneer

Recent comments describe the reality of detailed Youth Protection rules: they are incompatible with the way a lot of families are these days. Enforcing them with the casual family associations common these days is impracticle and would probably cause numerous families in some units to quit and perhaps cause a number of units to fail. So the BSA has it's nice, shiny rules that make for good press releases, and has all volunteers signed off to enforce them. But they often aren't practical to enforce, so they will then be ignored as unreasonable. When something goes wrong, the council will piously point a finger at volunteers who were trained to enforce the rules but didn't. Willfully failing to enforce the rules you have been trained in might be a good reason to leave volunteers liable for damages on their own hook for any problems that develop. It's a great system.

I think BadenP and Eamonn have proved it conclusively: Districts are different. Councils are different. Situations are different. It requires good judgment (which can be in short supply) to make smart decisions about how to use the resources available. This is the kind of things Scouts discover when they become Patrol Leaders for the first time, and it's true for District Executives, Council Executives and Chief Scout Executives too, I suppose. My DE had a several years experience as a youth and young adult helping manage Scout camps and camp program before he became DE. Using him as a Camp Director has been an excellent idea. Eamonn's DE had no such experience --- and making her a camp director would have been starting a steep learning curve at a low point. She might have no special aptitutde for program at all, despite doing an excellent nuts and bolts job as DE. Still, if the chips are down for some reason you might have to turn to someone with no experience to do a job as best they can. Sometimes "doing your best" isn't an especially high standard.

You can try to rationalize your condescending name calling all you wish. It remains condescending name calling and it's grossly offensive when you use it to characterize Scouts. I hope that helps.

Well, we had our simpler, kinder, gentler Pinewood Derby yesterday, and it was a GREAT activity:

Hello Moose, Heh, heh! I wasn't intending to turn that post into a FOS solicitation directed at Basement Dweller! Does someone call Basement to ask him to set up a FOS solicitation for his unit? I don't recall him saying who that would be. Most DEs would make that call if they did nothing else for a unit that year. If I were on the receiving end of that call, I might say, "Well, you know we've had some great experiences with the Baden Powell District this past year --- GREAT TRAININGS, FINE district PWD and friendly Roundtables. So we've decided to do our own FOS solicitation and contribute that through a Baden Powell District unit by way of saying THANKS! I take it you'd have no objection to that---- it all goes in the same pot in the end, right?" I think I could take a little innocent pleasure with that approach...

Sorry Scoutfish, I disagree. Having a quiet word with the offending party would be reasonable, but what you are suggesting would be an over the top reaction more likely to cause trouble than get co operation. You want to call the cops? Help yourself. Let them deal with it. Make an announcement at the Pack meeting that it's important to have the disabled parking space kept clear for those who need it --- fine. Organize a skit to illustrate why that's important? ---- fine. But getting in someone's face when you are emotionally involved AS YOU ARE is probably not a good idea in my opinion ---- and experience.

New boys in my troop are given a "Bobcat Trophy," which is just a block of wood. Boys are encouraged to sand, finish and decorate it in any way they wish, and to drill eight holes in it that birthday candles will fit in. When they complete the Bobcat requirements, they bring their Bobcat Trophy in and light their candles to remember the requirements they completed. Some boys do nothing, some make quite a project out of it --- I had one Scout turn his into a Pinewood Derby car with wheels! You could do something similar, giving boys a "Tiger Cub Trophy" to work on. Boys could be supervised drilling five holes in it for candles if you wish. Generally speaking boys LOVE lighting matches and starting fires! I have parents supervise their boy with the candle lighting and douse the room lights. It works quite well!

It's a shame Basement can't get a square deal let alone help and support from his district. Around here, districts can be fairly close geographically. If I were having problems like that I think I'd "adopt" another district that had a good program and support THEM rather than my own district. Attend THEIR Roundtable. Participate in and help organize THEIR events. Attend THEIR trainings. Contribute to THEIR FOS quotas (heh, heh! that might get attention!). I pretty regularly look through the websites for the twelve districts in my council, looking for good ideas and activities. It might be possible to encourage other units disappointed with the district to do the same thing until the DE and/or council leadership gets the message.

Hello Desert Rat,

> Does OA need to be reformulated? If so, how?

I'm guessing that there would be no objection to setting up your own speeches if you include a FOS solicitation....

Every Boy Scout leader training program I've ever heard of emphasizes the importance of an active outdoor program. There are parents who scheme, carry or drag their child to Eagle. Despite reasonable efforts, there is probably a practical limit to what you can do about that. In any case, I consider Eagle to be overrated as a goal. Boys are turned into Scouts on the trail to First Class in a good troop. There is nothing that prevents a quality Scout Troop from offering a quality program to youth, and everything encourages troops to offer a quality program. No doubt some programs have been designed by adults to get their offspring to Eagle as rapidly and painlessly as possible. Others may lack the leadership needed to offer a quality program. Most Scout programs that endure cycle between varying levels of quality over time. The quality program can become an Eagle mill and cycle back to a quality program over time. Personally I consider it silly for some people to be pea green with and ger and envy because some kid gets an Eagle award for minimal effort. There is nothing that prevents people from offering a quality program, and that's the real bottom line.

