SeattlePioneer

Hello Oak Tree, Beavah has claimed that age restrictions are a matter of arbitrary "prejudice," which I don't think is the case. Scouting makes lots of judgments about issues of all kinds, some of which might be backed up by evidence that might convince an academic and others may not. But keeping academics happy isn't the purpose or method of Scouting. That's true for a lot of age restrictions. Obviously there's little objective difference between someone taking a drink of alcohol the day before their 21st birthday and the day they are 21, but one is legal and the other isn't. After reading through this discussion, I can see arguments both for keeping the age restriction for adult leaders where it is OR reducing it to something less than 21. It's a judgment call. And there's probably a lot more documentary evidence that could be assembled to lead to a wise decision than the highly limited amount we've had here. One issue I'm particularly interested in is finding ways to keep Scout's we've trained and developed with care participating in the program in much greater numbers beyond age 18. It's a tragedy that so many leave Scouting perhaps for decades until they have children interested in becoming Tiger Cubs. Offering a more meaningful leadership role in units might keep the interest of those people in a good community and program and benefit everyone. That's worth considering in my view.

Sounds like a street gang.

This website arranges for volunteer buglers to pay taps when a veteran who has died has a family that makes the request. Buglers are notified of such requests in their area and volunteer when they wish to perform the service. I imagine that pretty frequently the vet is a Scout, and perhaps a Scouter too. http://www.buglesacrossamerica.org/ Please review the bugle request below and click the link below if you are interested in playing for this event. If you can not accept this request, please do NOT respond to this email. If you wish to volunteer, click on the link below ... please do NOT respond to this email. Event/Deceased Name: funeral/James M. Izett Branch: US Army Rank: not sure Funeral Site Address: Maple Leaf Cemetery, 1961 NE 16th Ave. Oak Harbor, WA 98277 Funeral Date/Time: 5/7/2011 2:00 PM Additional Notes: Jim, my father, was a veteran of World War II and fought in the Battle of the Bulge. I can provide information about his rank at a later date. Thank you. Volunteer for this request

Hello Beavah, I'm a pragmatist. How many times have you had an 18-20 year old you would have picked (and the COR would have picked) as a SM had you been able to do so? Would this opportunity result in more Scouts staying with their troop and a part of Scouting in your opinion? Frankly, if BSA reduced the age to 20, 19 or 18 I wouldn't wring my hands. But how much of a difference do you think it would make?

> Sad. But all too common. Still, a troop like that can be converted to regular Scouting when a motivated leader comes, along, as you demonstrated at least in part. I'm sorta surprised the other adults let a subversive influence like Kudu get his nose in their tents, or whatever they camp in. Congratulations on a noble effort, Kudu!

Hello Teacher Scout, I am glad to adopt your suggestion of age 30 as a point when a personality becomes mature. Still, people continue to adapt to circumstances well beyond the age of thirty, whatever you want to call that in your theoretical model.

I'm not an Xpert on your question, but I'll mention an issue I have as a unit leader: The pocorn sale is a small business, but my council doesn't provide expert guidance in how to run that business effectively. Some units do VERY well, other do poorly. It's pretty much left up to each one to figure out how they do things. That's wasteful, in my view. The council or district will get better results if it exposes the best and most effective ways to do things, especially how units can motivate boys and parents to sell and how parents and boys can be effective sales agents. To that end, as district Cub Scout Roundtable Chair, my plans are to devote our August Roundtable to bringing in the unit leaders with the best sales program and the Scouts with the best sales results to explain to the rest of us the methods they use. In particular, the Scout who sold the most ($4400) in the council last year is in the pack for which I'm Commissioner. He's a great kid and son of the Cubmaster, and I hope to hear his sales pitch. The family wanted a vacation to Disneyland, and by gum they are GOING thanks to winning the council sales contest! And I'd like to hear from other units about how they divvy up popcorn sale profits to help Scouts finance Scouting activities and such. In general, the ways they manage their sale to be effective. Another thing you might consider is to ask units to take responsibility for doing certain tasks needed for the popcorn sale so you don't have to do them all. If units get used to doing those tasks once, they can do them each year and become experts in doing those tasks, so you aren't left trying to build a new popcorn sales organization every year. Also, if you have a well oiled district machine it will be easier to find someone to run it next year or the year after when you leave. If you have units take responsibilities for tasks, you will be able to identify the people who do a quality job and recruit them to tak more responsibility in the popcorn sale next year or to run it.

> If you are in a position where you either listen to a speech or are subject to being disciplined, discharged, jailed or otherwise penalized, you are in a captive audience. If you attend a social gathering, you run the risk that there may be things on the agenda you didn't come to hear. Tough. Raising money for charitable causes should be a fact of life for adults. Heck --- the CUB SCOUTS have better reasons to object to hearing a pitch that isn't even directed at them. I often spend time visiting the websites of councils and districts across the country. MANY of them are struggling in ways that damage or weaken their program. My district raised $57,000 this year almost entirely through unit solicitations. I helped out with that as both a unit leader hosting a solicitation and as a FOS pitchman. People had no obligation to contribute and I made that clear. I didn't invite people to get up and leave, but no one was chained to their seat. FOS is VITAL to the continued success of my unit, district and council, and I'm going to support it. If someone can't stand listening to a pitch and lacks the gumption to get up and walk out ---- tough. Personally I DO walk out on Scouting speeches when they get too annoying. My sympathies to Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts who perhaps can be regarded as a captive audience since they may be required to sit through bad presentations like it or not.

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> Ummm. I don't believe you are strengthening your case with remarks like this. An 18 year old is probably just emerging from the care and protection of their family --- or perhaps the harsh exploitation and abuse of their family. They are just at the point where the individual himself is making choices about how to live their life, based on their own wise or foolish notions, which will be refined over the decades to come. Instead of the family, the world is going to be the new place that you live. It may be harsh and unforgiving. It may be a cornucopia of delightful experiences. The world is very likely to have a significant impact on your behavior and personality. Psychiatrists usually make a large part of their income coaching people in how to change their personalities. Just as an example, there is the Britney Spears effect. As long as she was under the thumb of her family and mother, Britney Spears had a remarkable career earning hundreds of millions of dollars by the time she was your age. When she became legally an adult and more importantly liberated from the discipline and control of her mother, she was free to express her personality and use her money and personal liberty according to her own choices. The result---- disaster! In the next few years you will likely discover that many of your high school classmates go through meltdowns much like Britney between age 19 and 21, and 21 and 30. They will get involved with crime, drugs, girlfriends or boysfriends that are no good, get head over heels in debt and a variety of other problems. By age 30 or so a lot of those people will have figured out ways to manage their lives effectively in a disciplined way. It's not surprising you don't understand that --- you haven't lived and seen it yet. I like to suggest that you can divide people into three basic groups: 1. A relatively small group who learn from books, parents, teachers, Scout Leaders, clergymen and similar people about how to ive their lives. 2. The majority who learn from their (our) mistakes. 3. Another minority --- who NEVER learn. Personally, I consider myself in group #2 ---for most things. I'm in group #1 for some things and group #3 for a few. You may be in Group #1, or you may simply have lived in a protected environment of family, school, church and Scouting, and not yet been tempted and tested by the world, just as Britney had not been tested at your age. Too early to say, really. By age 21 more data will be in. Unfortunately, there are a very wide variety of ways to screw up your life. By age 21 you will be wiser about life. Wiser yet at 30 and 40. By age 50 and 60 you will be able to look at the things you did with your life that were wise and foolish with a degree of objectivity, since you wont be the same person you were when you were younger. You wont really understand that for another thirty of forty years though. Sigh.

Here's a good list of Adavancement Chair responsibilities: http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Unit_Advancement_Chair I especially like the idea of doing a board of review for boys who aren't advancing. I wouldn't badger them, but find out what their goals are, what they would like to do, any barriers that prevent them from advancing and how they feel about the troop and the troop program. Taking a friendly interest in the Scouts.

Well, how do you teach adults too? Two and a half years ago I volunteered as a Tiger Cub Den Leader fopr a pack that was struggling. They had failed to form a Tiger Cub Den the previous year, and another failure might well finish off the pack, which had just recently been revived anyway. So I was Den Leader and wore a full uniform to den and pack meetings. I was the only uniformed adult leader. A month or so ago I was invited to the Webelos crossover. The pack now has about sixty boys, and all the adult den leaders appeared to be in uniform. I'd take credit for that, except that I did the same thing in another pack, which remains small and struggling and the two den leaders I have as CM aren't uniformed --- not yet anyway.

Nice idea, and good execution. The problem is likely to be promoting it and getting people to use it. What about Cub Scouts! Good Cub Scout activities are not just destinations, but programs that include visits to cultural features like libraries, tours and activities like hot dog roasts, but I find that a lot of pack programs are slow to realize that.

Hello bear dad, Can you describe the zip line and how you use it in some detail? That sounds like fun! Off the cuff, it would be exciting for Webelos to zip line their way into their new troop rather than walking over a bridge.

Hello BS-87, I don't think there's any question that having units assemble an audience for a FOS pitch can be an effective way to get contributions. And it's not a "captive" audience --- people can walk out if they wish. Packsaddle makes a useful point on other ways to solicit donations though--- Our previous Council Executive gave an awesome FOS pitch while training FOS presenters. Suppose he made a video pitching FOS that was sent to parents who hadn't made a FOS contribution? Monthly or quarterly, perhaps. You could send that as a video to those who had e-mail addresses registered with the council. Send it (or a sutable variation) to those who have been FOS contributors in the past but are no longer registered Scouters or parents. Worth a try, anyway. Incidentally, in addition to unit FOS pitches, our council does several breakfasts and lunches which sell seats for $100 or more and have sports figures or other community names making pitches. That supplements unit pitches. Our district raised $57,000 for FOS this year, making our assigned quota. Pretty much all from unit solicitations. We have twelve districts in the council. Personally I like the idea of having a district FOS breakfast or hitting up service clubs and such as well --- supplementing unit pitches with hitting up the broader community. If I were the district FOS chair, I'd probably leave the unit solicitations to the DE to organize so he has something to do with his time (Heh, heh!), and concentrate on developing new solicitation methods for the district to supplement the unit solicitations.