Comes now Kudu with a repetition of his usual namecalling and rant. > While Kudu does just the reverse. Personally I think it makes sense that if you are going to do Patrol Leader Training or Senior Patrol Leader Training the emphasis would typically be on the leadership training, not the Scout Skills that should already have been developed. I would suppose that using those leadership skills to show how to motivate Scouts how to learn and perfect Scout skills would be a commonly used method to teach junior leaders. If those junior leaders don't have a reasonable command of those Scout skills, then they may need to be reviewed before the leadership training is done. If that's the case, then those doing the training have an opportunity to demonstrate how teaching and leadership skills go together when leading a Boy Scout program. Overemphasis on either Scout skills OR leadership skills will lead to an unbalanced Boy Scout program. A certain balance is needed to insure that new boys are trained and that boy leaders can justify their leadership position by their competence in Scout skills and their ability to train and motivate other Scouts. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> Actually, I think there ought to be more packs working together to share quality activities and program. I'd especially like to see strong packs pairing up to help weak packs. Too often weak units are just left to themselves to wither on the vine.

> Ummmm. I wonder how THAT happened!

Hello Basement Dweller, Don't you EVER get a break? Tough district to work with. Tough Council to work with. Tough unit to work with. Tough families to work with. You have my sympathies.

I'd like to thank Basement Dweller for all the things he does for Scouting, and the money of his own that he spends as well. Of course I can't answer for how wisely or foolishly his council is spending their funds. I hope they are doing their best and making wise decisions, but perhaps not. I certainly wouldn't ask him to pay a penny more than he is happy to do, and if that's $0.00, I'd say he has already done nobly. Finally, I'm sure I'm lucky to have a highly effective district and council. If I had a district and council that wasted money and cared little about the Scouts and volunteers, I might well be among those who were very unhappy with FOS solicitations. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Sounds ambitious! I remember once trying to construct a bed from poles, lashings and ropes. I discovered the limitations on my design and construction skills. Good luck and I'd be glad if you kept us posted!

Hello Desertrat, Thanks for giving a brief presentation on your alternative way of raising FOS dollars. In our district, Boeing's contributions on behalf of employees is significant, and in other districts similar programs by Microsoft or other big businesses can be important to district FOS campaigns. But your districts idea of dispensing with unit solicitations in favor of shaking other money trees is both interesting and courageous. I've sent your remarks on to our District Executive as something he may want to consider. Our district hasn't had a FOS chair the past couple of years and the DE of course has had to fill in by doing that task. It might be interesting to see if we could find a volunteer to lead just an effort to solicit businesses and other community organizations and use that to see what we can do and how we can improve and expand our methods of FOS fund raising. Thank you for passing on a terrific and inspirational idea for improving FOS campaigns!

Hello Beavah, As I noted earlier, a consensus view that someone needs to go is certainly to be desired if it has to be done. But that could be just as well an informal decision making process with the CC hearing complaints from parents and leaders and making their own inquiries. It COULD be a formal process with a hearing before a meeting of the committee and a vote making a recommendation. But that's not necessary. It might be desireable to give an offending person a hearing, or it might not. In some cases, perhaps quite a few, a CC might wish to sit down with the offending person and talk to them one on one, or perhaps with another committee member as well, and talk informally about problems and issues. If someone is suspended from their position, it might be kind to spare them a committee meeting where all the complaints are aired. Deciding how to proceed requires good judgment on the part of the CC. That's my assessment, anyway.

> Hello desertrat, Hmmmm. As far as I know, the main target for FOS dollars in my district are fromfamilies of Scouts. We did get a major assist when Boeing made contribution on behalf of its employees based on hours of work contributed, and a number of other businesses match contributions by employees. Our council organizes FOS breakfasts and such using celebrities to help attract contributors. But yours is the first district I've heard of that dispenses with unit family solicitations altogether. Is that true of all the districts in your council? What methods do you use on a district level to attract this financial support?

After you talk your Scouts into kilts, what methods do you have to coax them into mini skirts and white knee high boots?(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> I suppose each Scoutmaster would have their own ideas, but personally I'd favor a place to hang my uniforms, a desk, bookshelf for Scout books, file for paperwork, a comfortable office chair, a nice light and a soft bed. Oh. And a mugholder. Wow, it's really thoughtful of you to ask!

Hello Beavah, > I agree that's how things ought to work. > That's not my understanding of how the actual power relationship works. A CC has a good deal of authority if they are doing their job. They can call committee meetings, set the agenda, decide who is recognized and who to invite to attend. A CC who wants to replace a Scoutmaster or Cubmaster can sign an adult leader application to appoint a new person and recommend that the Chartered Organization Rep sign it. That's all it takes to replace someone. And a good many Committee Chair are also the COR, and they can decide on their own initiative when to replace someone and with who. Of course acting arbitrarily, without good reason and without the support of other unit leaders, parents and IH is not something to be done lightly. But that's the way it's done as I understand it. One point I'm vague about. Suppose a CC & COR have an adult leader they wish to fire, but don't have someone to replace them immedietely. Exactly how would those two worthies suspend or remove such a leader?

> So as a Cubmaster when I recruit new families who attend Scout events that would qualify? When I register new adult leaders as Pack leaders, that qualifies? When I do a FOS presentation and people donate --- that qualifies? In short, is there any bar to unit leaders and volunteers meeting these requirements in ther ordinary course of their volunteers activities?