I don't claim to know THE reason. I was trying to think of SOME reasons that might justify such a rule. Most youth are living with a parent or guardian at age 18. By age 21 they probably have experience living on their own and being responsible for themselves. They don't have parents regulating their behavior. So ---- by age 21 they probably have a character track record to evaluate. Are they a responsible person or have they turned into a basket case like Britney Spears?

I'm a stuffer while backpacking. I have a stuff sack larger than that that came with the tent, which makes stuffing fast and easy, then I cinch up the straps that hold the tent on the top bar of my Kelty frame pack. The straps easily compress the tent. When stored, I air out the tent and then stuff it in a large stuff sack. For those of you who are folders, what do you do with your sleeping bag?! Rollers or stuffers? Do you fold your tent and roll your bag? Sheesh! What a bunch of neat freaks!

I did get help from my neighboring Scout Troop in promoting Cub Scout Day Camp at our Monday Pack meeting. The Scoutmaster and five Boy Scouts came over and did a skit, which was nice. I had gotten approval from the OA Lodge adviser that this could be considered an OA activity at which OA members could wear their sash, and had so advised the SM. However, no one wore a sash, although I see quite a few at Troop Courts of Honor. Oh, well.

BSA requires a minimum age of 21 for most unit leaders. This has been raised as an issue in another thread. Is this justified, and if so why?

Hello Jamist, I hope you explained that the FOS presenter did a poor job. You might consider finding someone in your unit to make the FOS presentation who could do a better job, and perhaps to serve on the district FOS committee to help make presentations to other units. I had one dud presentation where I got one donation. I was distracted by other activities and just did a poor job. I confessed that to my DE who attended a later unit meeting and did far better. My DE does a very good job. But the best presentation I've ever seen was done by our Council Executive, who did a masterful presentation at our council FOS training meeting. He was REALLY good --- I was looking around for my check book!

> Hello Scoutfish, In my post I noted that exactly the same argument was made for no fault divorce ---- that what someone else does does not affect MY marriage. Except that it did, by profoundly changing the culture and expectations of those in the culture. Now you are repeating the same arguments again, in exactly the same way.

In another thread, someone said that Scout uniforms have a lifetime guarantee. Apparently if the uniform fails, a Scout Shop will replace it at no charge. If they will replace a defective uniform, they should replace a frayed badge don't you think?

> Ummm. His Scoutmaster put him on the list of Scouts eligible for OA election. Frankly, until I read this post it never occurred to me as Scoutmaster that some Scouts may have been elected but might not be notified if they weren't present to be called out. I'm suggesting that there were other possible explanations for not being notified other than malice by the Scoutmaster. #1 on that list would be that it would be an OA responsibility to notify those elected to membership, not that of the Scoutmaster. I see that the OA DID in fact get around to that, if somewhat tardily.

> Ummm. My liberal friends made essentially the same argument about no fault divorce. Does someone ELSE getting a divorce affect YOUR marriage? After forty plud years of experience with no fault divorce and the plague of divorce that has occurred, which has redefined and greatly cheapened marriage, I think the answer is clearly YES. And I personally don't doubt that gay marriage will continue that cultural trend. Already the Black community has 70% of children born outside of marriage. The warnings of about that date back to the Moynahan report of 1965, which was ridiculed and trivialized, but has proven to be WORSE than Moynihan predicted, with Whites and other races following along that trend twenty or so years behind the dissolution of the pioneering Black family. As a practical matter, we have already abolished marriage. If anyone can get a divorce for any reason or no reason at all, marriage is already an illusion. The Black family used to be the rock of the Black community. Now it is the rope of sand that contributes mightily to the dissolution of the Black community. That wasn't the INTENTION of those advocating no fault divorce, but the forces let loose in society continue to undermine marriage, a trend which is going to see college educated White women joining their Black sisters in having children without marriage. Marriage is increasingly seen as being trivial and unimportant, which is why gay marriage is gaining traction. Long term, gay marriage will continue to erode marriage as an institution of society, and liberals will continue to be surprised when that happens. If they can't learn from the last forty years of history there is no reason to suppose than will learn from fifty or sixty years of history either.

There seem to be three breeds of Eagles ---- 1. Those who are self motivated to manage and organize their Eagle project themselves and generally to do their best. 2. Those who have a motivated Troop that manages and organize the Eagle project in significant ways on behalf of the Scout, defining the easiest way to complete a project. 3. Parents who carry their son into the Eagle's nest by providing aid and assistance as needed. I doubt there is a lot you can do about breeds 2 and 3. Does anyone want to suggest additional breeds of this bird? Does anyone care to estimate the percentages of each breed? I recall a parent asking me about whether they should pay for materials for their son's Eagle project, which they could easily do. I suggested that raising the money or getting donations of material was really a part of the project, and the father thought that was a reasonable idea. But how many bother asking?